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Old 04-19-2015, 04:36 AM
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Might do more harm that good. With a toggle rated over 400lbs I think the speaker would have to weigh about 150lbs before it was a real concern.

Pullout of a screw with .75" embedment is probably less than 200lbs (depends on wood species and it's too early to do math!). For comparison, 3/8 lag screw in typical sawn framing lumber is less than 400 lbs.

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Old 04-20-2015, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I Think I see what DW is getting at, and this is what I was originally thinking when I was considering using an MDF square glued and screwed to the wall. Spreading out the load like that puts more of the bolt loading into tension rather than only shearing.

That said, I've been reading up on these toggler bolts, and it looks like they far exceed what I need, and there would be two, and it's double 5/8 DW (as opposed to single 1/2"). I weighed and assembled V-8, and it clocks in at just under 20 lbs.

Another option is to flip the bracket around (use the TV part of the bracket against the wall and the wall part against the speaker). That way I get a wider footprint on the wall and I get to use four bolts rather than just two. The downside to that is I then have to use only two bolts into the speaker. Do people typically just put wood screws into MDF to hang speakers like this, or should I put a nut, bolt, and washer all the way through the box and try to seal it on the inside.

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Old 04-20-2015, 08:57 AM
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I personally wouldn't trust a screw into MDF in this situation.

I would mark the holes on the outside, drill thru and install a hurricane nut. Then use a machine screw to fasten the bracket to the speaker.

You could use a nut and bolt, but that would mean you would have to remove the driver if you ever wanted to remove the bracket.

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Old 04-20-2015, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Good idea on the hurricane nuts!

Any thoughts on whether I should flip the bracket around?

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Old 04-20-2015, 09:07 AM
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It probably makes more sense flipped around but in reality I doubt it matters.

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Old 04-20-2015, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I suspect it's built this way because they expect you to mount it to a 2x4, so the extra flange width would be wasted. I'm feeling like a plan is coming together I wish I'd worked this out before I put the drivers in, though. I hate taking the screws out of MDF and putting them back in.

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Old 04-20-2015, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I've never used these things before, so what do you guys think. T-nuts or hurricane nuts?

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Old 04-20-2015, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
If you're going to use toggles, wouldn't you want to use some hardwood for bracket base.....say 3/4" to set speaker mounting bracket? Router edge with some rollover or design. Does two things, stiffens wall to bracket attachment and strengthens sheer and pullout over larger area. I'd be hard pressed to use toggles on double layer of DW only.

Just saying.......
If you can't find a stud, I agree with DW above.

Or I would carefully cut a roughly 6x6 hole in the drywall (save removed pieces). Cut a piece of 3/4 inch plywood maybe 5 inch wide by 18 inches long. Put a drywall screw into the middle of the plywood (that's your handle) and slide it up into the wall. Adjust the plywood so you have the screw in the middle of your 6x6 hole. You will have roughly 6 inches above and below the hole. Now take a couple of drywall screws and drive them thru the drywall making sure to hit that plywood that's in the wall. Once the screws grab the plywood it will suck it down to the back side of your drywall. I would put 3-4 screws above and 3-4 screws below the hole and into the plywood. Note: if you have multiple layers of drywall, make sure you get long enough drywall screws to get into (or even thru) the plywood. Now remove the screw handle and put the saved drywall back into your hole that's blocked by the plywood. You can put a couple screws to hold the pieces in place. Repair the screw holes and cut lines with drywall compound. You will have a great area to hang the speakers and the weight should be well distributed.

Ps. Just don't tell your wife you're already cutting into the new drywall. They usually don't think that's funny.

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Old 04-20-2015, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I've never used these things before, so what do you guys think. T-nuts or hurricane nuts?
Hurricane nut. Just be sure to put some PL or gorilla glue on it before you seat it. They will spin later on if there's no glue.

edit: I usually use 10-32. Finer thread is recommended where vibration may loosen.

Tim

Last edited by Mr.Tim; 04-20-2015 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:25 PM
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The hurricane nuts and t-nuts all make me nervous. I went with carriage bolts on some of my subwoofer boxes and I think they will be bullet-proof.

Decide how you want to mount the bracket to the back of the speaker cabinet - mark the holes. Drill for carriage bolts and then use a washer and nut on the outside of the cabinet to pull the carriage bolt into the cabinet wall - the head of the carriage bolt will be on the inside and you'll be left with studs protruding out the back to use for mounting the plate of the bracket. A drop of glue on the underside of the head of the carriage bolt will leave no doubt that it is air-tight, and the washer and nut left snug on the outside ensure it is a permanent fix. That would force the bracket off the back of the speaker cabinet by the 1/4" or so of the nut and washer... but that's the only downside I can see. Or your could skip the washer and nut and just permanently mount the bracket directly to the cabinet.

Of course you could do the same thing with standard bolts, but you would want an extra washer for the inside of the cabinet. This cat could be skinned in all sorts of ways. I just like coarse threaded bolts and washers so I can see what I'm doing when I start threads. If you're worried about vibration loosening them, might I recommend a lock-washer (split ring) or some thread-locking compound (overkill)? I would not use thread-lock on a carriage bolt - only on a bolt where I could get a tool securely on the head for removal.

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Old 04-20-2015, 03:53 PM
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HF you are hardcore.

You used carriage bolts for mounting your drivers? I never really stopped to look, but they make carriage bolts that small in diameter?

Definitely another solid way to do things. I'm just a hurricane nut guy after seeing them used in the DIY speaker forum. Plus black cap screws look cool

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Old 04-20-2015, 04:00 PM
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The black cap screws do look very cool. No argument there at all.

I used small 1/4-20 carriage bolts and acorn nuts for the drivers, and large 3/8 carriage bolts for my baffle repair.

Here they are, as current - still unfinished:
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Old 04-20-2015, 04:03 PM
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Ok.. Acorn nuts look cool too!

1/4 would be a #14 screw.. iirc my itty bitty 15's would accommodate a #10 .

Still, I like the idea of a #10 bolt with acorn nuts. I had envisioned 1" of thread sticking out with some gnarly nut on there and was thinking "he did THAT to THOSE drivers?!" I should have known..

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Old 04-20-2015, 04:15 PM
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Yeah, picking the right length is key to the outcome. J_P_A's application is a little less sensitive to that, since it will be behind the cabinet. I still think I might paint them with some black enamel or something before final installation - or maybe bronze or brass or something, depending on how the rest of the finishing turns out.

In regards to picking the right length - don't be flippant about all the bolts in the same bin being the same. I bought 16 after picking the right length, only to get home and find that two were only 3/4" instead of 1"
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Old 04-20-2015, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post
Hurricane nut. Just be sure to put some PL or gorilla glue on it before you seat it. They will spin later on if there's no glue.

edit: I usually use 10-32. Finer thread is recommended where vibration may loosen.

Tim
I'll second.................but I'd make sure hurricane nut and insert has small hole for pin nails. I used insert nuts with subwoofer build and had a few spin on me. Didn't give enough time to have glue set up. Second go around, gave full 48 hours for glue to set and was golden.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:31 PM
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Togglers... snaptoggles. Easier and stronger than the classic toggle bolts.

See Hanging projector - resilient bars, no backer plate
Congratulations on passing your inspection!


I have used the toggler bolts several times in odd jobs with no issues. If unsure, test mount your bracket with a set into some scrap DW or a 2x4. I think you will be surprised how well they hold.

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Old 04-22-2015, 07:17 PM
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Sherbourn recommends just one rack U above the amplifier. Underneath, the feet height of 3/4" is the recommended minimum if you're just sitting it on a rack shelf. If you've removed the feet for rack mounting, then 1U underneath is what you need. Page 4 of the manual HERE. But if you have the additional rack space, then give it a bit more room.

Congrats on passing all of your inspections! That is a huge milestone.
^This is obviously correct. I knew I had read 2U somewhere, finally found it. Oh well, guess I should have read the manual.

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I see you have the fancy Sherbourn 2U rack fan underneath the amplifier, but ideally you really want to put it ABOVE the amplifier. If you choose not to do this, you need to have a minimum of 2 rack spaces for ventilation above that Sherbourn amplifier and therefore move UP the preamp, Oppo, Monster Power, etc. Another tip is that you really want to have the heavy items at the bottom of the rack...it will make the rack much more stable when you go to move it. I realize you're probably "over' your theater project, but if you get into re-racking, I would make those changes.

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Old 04-22-2015, 07:25 PM
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Old 04-22-2015, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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So, I've got my first Volts together. I've got progress pics in this thread, but I haven't taken a picture of the box with the drivers in them yet. I was too busy plugging them up and listening to them.


You guys ready for my first impressions?????

Get ready....


You sitting down?????

Ok.....


Here we go!!!!

They sound like speakers. I really had no idea what to expect. I was hoping for some religious experience to be honest. My current setup is just a set of Onkyo HTIB speakers that I've been using to listen to iTunes. I set two of my fresh V-8's on the table and in roughly the same place as my previous speakers and ran them through a few songs. My first thought is there is no improvement in bass, which is to say there's really not much. What they do play sounds good, and I guess now I understand a few more of the superlatives that are used to describe speakers. I could certainly make out more in my music that I hadn't noticed before (all those details, right), but if I'm honest, I think I would be disappointed if I had paid $1k/speaker and this is the difference that I heard. The differences are very subtle to me. Very disproportionate to the cost differential. The two V-8s with enclosures probably cost more than the entire HTIB that I'm using as a comparison.

This is not to say that these speakers don't sound good or that I am displeased. I just don't have a lot of experience with different types of speakers. And I may very well be the wrong demographic for doing speaker reviews. To me, these just sound like speakers. I only had about 20-30 minutes to listen to them, and I've been pretty tired (and cranky), so my impressions may change as I get more time with them. And don't forget, these are just the surrounds! I think I will be very happy with these as my surround speakers, particularly at the price I paid for them!
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Old 04-22-2015, 08:51 PM
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We have to keep the use cases for the speaker's in mind:

These are to be used with subs. How they play e.g. 45hz is as irrelevant as how a tweeter plays bass. And for this design, it's just as impossible. It sacrifices extension for sensitivity. If one wants deeper extension (for a lower crossover), one needs a bigger or less sensitive speaker.

They are about the most sensitive surrounds I have found.

They have even off-axis response, which is nice if some seats are closer or way off-axis. In my theater rebuild, a door ended up where the sides should be, so forgiving placement is helpful.

I don't know how low distortion, high fidelity it is. But the above features for me are what's attractive. I agree...just setting them up as bookshelves directly in front of me, not playing loud to keep up with SEOS, I'd wonder what the big deal was too.

But unless one is looking for a surround speaker with more envelopment (bipole), I haven't found a better surround.

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Old 04-23-2015, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't disagree with any of your points just relaying some thoughts. Despite my best efforts I've been building up my first experience with high(er) end speakers for a long time. I started planning this build back in 2008 or so. So I've had a lot of time to think about it. I didnt really "expect" there to be a lot of difference, but I think I'd started "hoping" for there to be

You do bring up another good point. I played these at various levels, and that may be the place where there is a distinct difference between the Volts and my Onkyo speakers. I could turn the Volts up a lot more without them becoming uncomfortably loud. The volume is the same, it's just not uncomfortable. I'm hesitant to give this a name since I have so little experience, but I suspect you pros know what I'm trying to say here.

I'll reiterate, I'm very pleased with these speakers!
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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So far I think the Volts are a solid surround choice. Fortunately for me, I'm not much of a critical listener, anyway dont get me wrong, i am anxious to hear those Fusions, but I am really looking forward to the 80 Hz and below stuff!

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Old 04-23-2015, 07:26 AM
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Get your fusion 15 built then set up proper then report.


I'd place the Volts at the bottom of the sound quality totem pole so I'm not super surprised by your reactions. They are mostly hype driven, or size/cost driven in their continuous recommendation.
They will do the job for surrounds but I wouldn't want to listen to critical music with them.

I think perhaps you are victim of being on the forum for years and seeing one after another person exclaim how amazing their new DIY group speakers are- to which they have no serious point of reference to make an intelligent observation or comments. Most of them are coming off a pair of Polk bookshelfs or a HTIB like you- so some of the impression is real, but very much of it is also just excitement for their new gear with no other related point of reference to calibrate their compass. I think especially when you pour your own sweat equity into building it, the honeymoon phase is significant and the emotion of them just making sound brings out some euphemism that isn't entirely accurate. In contrast, you seem a little more level headed and numb to this- so while you are really happy with the results you are also slightly saddened you didn't have the profound religious experience that others have exclaimed too. I think I understand what you are saying- they are good and you are satisfied, but the experience was less than what some others have reported.

Keeping things in reality- for the price those are a nice speaker. There is only so much a paper eminence cone can do for about $50 wholesale each. The tweeter is rather small, and the crossover is pushed up a bit so it doesn't mask some of the nasty cone breakup quite perfectly. They could perhaps be improved for a few bucks with a bigger CD, and a lower XO. If you keep your point of reference realistic I think they are a good speaker- but certainly not a profound religious experience delivering design. $50 paper cone. $20 tweeter. Half the cost is MDF, CNC and shipping, with a few parts and a tad of profit thrown in.

I'm really anxious to hear you run them up against the FUSION 15- and report on that. There is not a lot of FUSION 15 out in the wild really or a ton of subjective feedback on it- but it would be interesting to me to hear what you think of those compared to the VOLT speakers.
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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."

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Old 04-23-2015, 07:42 AM
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You should copy pasta that awesome write up and documentation here from the speaker build thread.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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Old 04-23-2015, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I could turn the Volts up a lot more without them becoming uncomfortably loud. The volume is the same, it's just not uncomfortable. I'm hesitant to give this a name since I have so little experience, but I suspect you pros know what I'm trying to say here.
Yeah that's the typical response to switching to either:
  • Speakers that can take more power, and you provide sufficient amplification for your desired volume level.
  • Speakers that are more efficient, so you don't need to send them as much power.

Either way, the speaker and amplifier are loafing along.
As a result, you get unclipped dynamic peaks and less distortion.

The epiphany is how much most speakers do distort when driven hard. And how what previously you just termed "too loud" was actually "bad and loud" or "bad because loud".

Inherent Timbre, Distortion, etc.
The above is drive level-related characteristics. You don't notice that stuff at lower levels...only when you stress the system.

The Mfusick is probably talking about is the inherent timbre, distortion, dispersion characteristics of the speaker. These show up at any drive level.
This is the bulk of most speaker reviews.
You can judge these by listening, of course. And you'll see these aspects in impulse response, frequency response, polar plots, etc.

Certainly better crossover components and more expensive drivers can vary this, for a higher price.

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Old 04-23-2015, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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You should copy pasta that awesome write up and documentation here from the speaker build thread.

Ask and ye shall receive. I wrapped my volt build log in spoiler tags so you don't have to scroll through it if you don't want to. It's rather voluminous as far as forum posts go

Spoiler!

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Old 04-23-2015, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Had to break the previous post up into two to meet forum guidelines...... Prudes
Spoiler!
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, it's been a rough go in the Plains Theater lately. I'll start with the end and see if any one has any suggestions. I finally got around to hooking up this new Marantz SR5008 receiver. Unfortunately, as soon as it activates the speakers (you can hear a click when it turns "on" the speakers) there is a loud white noise sound. This is not your typical EMI hum, either. This sounds like a pink noise generator you would use to level match your speakers. Not quite 75 dB, but it's pretty loud.

I can turn up the receiver and it is playing whatever I'm feeding it. I've tried multiple circuits (and a UPS) and even tried running the speakers off one of my separate amps using the Marantz preouts, but it's still making this noise.

It's way louder than I would expect from a ground loop or something like that. Any thoughts?

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Old 04-25-2015, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Well, it's been a rough go in the Plains Theater lately. I'll start with the end and see if any one has any suggestions. I finally got around to hooking up this new Marantz SR5008 receiver. Unfortunately, as soon as it activates the speakers (you can hear a click when it turns "on" the speakers) there is a loud white noise sound. This is not your typical EMI hum, either. This sounds like a pink noise generator you would use to level match your speakers. Not quite 75 dB, but it's pretty loud.

I can turn up the receiver and it is playing whatever I'm feeding it. I've tried multiple circuits (and a UPS) and even tried running the speakers off one of my separate amps using the Marantz preouts, but it's still making this noise.

It's way louder than I would expect from a ground loop or something like that. Any thoughts?
Visited Roger Dressler's room today and he has devised a switching box changing audio codecs.........ie. Atmos, DSU, and Auro. Each switch in format generated a loud click........................maybe a switching issue? Just a wild guess since what you are describing is what I heard this afternoon.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I appreciate the feedback. Whatever it was seems to have spontaneously resolved itself. I unhooked everything and took it to my living room. No issues in there. Took one of the Volts from the theater, again, no issues. Took everything back to the theater and hooked stuff up one piece at a time. Everything is now connected as it was before, and everything sounds fine.

No idea what was going on. I'd rather be lucky than good any day, though

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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