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post #2611 of 2638 Old 02-04-2016, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
Oh, I forgot to say: some of this (even a lot?) may be in fact due to the subs. Look at Mike's graphs. Do they look like chrapladm's?


I don't know what features of the horn or its construction contribute to the variations from predicted behavior - but maybe you have for whatever reason an example that maximises those variations?
Construction of the horn could surely throw the tune off. The measured response of the sub is showing ~6dB between peak and dip (assuming 80Hz xover).. the room is showing ~15dB.

Also a good reason to measure the subs in free air If you're really hard core about getting the room right, drag one of them outside and do a measurement.

Good to have the data going in. Which is why I say the room modes should be calculated What are the exact measurements of the room?

Tim
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post #2612 of 2638 Old 02-04-2016, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post
Good to have the data going in. Which is why I say the room modes should be calculated What are the exact measurements of the room?

Tim
IIRC it's 18'8" by 32'4" by 9'. (Huge) the way I figure, room mode calculations should be verified; that's what I am trying to get J_P_A to do.
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post #2613 of 2638 Old 02-04-2016, 06:03 AM
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Hey JPA.. Rooms is coming together nicely..

The room simulator in REW 5.0 has always amazed me..

Not necessarily as a "point A" to "point B" map but more as a compass to help get me going in the right direction..

Once you pick the Mic/MLP position, You can easily move subs without back strain to see a generalized result.. and play with absorption coefficients on individual walls..

I think I have your rough room dimensions below... the simulator predicted a dip close to what you are seeing..


Playing with the simulator I think you'll see:

-there are only minor improvements available by moving the subs along the front wall.. (not saying you wont see some improvement).. My guess is since the 2 subs will co-locate.. exhibiting single sub behavior, the changes are minimal.

- as you mentioned earlier increasing the rear wall absorption will bring down the ~ 40 & 70 Hz peaks and bring up the 50Hz dip.

- Option 3 for smoothing, although possibly not viable in your situation, would be a mid wall sub.

Anyway.. the simulator is free and not very taxing from an time/effort standpoint..

And yes.. I did stay in a Holiday Inn recently..
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post #2614 of 2638 Old 02-04-2016, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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WOW!!! You guys have been busy while I was away! I like it

Depending on where/how you measure, the room is about 29.8'x18.4'x8.7' plus another 2.4'x10.6' area at the back. There's the wainscoting, the soffit, the stage, and riser that all affect that.

HF

Sounds like a great idea to me! I have another thread started where I want to track progress as I add treatments (linky), and one thing that I'm trying to decide on there is choosing an array of measurement points. The catch is they need to be repeatable over the several months it will take me to actually add the treatments. In addition to that array of measurements across the seating positions, I'll also plan to walk around the room and try to get an idea of what the modal distribution looks like as you suggested. That's a good idea!

I don't recall reading anything about a recommended sweep duration. I'm guessing adding to the duration will increase the spectral resolution, which we may or may not need, but hadn't considered the impact on measuring ringing. I'd like to get the measurement parameters set early on so that I can repeat my measurements consistently as I add treatments! Any suggestions on where I can look for guidance on that?


Mr. Tim

I was planning to drag one of the subs out and test it in the yard, but after emailing lilMike a bit he didn't think it was necessary. Short of something wrong with my build, he felt pretty good about the measurements that have been made already. Maybe I wimped out, but it sure didn't take much to talk me out of dragging that behemoth out to the yard! If an opportunity presents itself, I may still do it. We'll have to see.

HF/Mr.Tim

Part of the reason I like this forum is all the different viewpoints make me reconsider the things I just accept at the first past. These dips are an example. I immediately jumped to room modes being the cause of it, but after what you guys are saying I think I need to dig into it a bit just to make sure.

KNKKNK

I didn't know REW would do that! You may have mentioned it before, but I've slept since then. That's almost scary how good that is. It's pretty commonly accepted that to get any sort of accurate prediction of the room in the modal region requires some pretty fancy analysis software. For REW to do that out of the box is astonishing. I'm going to have to play with that a bit and see what I come up with. It will be interesting to see how it holds up to testing throughout the room.

Thanks guys. Keep the feedback coming!

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post #2615 of 2638 Old 02-04-2016, 08:10 AM
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Too much going on here to comment but some good conversation and progress it looks like.

Paul,

I would focus on getting the room near 100% and fully measured, treated, and all that. Then you can tackle the nitty gritty with tuned absorbers and all that.

If you need help with a helmholtz resonator let me know. But my gut feeling is that it's not worth the trouble to go with tuned bass treatments. Some of the horn wonky is just a horn being a horn, some of the other is going to be your room being a room. My gut tells me when you get everything settled in you should be able to treat it in other ways.

I think in this day and age I am of the belief that more functional and variable is an electronic tuned bass treatment system, rather than a physically passive one. (Although I do not have totally sufficient personal experience with this yet to confirm it's true) ^

My thinking is that a tuned bass treatment can work great when (A) you really understand the problem and solution. (B) you build it properly to treat that specifically. There is a journey to get there first, so my advice is basically make sure you arrive before you start with all that. The problem is that if you are off in the build, or the calculation, it won't work as well as intended, and the other side of the problem is it's mostly a one trick pony.

An electronic treatment could be a very modest sealed sub, located properly, with DSP to fix the phase or cancellation or whatever. Yes this is quite challenging too, but you have a lot of options and upgrade paths. You can try many different settings and locations and really settle in on a great solution, and if you ever undo it, or decide to go another route the worst case is you have a couple cheap subwoofers as spare. You can use EQ and DSP to run a sub out of phase as an active bass treatment. While this takes understanding, it's not beyond you at all, and if it does not work you are not fried just yet. You can move it, or try something else, and continue to learn and progress.

MiniDSP board and a ($60) sealed infinity 1260 12" sub in a $20 box is all you need. That is $60 for a woofer, $20 for wood and glue, $80 for DSP board (or get a amp plate with cat5 and remote into that, or just buy a basic DSP enabled amp...etc...etc...) You can get digital DSP amps that do well for this for a cheap price. I would try to get something with network or USB function so you can remote into the DSP from laptop while doing the set up and settings.

You might find a smoothing sub makes a good enough improvement. If it does not, convert it to an active bass treatment system. It can work in both directions.

But - again get all your other treatments and set up stuff situation before you worry about this. These are calibration things you typically should do after your theater is "done"

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post #2616 of 2638 Old 02-04-2016, 08:22 AM
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And I should mention that my thinking is that $300 or so spent on a very high value sub/DSP to be used as an active bass treatment, or a balancing sub is worth the cost in comparison to the effort to design, and build, test, install- and validate a tuned bass trap. I do not get the sense the budget is a huge problem for you, so the time spent might be a bigger problem? If so, at least you won't waste any efforts if something goes amiss.

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post #2617 of 2638 Old 02-05-2016, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Time is definitely a limiting factor. I've got time to do hour projects here and there, but I can't set aside enough time for a major build right now. Heck, right now I'm rushing this post b/c my work is piling up behind me!

At any rate, I like the idea of a smoothing sub, but I'm seriously limited on placement options. I did play around with the REW simulator, and found something quite interesting. It looks like my MLP is much better suited to a front back setup of my subs. Once I've had a chance to do a little measuring, to verify that this is modal issue, I may try to wrestle one of my subs into the back of the room. Getting that thing up and over the wainscoting and then back into that corner is going to be tough to say the least. However, if this simulator is correct, this would be a big improvement on that dip, and it dealing with those peaks is much easier with EQ than dealing with the dips.



My back hurts just thinking about this! It could be worse, though..... I could be trying to build a laminated LVL in-place overhead Know anybody crazy enough to try that, Mfusik?
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post #2618 of 2638 Old 02-05-2016, 08:34 AM
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I'm not sure that's too much better. There's a 30dB swing in the modeled response.

I would try flipping or moving L/R one of the subs. Seems to be the path of least resistance. See what happens. Also you could try firing it up or forward. Won't fix a length mode, but may even it out a little better.

Filler subs are great, but you have to be careful mixing designs. IIRC horns may be 180 out of phase with a portion of the response of a sealed sub in a lot of the cases. (edit: mike pointed this out above).

I mixed horns and sealed subs but I used the sealed subs to fill in under 20Hz.

I even out the response of my horns with DSP.

Tim
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post #2619 of 2638 Old 02-05-2016, 09:21 AM
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The good news about balancing subs - especially in a case like this where output is not stretched to be adequate - is that they can be band-limited. Phase is pretty stable in the horn across this band, I think, so as long as the other sub's are also phase-stable in this band, there should be no issue.
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post #2620 of 2638 Old 02-10-2016, 10:00 AM
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Balancing subs also don't need to be huge hoking subs with extreme LFE, as you really only need response in the areas of concern, and you generally don't worry much about the below 30hz stuff unless it's a huge problem (rare).

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post #2621 of 2638 Old 03-22-2016, 10:25 AM
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update ?

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post #2622 of 2638 Old 03-22-2016, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Not really. I put in a DDRC-88A (uses Dirac Live), and I have to say I can't tell much difference. There is a difference, it's just subtle. Doesn't fit with all the superlatives that are used to describe the changes something like this is supposed to produce. Very much the same feeling I got with my DIYSG speakers working.

According to the folks in the 88A thread, I've got the curves right. I need some time to do some measurements to see what exactly is happening, though. Based on my experiences so far, I'm beginning to think I'm expecting too much out of this whole audio thing

I will say I have a much better understanding of the subwoofer arms race, though. That's an area where you can spend extra money (if you're smart about it) and there can be a significant change that there is no questioning! Whether that change is good or bad is another topic, but you can definitely tell there's a difference.
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post #2623 of 2638 Old 03-22-2016, 10:49 AM
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Dude you are so practical and devoid of emotion and unwarranted enthusiasm I love it!
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post #2624 of 2638 Old 03-22-2016, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Haha! Glad I can be of service in providing a little balance to the home theater scene
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post #2625 of 2638 Old 05-25-2016, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Reserved for pics of current progress:

Nyal completed my acoustic treatment plan. To keep costs down, Nyal did not do construction plans at my request. He did conceptual designs, and left the construction details up to me. This was a huge help to me. He did review my previous layout (at an additional cost) and offered a detailed review with recommendations on how to improve things. It's nice that Nyal is flexible with the level of detail he can provide with his service.



Nyal typically provides more detailed baffle wall drawings but was willing to give me just the details of what needs to go where in order to keep costs down. Again, I know how to build this sort of stuff, I just needed someone with the acoustic knowledge to tell me where it should go. Nyal's flexibility with this really helped me stretch my dollar!









I will try to keep a picture of the current state of the theater on this post.

I've started adding the wainscoting. This thing is starting to look like a home theater!



Also, here's the obligatory Sketchup model. I'm still undecided on the color scheme, but for now I like the idea of a simple faux wainscoting on the lower portion of the wall. I've had to forego the coffered ceiling due to lack of ceiling height on the riser






The Plains Theater - Rule Number One
Don't Buy Equipment Until You're Done!

At the outset of this, I realized my budget was going to be extremely tight. Primarily because I'm currently a graduate student at the moment, and the funds that I'm using for the theater were set aside back when I had a real job. My plan is to finish the room first, and then buy equipment with what's left. Even that's going to be tight, but I think I'd rather build the room right, and gradually add the equipment as I get the funds than have a room that's not built as well as I'd like.


What I'd do differently


I thought I would start a section on what I'd do differently if I knew then, what I know now.

1) I would consider options for a theater space other than in the basement. Yep, that's right! Our house ended up with a large, unfinished attic space above 1/2 of our house. This is where all the mechanicals went, but I've looked around in there, and it really would have a been a nice place for a theater. I realize it creates it's own set of issues, but I would have at least considered this option more thoroughly had I known. As it stands, we built a basement, just so we would have space for a theater.
2) Ten foot walls in the basement. I went with 9' walls because I thought that would be more than enough. However, I will have a 15-1/2" riser, which cuts down on the ceiling height quickly. A 10' or better ceiling height would be really nice!
3) I might consider different options for the theater entrance more carefully. At the time, I liked the idea of entering the theater at riser height, but it forced the riser to be at 15-1/2" when I might have liked it a little lower in order to keep a little more ceiling height.


Index
  1. Exhaust fan arrives. Followed by several posts discussing HVAC
  2. GG tips and application to subfloor DW.
  3. Joist muffler begins.
  4. Started installing clips on the ceiling
  5. Adding fire blocking around the top plate and starting clips on the wall
  6. Channel layout around supply duct penetration
  7. First sheet of drywall goes up.
  8. Plywood for PJ and backer boxes for receptacle and LV conduit. Also includes dead vents for HVAC supply and return.
  9. Relay and schematic used to operate my fan in my deadvent
  10. Drywall and fan install
  11. Door threshold Rev. 1
  12. Door threshold Rev. 2
  13. Soffit Framing begins. Also, Pic of the new A-lens
  14. Sketchup model of soffit. Also BIG's photo of the Utilitech can light I plan to use.
  15. Electrical layout
  16. Deadvent return revised to use a 90 degree register boot.
  17. Stage and riser begin. Slight revision and decking on the stage.
  18. Saga of the noisy fan begins. Includes measurements of the Panasonic Whisperline fan that was replaced by a Fantech.
  19. First hushbox model. A few revisions in subsequent posts.
  20. Here's a Sketchup program that will generate an optimzed cultist. A bit off-topic, but I'll likely be building a LOT of speaker boxes, so this should come in handy



..
Hey you may have answered this before but do you mind me asking what you ending up spending on your build? Trying to create a realistic budget for mine. Thanks!
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post #2626 of 2638 Old 05-25-2016, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't sat down and figured it all up. It looks like my spreadsheet was current up to finishing my drywall and purchasing amps and my A-lens. That total is ~$16,500. Since then I've put in riser, stage, screen, PJ, A-lens slide, DSP, AVR, wainscoting, paint, subs, acoustic treatments, and fabric. Ballpark, I'd say that's another $10,000 if not more. One of these days I'll sit down and go back through my receipts and see where I ended. It certainly costs a lot more than I would have expected, and I bought a lot of my equipment used, B-stock, C-stock, and clearance. I suppose that's part of the reason the average theater build on these forums is 3+ years

Edit: Added a couple more items to the list that aren't included in my spreadsheet price.

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post #2627 of 2638 Old 05-27-2016, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I haven't sat down and figured it all up. It looks like my spreadsheet was current up to finishing my drywall and purchasing amps and my A-lens. That total is ~$16,500. Since then I've put in riser, stage, screen, PJ, A-lens slide, DSP, AVR, wainscoting, paint, subs, acoustic treatments, and fabric. Ballpark, I'd say that's another $10,000 if not more. One of these days I'll sit down and go back through my receipts and see where I ended. It certainly costs a lot more than I would have expected, and I bought a lot of my equipment used, B-stock, C-stock, and clearance. I suppose that's part of the reason the average theater build on these forums is 3+ years

Edit: Added a couple more items to the list that aren't included in my spreadsheet price.
You did well with your budget sir. My theater is ok but not what yours is and it still ended up well over $10K. In the last 6 months or so, I've gotten the itch for Atmos. But then I thought, why not soundproof it and get the Acoustic Frontiers plans as well (I'm a fan of Nyal's theaters). It would cost me almost $20K to do a redo. Ouch! These rooms, if done right, are pricey. Hell, mine is done half right and it was expensive. Every piece of equipment I own including furniture, damn near, I got B-stock and I still easily broke the $10K barrier, and possibly $15K.
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post #2628 of 2638 Old 06-01-2016, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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You did well with your budget sir. My theater is ok but not what yours is and it still ended up well over $10K. In the last 6 months or so, I've gotten the itch for Atmos. But then I thought, why not soundproof it and get the Acoustic Frontiers plans as well (I'm a fan of Nyal's theaters). It would cost me almost $20K to do a redo. Ouch! These rooms, if done right, are pricey. Hell, mine is done half right and it was expensive. Every piece of equipment I own including furniture, damn near, I got B-stock and I still easily broke the $10K barrier, and possibly $15K.
Thanks! Keeping a handle on the budget is difficult with a project like this. It feels like at each step you're faced with choices that can be relatively expensive. Drywall on the bottom of the floor above? Two layers, maybe three? Which clips? Two layers of drywall or three in the room? Pay for having the room designed by a pro, or just wing it? Why type door? Automatic seals or not? Are DIY acoustic treatments good enough, or pony up for the engineered treatments?

Every step you're faced with decisions that affect your budget, and you won't know how they affect your room until it's done. Some of those things you'll never know if they were much of an improvement in YOUR room or not. It's a tough project to manage the costs.

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post #2629 of 2638 Old 07-12-2016, 06:34 PM
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34 months ago, you asked me what my plans were for a hush box. I replied that my plan was to steal yours. The Plains Theater
It seems like you decided that the projector was quiet enough as it is, and a hush box was not needed. You're making this harder on me than it needs to be, you know that, right? (I think I'm about to build one)

Also, this thread needed a bump. Maybe some pictures...
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post #2630 of 2638 Old 07-13-2016, 05:27 AM
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It seems like you decided that the projector was quiet enough as it is, and a hush box was not needed. You're making this harder on me than it needs to be, you know that, right? (I think I'm about to build one).
You build a box. You install cleats. You install the box. You line the box with Linacoustic.
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post #2631 of 2638 Old 07-13-2016, 08:59 AM
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You build a box. You install cleats. You install the box. You line the box with Linacoustic.
I don't think I have executed a project that straightforward. Does not compute...
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post #2632 of 2638 Old 07-13-2016, 11:35 AM
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Honestly, I'd recommend no box. Or at least no box until you have all the carpet, seating and acoustic treatments in the room. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised on how little you hear it. And if you have anything whatsoever playing through the speakers, you definitely won't be able to hear anything. In short, it's easily a 'down the road' project and not something I would build now when there are other tasks to tidy up to finish the room. Just my 2 cents.
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post #2633 of 2638 Old 07-14-2016, 10:22 AM
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+1...I would also recommend no box
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post #2634 of 2638 Old 07-19-2016, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, the theater is working now - though it still needs treatments, a few pieces of trim, and grills/covers for the surrounds. I'm currently working on finishing the rest of the basement, but time is pretty scarce.

I agree with TMcG and dlbeck. Get the projector up in the finished room and then decide if you need a hushbox. The little cup coolers in my chairs make more noise than my PJ set to flame thrower mode. Obviously it'll depend on your PJ, but at least see where you're at before you go to the trouble.
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Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
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post #2635 of 2638 Old 07-22-2016, 08:23 AM
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Get your treatments up.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #2636 of 2638 Old 07-22-2016, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, yeah. I hear ya

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
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post #2637 of 2638 Old 07-22-2016, 11:11 AM
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At least you didn't get PL PREMIUM in your hair last night. (like me)
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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #2638 of 2638 Old 07-22-2016, 11:14 AM
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Right..."PL Premium"


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still
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