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post #1711 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 10:47 AM
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I'm sure construction adhesive would be fine.
It won't squeak or rattle or move. That's for sure. Bonding two layers together with PL premium is likely to make the two layers simple act as one.

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post #1712 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 11:29 AM
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You mean the top is slightly out more in the room and the bottom is in more, with the idea of supporting reflection more down towards the floor and not at listeners?
Exactly, the hard waisncot is taperd ~ 1" from the top to the bottom.. directing the energy into the carpet.. look in fun ceiling build.. we also discussed this when I was thinking about a wainscot in my first room..

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post #1713 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 11:57 AM
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what is fun ceiling build ? I'm interested. This is a cool idea. I wonder what it would look like or if it actually would work though ?

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post #1714 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
I'm sure construction adhesive would be fine.
Can I glue a cleat to the floor without something to hold it down while it dries?

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Exactly, the hard waisncot is taperd ~ 1" from the top to the bottom.. directing the energy into the carpet.. look in fun ceiling build.. we also discussed this when I was thinking about a wainscot in my first room..
What wavelengths would this have an affect on? I'm planning for my wainscoting to be 28" or less, so below ear height. I'm not sure I would see a benefit there.

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post #1715 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 02:00 PM
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what is fun ceiling build ? I'm interested. This is a cool idea. I wonder what it would look like or if it actually would work though ?
Fun Ceiling

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post #1716 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 05:19 PM
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Can I glue a cleat to the floor without something to hold it down while it dries?
Without nails or anchors? Sure. Using warped lumber? maybe not. I dunno. MOAR CUTTING!
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post #1717 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll just plan on some anchors. I'm hoping to have some time week after next for moar cutting, but we'll just have to see.

Now that I think about it. I suppose I could just use sections of MDF rather than 2x or 1x to connect the wainscoting to the wall. Moar thinking!
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post #1718 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 07:16 PM
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I'm hoping to have some time week after next for moar cutting, but we'll just have to see.
Unacceptable! I thought you understood that when I was in a productive stint, you were supposed to be too. I'll have my secretary send you another copy of that memo. Also, I'm gonna need you to make sure you fill out those TPS reports. mmmkay?
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post #1719 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Now that I think about it. I suppose I could just use sections of MDF rather than 2x or 1x to connect the wainscoting to the wall. Moar thinking!
I was going to suggest using the scrap from your riser / stage builds vs. fresh dimensional lumber . . . but I didn't want to incite your OCD itch!
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post #1720 of 2038 Old 07-19-2014, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Unacceptable! I thought you understood that when I was in a productive stint, you were supposed to be too. I'll have my secretary send you another copy of that memo. Also, I'm gonna need you to make sure you fill out those TPS reports. mmmkay?
I used to sit by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were married……. wait, that's not right. I figure as long as I finish within a year of you, I'm good right?

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I was going to suggest using the scrap from your riser / stage builds vs. fresh dimensional lumber . . . but I didn't want to incite your OCD itch!
yeah, I can't really argue with you there. You never know when my OCD is going to make me completely unreasonable

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post #1721 of 2038 Old 07-20-2014, 09:12 AM
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How long have you been at this build?

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post #1722 of 2038 Old 07-20-2014, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I would say I got started around September or October of 2012, though I'd been planning this room for years before that. It's amazing how much of that planning went up in smoke as soon as the room was framed. Some things you just can't plan for until the room is framed, then the plan sort of evolves as you go. HVAC was a good example. I thought I'd have plenty of space in my soffits to deal with it. Yeah, not so much. I was planning for a fairly elaborate coffered ceiling, but just didn't end up with the ceiling height because of the riser. And so it went, and is still going.

It's a little discouraging that it's taken this long to only be where I'm at. I keep telling myself that the next step is the last really big hurdle, then the following ends up taking even long. I'll just keep working on this one bite at a time, though To be honest, if I had been able to just spend weekends, or even afternoons from 5 o'clock to 10 o'clock working on the room, I'd have been done a long time ago. With kids and works and school, I have so little time to spend on it the it's hard to make any progress. It's been fun, though, and I'm really looking forward to that first movie

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post #1723 of 2038 Old 07-20-2014, 12:30 PM
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I hear you. I'm glad you share all this because I am about to start my journey and it's nice to see a real world example and calibrate my expectations. Right now I'm sorta stuck in the mud because I am buying a parcel of land from my neighbor so I can make the theater full size (and garage full sized) and still do a mudroom/breezway and add on to our second floor. My theater will be new construction, but it's only part of a larger home remodel project. It won't be my only focus and truth be told it's lower in priority than the master bedroom and bath, or the kitchen/breezeway/pantry add on. The saving grace I think is that my passion and motivation are very high so I hope that carries me home. I'll probably do the theater step by step along side the other parts of the house, but it's certainly going to be finished last. I probably have a years worth of finish work, woodworking, and bar area planned in my head after the room is basically built.

I'm really enjoying watching you work through your build, your space is somewhat similar to mine. I've followed a lot of threads, but I can't say I've followed step by step over time as much as I have with a few of the current ones (like this). Lurking and researching for more than a month or two should be a requirement, it's really a helpful thing. Especially if you are going to try to go at it without professional design.

I'm actually trying my hardest to wait for a plan or making a plan until the room is framed and open studded walls. The way I work is I'm better when I am standing inside and looking around, than when I am on the PC or with a piece of graph paper and pencil. I'm not going to have the framers frame the inside walls of my second floor either, I'll frame them myself because I want to be able to move a wall or make a room a few feet bigger or smaller or closet myself and make the final decision standing inside the room. I have a long list of ideas and "wants" but until I have a room it's really pointless to take things too far. Perhaps it's just me but it seems like a lot of people jump the gun on plans before they should and only need to revise or change things later. I know it's nice to know the size screen, feet from it for first row, where speakers go.. and all that. But really is there any reason you can't figure that out as you go? It's not until you start making columns, risers and screen walls that it actually matters. I'd say half the theaters I've followed had changes during construction for various reasons that did not become apparent until it was time to do it. The end results are all that matter! Keep chasing the goal, you are doing a great job. I really like seeing the progress.

BTW- I PM you a link to the speaker get together with the 1099 and FUSION 12 vs JTR and FUNK audio you might like to see.

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post #1724 of 2038 Old 07-20-2014, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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……..It won't be my only focus and truth be told it's lower in priority than the master bedroom and bath, or the kitchen/breezeway/pantry add on. The saving grace I think is that my passion and motivation are very high so I hope that carries me home. …...

It's a coincidence that you mentioned this. Just this morning I was walking around our house, thinking about the theater, and it occurred to me that I'm very grateful that I didn't try to focus on the theater while we were building our house. I made an effort to focus on every other detail about our home build before I let myself worry about the theater. In the grand scheme of things, we spend a lot more time in the rest of the house than we do in the theater. While I wish it was done, the time I spent agonizing over the rest of the house was time well spent.

I like having a well thought out plan at the beginning because I don't like redoing work. Obviously there's been a lot of that in my theater, but it would have been a lot of trouble to figure out my HVAC penetrations after I'd framed the room and build the soffits. If I hadn't planned out the lighting and the HVAC in advance, I may have built my riser without all the cabling, and I would have been in a tough spot. That said, everybody works differently. Do whatever works for you!

Thanks for the PM! I like seeing feedback and impressions from people I'm already familiar with on the site. Much better than reading a review from some "golden eared" dude I've never heard of before.
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post #1725 of 2038 Old 07-21-2014, 10:54 AM
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I need some feedback from the collective on how to frame my wainscoting. Here's a render. Sorry, I'm not as skilled with TMcGoogle Sketchup. My version gets a little crazy when the lines aren't straight

I would suggest to decide how deep you want your wainscot first then decide on how to build it. 8-3/4" seems deep to me. I have 2" panels on top so I used 1x4's layed flat as spacers. I filled the gaps with pink fluffy. I layed a layer of 3/4 plywood as a base. I added a second layer of 3/4" ply to create the recessed panels. The wainscot finished at 2" and I added a 3" trim piece on the top for a clean transition. I really like the look of the recessed panels.

I would post my design on TMcGoogle Sketchup but I am waiting on the iPad app to come out.

I was REALLY tight on width in my room so I was trying to salvage every bit that I could.

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post #1726 of 2038 Old 07-21-2014, 01:19 PM
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I would suggest to decide how deep you want your wainscot first then decide on how to build it. 8-3/4" seems deep to me. I have 2" panels on top so I used 1x4's layed flat as spacers. I filled the gaps with pink fluffy. I layed a layer of 3/4 plywood as a base. I added a second layer of 3/4" ply to create the recessed panels. The wainscot finished at 2" and I added a 3" trim piece on the top for a clean transition. I really like the look of the recessed panels.

I would post my design on TMcGoogle Sketchup but I am waiting on the iPad app to come out.

I was REALLY tight on width in my room so I was trying to salvage every bit that I could.
Avtexan........

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post #1727 of 2038 Old 07-21-2014, 03:48 PM
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I would suggest to decide how deep you want your wainscot first then decide on how to build it. 8-3/4" seems deep to me.

I would post my design on TMcGoogle Sketchup but I am waiting on the iPad app to come out.
The acoustic treatments like those found in the Savoy Theater require about 8" of depth on the side walls and 12" on the rear wall, if that's the direction JPA is leaning vs. a 2" Quest panel, hence the additional wainscot depth.

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post #1728 of 2038 Old 07-21-2014, 05:52 PM
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8" treatment on the upper walls ?

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post #1729 of 2038 Old 07-21-2014, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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TMcG has the idea. I'm talking to Nyal about treatments. We're just getting started, so I don't have a plan yet. I'm just spitballing at this point, but for planning I'm going to guess I'll have around 8" of treatments on the side walls. It's a compromise no matter which way you go. If you're limited in space, the 2" treatments are the way to go. 6" or 8" treatments operate over a broader bandwidth, but they are still a compromise. You're losing more space, and they're still limited bandwidth. I think Toole recommends treatments about 1' thick. Yes, that's one foot.

Well, I've got space to spare, so I'm willing to give up 6" or 8" on the sides. I can spare a foot in the back if it's necessary. The other advantage for me is I get to pick the most important treatments that fit in my budget. I can put those in, and as the budget allows I can add the less important treatments, and keep working on it until I'm done. I can deal with the elephant one bite at a time.
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post #1730 of 2038 Old 07-21-2014, 08:31 PM
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Sweet!
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post #1731 of 2038 Old 07-22-2014, 06:49 AM
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I like your approach. Seems legit
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post #1732 of 2038 Old 07-22-2014, 06:57 AM
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post #1733 of 2038 Old 07-22-2014, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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We'll only know once everything is together. I'd been considering this for a while, and after reading the Savoy thread, and in particular everyone's description of how the surround effects, well, sounded, I decided to give Nyal a call. I realize dlbeck has quite a bit of processing that I probably won't have, so I don't expect the same results. Still, I'm hoping for something very good. Good enough to at least make me feel like I spent my money well.

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post #1734 of 2038 Old 07-22-2014, 10:43 AM
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The best surround I've heard was always in a larger space, I think you'll be happy. Your room will work well in regard to surround sound. Assuming you get all the speakers setup in the proper spots and calibrated you'll have great surround! I've followed Nyal secretly (stalker!) around here, I once opened up like 100 tabs of his posts from his post history and plugged through them and I was impressed with his knowledge. I've also communicated with him via PM regarding design of my theater and found the same impression.

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post #1735 of 2038 Old 07-24-2014, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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If you guys don't like whining, you might want to skip this post

Nyal finished my layout review, and I got a chance to look that over and talk with him yesterday. First off, Nyal has the patience of a saint. He spent nearly an hour on the phone with me yesterday explaining everything.

His overall review concluded that the layout is "good." Although he did find some things that will need to be addressed. For example, I'm going to have to do some serious contemplation on screen size, and not as a result of PJ brightness, but due to sight lines and ergonomics. There are also some issues with surround placement that will have to be dealt with.

Again, my interpretation is that the layout is good as it is. There's nothing wrong with "good." Unfortunately, I think I'm finally coming to grips with the fact that I'm going to have to make some compromises. I went into this thinking I could build a no compromises room, and then outfit the space with stuff I find on Craigslist until I can afford better. I don't think it's going to work out quite like that.

I can't really put my finger on which aspect has me bummed, either. There's nothing he told me that's bad. Some of the issues are just a result of working around the room. I'm probably going to have to spend a little more to get the design finalized, which I'm not super excited about, but I'd rather take care of it now than wish I'd done it later. I just don't have a feel for what to expect from these compromises. I don't have any experience here, and I'm afraid I'll be disappointed when it's all done.

Enough of that! The good news. Based on Nyal's recommendations, I'm zeroing in on speaker designs. Obviously they'll come from the DIYSoundgroup offerings due to cost, but he gave me some valuable info to help with my decision. Hopefully I can get my selections finalized in the coming weeks. It will likely depend on what is available, and when. Once a decision is made, I'll probably order speakers so that I can assemble them and get some measurements for Nyal.

Once we get the surround locations dealt with, I'll finalize the layout in the room, decide on wainscoting dimensions, and I can post a final layout and hopefully start building in the next few days. I'm really excited about that. As a wise man once posted in my thread, MOAR CUTTING!
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post #1736 of 2038 Old 07-24-2014, 09:18 AM
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Having a pro is always a plus, even when it costs more. He knows where to prioritize, and that's invaluable experience.

Can you give us some more details about the changes you'll need to make before you get to the MOAR CUTTING!?
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post #1737 of 2038 Old 07-24-2014, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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………. before you get to the MOAR CUTTING!?

Wait… What? MOAR CUTTING? I don't understand!?!

Rear surrounds are too close together. If I'd stopped to check this in my models of the room, it would have been obvious. I just never bothered. I'm limited in placement, though, because the door opens into the space where the surround should go on one side. Still, in can be better. Surrounds are also too high in my layout, and the angle needs to be adjusted. This next one is purely my OCD, but the side surrounds are based on the Dolby/THX standards. Nyal said they're fine there, but would have placed them differently if he'd designed the room. From what I've read, I tend to agree. The question now is whether or not to try to move them. Not an easy task considering my cabling is already run.

Finally, either my screen is too low, or my riser is too low. This is another issue that I would have figured out if I'd just taken the time to model it. I always assumed that I would just adjust the screen height once I got everything in. Well, I've got room to move it up (barely), but the issue I hadn't considered is now the front row is going to be looking up at the screen rather than at a more natural angle. Which leads me back to a smaller screen.

Screen size stings a bit because I like sitting close at the theater, but I always end up a little further back than I would like just because I don't want to look up at the screen. One reason for the home theater is I wanted the best of both worlds.

The major concern for me is surround placement. I have no background to draw from, so I don't know how big an issue the surround placement is. Nyal's preference to have them forward carries a lot of weight with me because I'd made it to the same conclusion on my own. He did say it was within the industry guidelines and was fine, but I don't have a feel for the difference in the two positions. Again, a compromise I don't fully understand.

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post #1738 of 2038 Old 07-24-2014, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
If you guys don't like whining, you might want to skip this post

Nyal finished my layout review, and I got a chance to look that over and talk with him yesterday. First off, Nyal has the patience of a saint. He spent nearly an hour on the phone with me yesterday explaining everything.

His overall review concluded that the layout is "good." Although he did find some things that will need to be addressed. For example, I'm going to have to do some serious contemplation on screen size, and not as a result of PJ brightness, but due to sight lines and ergonomics. There are also some issues with surround placement that will have to be dealt with.

Again, my interpretation is that the layout is good as it is. There's nothing wrong with "good." Unfortunately, I think I'm finally coming to grips with the fact that I'm going to have to make some compromises. I went into this thinking I could build a no compromises room, and then outfit the space with stuff I find on Craigslist until I can afford better. I don't think it's going to work out quite like that.

I can't really put my finger on which aspect has me bummed, either. There's nothing he told me that's bad. Some of the issues are just a result of working around the room. I'm probably going to have to spend a little more to get the design finalized, which I'm not super excited about, but I'd rather take care of it now than wish I'd done it later. I just don't have a feel for what to expect from these compromises. I don't have any experience here, and I'm afraid I'll be disappointed when it's all done.

Enough of that! The good news. Based on Nyal's recommendations, I'm zeroing in on speaker designs. Obviously they'll come from the DIYSoundgroup offerings due to cost, but he gave me some valuable info to help with my decision. Hopefully I can get my selections finalized in the coming weeks. It will likely depend on what is available, and when. Once a decision is made, I'll probably order speakers so that I can assemble them and get some measurements for Nyal.

Once we get the surround locations dealt with, I'll finalize the layout in the room, decide on wainscoting dimensions, and I can post a final layout and hopefully start building in the next few days. I'm really excited about that. As a wise man once posted in my thread, MOAR CUTTING!
I've always been under assumption that you had Erskine Group do your layout...........am I wrong?

I've been contemplating using Nyal's services with my recent upgrade for acoustics.........I have another source for speaker placement and angles.

Suspect your encounter was positive.............but acoustic treatments for my situation is nowhere near as complicated as yours. Lucky you.......you have width to deal with thicker treatments.........

Would be interesting to know total expenditures for dback's treatment plan............chicken wire, thick insulation, and wood slats was an interesting combination.
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post #1739 of 2038 Old 07-24-2014, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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You are correct, I did use DE. Side surround locations are based on the Dolby/THX standards, so no issue there. However, there are other standards that indicate there is some merit to moving the sides forward of the listener.

I changed screen sizes against DEs recommendation. That's all on me, although I may go back and double-check the sight lines based on DEs layout just to see how it changes when I go up on screen size.

I'm not sure about the rear surround placement. I know there is a difference between the THX and the Dolby recommendations, but my layout didn't seem to fit either of those. So your guess is as good as mine there, but I'm sure DE had a reason.

I'm also not sure about the surround heights. Nyal's recommendation falls in line with the industry standards, though I haven't read into it recently, and my memory is always questionable. Surround angle is going to be a function of the speaker, and my DE design did not consider the speakers I'm planning to use.

I think DEs layout is sound based on the assumptions he made, I'm just not sure what all of those were. It was a $600 layout, so I can't complain. Unfortunately, the more I learned, the more questions I had. I do wish I'd just contacted Nyal at the beginning, although I didn't actually know he did layouts at the time.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #1740 of 2038 Old 07-24-2014, 10:33 AM
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Is this new layout plan also taking Atmos ceiling speakers into consideration or was it just a review of your current room and the previous design?
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