The "Bacon Race" Theater / Patio / Bar Project - Page 20 - AVS Forum
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post #571 of 2479 Old 10-14-2011, 12:37 PM
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Looks GREAT!

Thanks Big mouth for telling me about this thread.
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post #572 of 2479 Old 10-14-2011, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by damelon View Post

if I happen to finish with things before it gets here.

I would put money on the room being ready unless they have it in stock.
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post #573 of 2479 Old 10-14-2011, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I would put money on the room being ready unless they have it in stock.

No way am I betting against you, Big, and damelon already owes you...

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post #574 of 2479 Old 10-16-2011, 12:01 PM
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Just read though the thread. Well done guys. Top notch work. It is really coming together and will make a fantastic space.

I know there has been some discussion of Big's pay scale and worth. Here is how I look at any projects cost.

Pick two, because having all three is not an option, or realistic.



Good + Fast = ExpensiveChoose good and fast and we will postpone every other job, cancel all appointments and stay up 25-hours a day just to get your job done. But, don't expect it to be cheap. Good + Cheap = SlowChoose good and cheap and we will do a great job for a discounted price, but be patient until we have a free moment from paying clients. Fast + Cheap = InferiorChoose fast and cheap and expect an inferior job delivered on time. You truly get what you pay for, and in our opinion this is the least favorable choice of the three. Keep up the progress and excellent work.

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post #575 of 2479 Old 10-16-2011, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, I'm exhausted. There will be a lot of great details probably in the next 24 hours about our progress this weekend. As you saw earlier last week, BIG spent a lot of time pre-fabbing the "Red" panel frames and baseboards.

On saturday we went to dry fit most of them with success, though there was a measurement error that caused BIG to have to re-size and bevel the three center rear panels by 1/4" each.

As soon as the first panel was done on Saturday, and we had it on the wall, we knew we had a problem. The light is totally different in the movie room, as well as in that orientation on the wall. In any case... the paint was just not right. It had an orange tint to it while the fabric has a purple tint to it. Instead of an apple colored red we are needing to move more toward a ruby color. That is work I'm going to have to do during the week.

We did a lot of tests with things like the doorknob to make sure it works with the panels as well as some fitting with the panels and doors. BIG took some great photos showing how well they will fit. With a slight notch against the hinges of the door, the panels fit perfectly.

I'll post more tomorrow, I'm so tired. BIG will probably post all of the details tomorrow so I won't need to, plus he has all of the pictures!
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post #576 of 2479 Old 10-16-2011, 08:32 PM
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Just one picture preview

What if you designed the room with 28 inch wide panels
What if you moved the door to coincide with panel locations
What if you got wide throw hinges that allow for an inch of wall treatment



The trim in the picture is the new paint color the columns are still what we determined as too orange of a red.

There will be black panels above and below the red. One on the top and two on the bottom with a horizontal beveled seam. And yes, we will need to cut the molding so we can open the door. Maybe put on a handle.
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post #577 of 2479 Old 10-16-2011, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Just one picture preview

What if you designed the room with 28 inch wide panels
What if you moved the door to coincide with panel locations
What if you got wide throw hinges that allow for an inch of wall treatment



The trim in the picture is the new paint color the columns are still what we determined as too orange of a red.

There will be black panels above and below the red. One on the top and two on the bottom with a horizontal beveled seam. And yes, we will need to cut the molding so we can open the door. Maybe put on a handle.

Awesome.... just awesome.

Follow my thread here
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post #578 of 2479 Old 10-16-2011, 09:03 PM
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It looks like the trim above and below the red panels lines up with the horizontal trim on the columns. That's a really nice detail. Looking awesome!

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post #579 of 2479 Old 10-16-2011, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dwightp View Post

It looks like the trim above and below the red panels lines up with the horizontal trim on the columns. That's a really nice detail. Looking awesome!

I noticed that too... however the OCD/Engineer in me wants the middle horizontal trim on the columns to be the same width as the the trim above and below the panels. Don't get me wrong, the room looks great (and I'd be happy with it either way ) I also like the choice of a more "red" trim color. Good job guys!
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post #580 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 06:24 AM
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WEEKEND REPORT - ALL ABOUT FABRIC PANELS - Part 2

So we started with a pile of frames



Painted them Mouse Ears black



Wrapped and stapled (Porter Cable Upholstery stapler) with fabric. Don't even think about doing this with a manual stapler. My electric was never up to the challenge either.



You see that we added mid span support pieces to prevent bowing. These were just pieces of 1/2 plywood painted black on one side and held in position with the staples.

Then we fitted in the 1 inch cotton insulation, the mid span support was positioned to accommodate a full width piece of the cotton.





We added a belt of fabric scrap to keep the insulation from flopping out as we move them about.



As Damelon mentioned once we had the first one done and propped up on the wall we knew immediately that we had a problem. The columns were too orange. Now at this point we had already invested several hours picking out a color but it wasn't until we had several square feet of the fabric up on the wall that up could tell we had a problem. We pressed ahead somewhat bummed that we had this issue and finished a full section of the red panels so that we could position them and get a good look.



Yup, too orange.

So out with all the paint samples and we found a color that is going to work.

So back to making panels.

The rear wall acoustical plan (BPape) calls for two inches of rigid fiberglass board, two inches off the rear wall, with a paper scrim.

The two inch insulation (OC705) boards



A coat of 3M 77 spray adhesive. Notice we took this outside



on with the brown wrapping paper



and into a two inch frame. These were 4 layers of 1/2 inch plywood.



moved to the wall, you can see with fastened 2 inch furring strips to the walls to hold the panels, these were 2x3s cut down and attached with 3 1/2 inch screws.



Finally it was time to tackle that door section

to the left of the door

we put the insulation on the wall first



then popped on the frame



we will still need to staple and cut out for the switches later,

On to the other two sections.

We had these pesky hinges so we needed to add about 3/16 notch in the side of the panels so they would fit nicely.





on with the fabric






Last shot of the panels is a color test of the new paint and panel molding, we like it.



one other housekeeping detail is the air supply grill, 8 x 24 got painted and installed under the soffit.

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post #581 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 06:37 AM
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Before any one asks - we are going to be using the Gpowers panel attachment method, glue and hold them in place with a few finish nails through the fabric and frame.

We haven't attached anything yet
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post #582 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 06:59 AM
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benefits/drawbacks of your homemade panels vs. going with a fabric track system? Was it a cost issue or were there specific reasons to go this route?

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post #583 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Excellent write up Big. I have to emphasize that the paint color looks even more off in person. Some of the pics show the orange tint to the paint more than others. But the moment we put up those panels we know it clashed. We had originally matched the paint to the panels based off of the light color the fabric reflected in direct light. Unfortunately, that is when the light was perpendicular to the fabric, which does not occur in the movie room. It does not point right at the panel, it comes from above. So the purple in the panels ends up getting highlighted (Although they look just maroon in the pictures here) the orange also gets highlighted from the trim. The new trim looks much better.

I do agree CAK, the engineer in me wants to center the trim on the middle piece of trim, but it won't bug me that much. I can't say enough though how happy I am with how the door section turned out. BIG and I were worried about how much work it would cause, but the panels fit beautifully. Two of them were a little tight, but BIG pulled out the multipurpose Jigsaw and routed a small indentation where the hinges were on the side of the panels. We then just stapled the fabric down in that indentation after wrapping to make sure it didn't rub. Then the panels fit exactly. That's how they could stay on the wall on their own.

The reason we did not mount the panels yet is because of the ribbing. One unfortunate side effect of our column design is that the triple trim sections stick out on the sides of the column. So the bevelled edge of the column slides underneath against the wall behind them. But this causes a problem. Since the top black panels also fit behind that section, they would not be able to be placed above the red panels once the red panels were in place. So the top panels will have to be installed first, followed by the trim, followed by the red panels. Then the bottom trim & black panels, and last the baseboard. If there are any 1/8" measurements, or issues with a non-level floor, this difference will be made at the baseboard and the carpet will slide under it in any case.

So this week I will have to put two coats of the ruby paint on everything. BIG will have to make some extra trim pieces for me, and then I can give those the two-coats as well. So one day of work I'll take off to do the painting. BIG will stop by and work on the door area (The MDF trim outside as well as the fill-in foam and caulk)
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post #584 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nebrunner View Post

benefits/drawbacks of your homemade panels vs. going with a fabric track system? Was it a cost issue or were there specific reasons to go this route?

The fabric pulls better on a homemade panel and will never come loose. If you look at SMX/Sandman's thread, he actually tested the track out first, and had issues making proper corners and the look just wasn't what he wanted. It will be a better looking more stable panel this way.

The drawbacks are what you would expect. Time, and Money. It's much more expensive and time consuming to build these panels. Not to mention you have to have the tools to do it. Air tools & the proper table saws to do the edging. vs getting fabric track, which is very easy. If you do it right you can make it look really good, and a lot of people have done it with success. We're just old school I guess.

A BIG thing I think I would point out about fabric in general... DIRT! That fabric, or painted trim, or anything, will pick up any and every piece of dirt they come into contact with... cotton insulation, sawdust, 703, etc. So it has become a real pain since our movie room is also our only available workspace. If you have another space you can do all of your work in, then DO IT. I'm going to finish clearing out my storage space this week and move our work there so I can clean out the movie room and mop it.
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post #585 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 07:40 AM
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I have just a few hours of hands on experience with the Fabricmate track system. I can tell you that for a theater like Damelon's that it would be a real challenge using the track.

You would really want to do the track and fabric first before fitting in the columns otherwise getting the pizza wheel stuffer tool to maneuver around the ribbing in the columns would be an impossible task.

I also know that the track system would produce a different fit around the door and that wood panels will be tighter.
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post #586 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 11:43 AM
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Looking good guys, this is my favorite part of the builds, watching so many of the finishing details all come together in a short period of time.
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post #587 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
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J



Good + Fast = ExpensiveChoose good and fast and we will postpone every other job, cancel all appointments and stay up 25-hours a day just to get your job done. But, don't expect it to be cheap. Good + Cheap = SlowChoose good and cheap and we will do a great job for a discounted price, but be patient until we have a free moment from paying clients. Fast + Cheap = InferiorChoose fast and cheap and expect an inferior job delivered on time. You truly get what you pay for, and in our opinion this is the least favorable choice of the three. Keep up the progress and excellent work.

Regards,

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Something must be wrong with my build - Mine seems to be ending up Slow and Expensive and the "Good" still remains to be seen. I thought you could have any 2 and so far I'm 0 for 3.
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post #588 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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News Updates:

Screen Arrives 10/19!
OPPO BDP-93 Ships tomorrow

BIG coming 10/19 to drop off all of the wall chair trim and work on the door, while I will paint all of the trim pieces (And columns/light tray if they aren't already painted by then)

People have started receiving the Sony VPL-VW95ES direct from Sony so hopefully I'll be able to read a few user reviews on it in the next week. This may very well be my theater's projector!

Returned my carpet samples today and took the new paint swatch to a few carpet stores. So far most of the red "patterned" carpets aren't even close. There is a normal red carpet that is pretty close, but I think I may be back to a black patterned carpet. Mohawk had a few I liked. I'll try to post some pics of samples later.
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post #589 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 03:17 PM
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Looking great guys and going super fast. I can't help but feeling a little jealous of how fast this has gone as it causes me to reflect on how slow I have been moving.....

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post #590 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 03:35 PM
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Rather than repainting everything, could you just put a faux finish of some kind on the columns and other trim? It would darken them up a bit, and as long as you use at least one color that matches your fabric it should look fine.

Don't know which would be quicker in the long run.

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post #591 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Before any one asks - we are going to be using the Gpowers panel attachment method, glue and hold them in place with a few finish nails through the fabric and frame.

The idea of gluing anything to drywall just has such a finality to it that it gives me the willies. :-)

This weekend I had an idea about installing the panels using countersunk magnets mounted to the frames and then running thin steel "bands" (think 1 X 3 only a few centimeters thick) along the perimeter of the room screwed into studs. In theory, you'd have a great degree adjustability and plenty of time to get it right (not the case with Liquid Nails).

The pull force on one of these 1/2" x 1/8" Neodymium magnets is 13 pounds so if you put one on all four corners, that should be plenty strong enough to hold up a fabric frame and not vibrate with the bass. Upside? They're not permanently attached so you can take them on and off and if you fall out of love with them, it would be fairly easy to undo all the work vs. wood glued to drywall. Only downside could be the cost but maybe you can get away with smaller magnets. I'd have to do some tests to know for sure.

I don't know, just throwing that out there fully aware that someone has probably already tried it. :-)

Here's the magnets I'm talking about:

Neodymium Countersunk Ring Magnet 1/2" x 1/8"
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post #592 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I like the idea of magnets myself. Though the counter-sinking would be a pain with the panels we have made already. You could even put magnets in the strips of wood trim and then the entire wall could be adjusted as we see fit.

EDIT: Looking at places like K&J magnetics, countersunk 1/8" magnets look pretty intriguing.... especially some with a LOT of pull force. I DO wonder if that would work. A LOT less messy and future adjustable.

I think the glue is going to be even more of pain. To be honest the first few "quick nail it" tests we ran didn't even go through the frame... no idea what happened to the nail. I liked the original "Industrial Velcro" thought Sandman had, but that gives 0 wiggle room. Once the velcro touches you can't really adjust, and we WILL need to adjust. All of the other methods allow adjustment (Glue, Magnets, etc). With the baseboard and the trim nailed firmly in place though, I dont think it will take much at all to get them right. Every fabric panel will have a piece of nailed trim below it to support the vertical force.

As far as the carpet goes, here are a few more dark ones I saw today:

East Village - Tuxedo


Greenhurst - Ebony
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post #593 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damelon View Post

EDIT: Looking at places like K&J magnetics, countersunk 1/8" magnets look pretty intriguing.... especially some with a LOT of pull force. I DO wonder if that would work. A LOT less messy and future adjustable.

I'm just coming out of the drilock/rigid foam phase this weekend - framing will begin next weekend - so you have plenty of time to prove the concept for me. I'm already stealing your soffit so I owe you that much. Chop! Chop!

EDIT: It's called "steel strapping" and you can apparently buy it in rolls of 25' with predrilled holes. Cut it with tin snips and screw it to the wall. Paint it with the drywall and I'm thinking you'd be good to go. Here's a picture:

Steel strap
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post #594 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damelon View Post

I like the idea of magnets myself. Though the counter-sinking would be a pain with the panels we have made already. You could even put magnets in the strips of wood trim and then the entire wall could be adjusted as we see fit.

You can get steel cups that increase the magnets' holding power dramatically. Here's an example:



Link: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...=1,42363,42348

Would you have to worry about magnet-to-steel rattle when the room is energized at low frequencies?

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post #595 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
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I liked the original "Industrial Velcro" thought Sandman had, but that gives 0 wiggle room. Once the velcro touches you can't really adjust, and we WILL need to adjust.

May I ask why the velcro gives 0 wiggle room? I would think it would yield the most. I used speaker grill guides (ball and sockets)from partsexpress for the removable panels on my columns and was planning to do the same on my screen wall but they are somewhat time consuming to install etc. I have been considering velcro (stapled to the panels as well as the framing on the walls and boom. If it isnt perfect just pull it off and reattach. Help me here?

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post #596 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 06:02 PM
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That East Village Tuxedo looks really nice. The magnets are a very intriguing idea and would they not lend themselves to easier changes in the future if you were so inclined?

Very nice work and your speed of progress is to be envied, however you do have Big on board and not Logan so quick and proper progress it to be expected.

Love to column details and how the trim pieces all meet up. Well done.

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post #597 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
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Would you have to worry about magnet-to-steel rattle when the room is energized at low frequencies?

Not the way I'm envisioning it. You'd take a 1/2" spade bit to the corner of each frame to make a 1/8" deep hole. Drop one of those magnets into the hole and attach it with a screw (the magnets are countersunk so the screw should be flat with that surface of the magnet). Then you stretch your fabric over the frame - magnet and all - and staple as you normally would.

In short, the fabric should dampen any rattles as it prevents metal on metal contact. The problem is this is all theory right now as I've never experienced the actual force of these magnets on steel, much less through the varying thickness of fabrics.

I also still think this could be prohibitively expensive at essentially $2/magnet shipped. That's $8 per panel assuming you only put a magnet in the corners and I'm not counting the metal strapping on the walls.

If you only have 12 panels in your room that's about $100 in mounting hardware which is affordable, in my opinion, especially for the convenience. If you have 40 panels? Liquid Nails probably starts to look appealing again.
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post #598 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 06:04 PM
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I see no problem in installing the panels perfectly the first time with a room wide laser level. The real issue is whether you want to be able to remove the panels with minimum drywall damage in the future.

Velcro is pretty much out of the question as with this design we need to slide panels under the column ribbing to position

Ball and socket is out also

Magnets are a legitimate option the only issue is that once the trim molding is secured all the panels with the exception of the bottom of the two black panels (there are two horizontal panels below the red) are pretty much trapped in place. So one way or another if the panels need to come off there will be surface drywall damage.
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post #599 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Velcro is pretty much out of the question as with this design we need to slide panels under the column ribbing to position.

My opinion is only that - I've never even seen a panel like these in person - still it seems to me that especially for panels partially behind/under other pieces, like column edges and molding, velcro should work well as long as there is no velcro along the edges and corners that have to slide under another piece.

If an edge of a panel is behind a column, couldn't the panel be held securely without velcro within 6 inches of the edge? Maybe the column fits so tightly to the wall that the panel has to be flush against the wall to slide into position? Maybe a small finishing nail could be hidden at the bottom edge for the panel to rest on, if the holding power is a problem - it wouldn't even have to protrude out the full thickness of the panel.
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post #600 of 2479 Old 10-17-2011, 06:37 PM
 
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What is the kraft paper for in the absorption panels?
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