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post #541 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

Strange indeed.. Maybe you should have your water tested. It's uncommon to have copper tube fail on city water. Even in the case of galvanic corrosion it's usually not the copper that fails. I wonder if you have some stray current going through the piping.

It's also weird that you have two failures so close together. The question is: What's changed?

Tim

The plumber said the same thing. Maybe I will have the water tested. Nothing has changed as far as I know. It's strange.

Bud
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post #542 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 05:46 AM
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Hey Bud,

Great score on the score board (no pun intended). I know how frustrating it can be to deal with HVAC as I went though three or four contractors all with varying ideas and prices. Can be very frustrating for sure. Glad you are getting it sorted out. That is strange on the water leaks. I have had my fair share of water issues, they make me very uneasy. I would definitely find out what is going on there.

On the thermostat, it may be 4k res, but what's the screen size? LOL

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post #543 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 09:58 AM
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How much for the Golden Tee that the scoreboard is leaning on...???

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post #544 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

Good news though, I scored a scoreboard on ebay for the basement. It's a little rough, but I should be able to get it to work. It came out of a sports bar in Cromwell, CT called "Rookies Sports Bar and Grille", apparently they got bought out or something. A consignment place had it (looks like they've got some other stuff too) and had it in the "scrapbooking" section on ebay. Got it for a steal using esnipe. It has the controller with it as well. I called a friend of my brother's who picked it up for me today. He'll bring it to my brother (also in CT) who will give it to my father-in-law (also in CT) who will haul it down to KnoxVegas this summer. smile.gif



Looking forward to cleaning it up and hanging it. Boy, I hope the buzzer works, that'll scare the crap out of my guests that sleep in the guest room in the basement, huh? tongue.gif

Bud

I think you should hang it over the headboard in the master bedroom.
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post #545 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jikkjack View Post

How much for the Golden Tee that the scoreboard is leaning on...???

Jason -

Here you go. Golden Tee info

Pretty soon you need to come and and we'll have a drywall party. smile.gif

Bud
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post #546 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I think you should hang it over the headboard in the master bedroom.

That's hilarious! I really, really, really doubt I could get away with that. tongue.gif

Bud
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post #547 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

That's hilarious! I really, really, really doubt I could get away with that. tongue.gif

Bud

It'd give a whole new meaning to sudden death overtime...
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post #548 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 05:59 PM
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I think you should hang it over the headboard in the master bedroom.

Haha, good one - how about adding the hockey game air horn too?
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post #549 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farkem View Post

I think you should hang it over the headboard in the master bedroom.

Talk about pressure! biggrin.gif

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
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post #550 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I should have gotten the one with the 30 second shot clock instead. wink.gif

Bud
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post #551 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 07:45 PM
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To chime in on pinhole leaks and copper failing. I did not read all of the thread but If I recall it first happened on a recirculating line. Actually this is a very common issue. the circ pump is a run 24 hour a day seven day a week pump i am assuming, that is 8 times or more the amount of water flow through your water heater and through the piping than with no recirculating line. Get an aquastat for the circ pump and then you may want to test the chlorine level of your water. this will obviously not reverse the damage already done it will however slow the rate of further damage.
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post #552 of 778 Old 02-19-2013, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

Maybe I should have gotten the one with the 30 second shot clock instead. wink.gif

Bud

LOL!!!!!

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
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post #553 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 05:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intricate1 View Post

To chime in on pinhole leaks and copper failing. I did not read all of the thread but If I recall it first happened on a recirculating line. Actually this is a very common issue. the circ pump is a run 24 hour a day seven day a week pump i am assuming, that is 8 times or more the amount of water flow through your water heater and through the piping than with no recirculating line. Get an aquastat for the circ pump and then you may want to test the chlorine level of your water. this will obviously not reverse the damage already done it will however slow the rate of further damage.

Thanks for chiming in. I'll look into it.

Bud
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post #554 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

The plumber said the same thing. Maybe I will have the water tested. Nothing has changed as far as I know. It's strange.

Bud

The houses in our neighborhood (at least 3 that I know of not including mine) have had a bunch of pinhole leaks on the cold water lines. We all feel it’s something the county was or was not doing to the water but we can’t prove that. In the end after a number of repairs I decided to re-pipe the entire house with CPVC, no issues since then. Hopefully you are not having a similar issue.

The MacBeth Theater (flood resilient build)
 

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post #555 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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The houses in our neighborhood (at least 3 that I know of not including mine) have had a bunch of pinhole leaks on the cold water lines. We all feel it’s something the county was or was not doing to the water but we can’t prove that. In the end after a number of repairs I decided to re-pipe the entire house with CPVC, no issues since then. Hopefully you are not having a similar issue.

The house has the red/blue supplies (is that CPVC?) throughout the house in the walls, where to comes to the fixtures (I could be wrong), I think they connect it to copper. The hot water recycler has (one one side) the plastic pipe coming in the copper joint that connects to it. The other side if all plastic pipe, including the joint. I'll have to go under some sinks and take some pictures. I assume the plastic pipe comes to copper for the controls behind the shower walls, but don't know without ripping out some drywall.

Bud
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post #556 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 08:52 AM
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Sounds like PEX. In our house they plumbed everything with PEX and stubbed out with a copper line to anything that needed to be "sturdy" like the hose bibs outside or anything that needed to be "pretty" like the exposed lines under a vanity. I think the water heaters also have a short copper line as well.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #557 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 08:57 AM
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post #558 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 09:02 AM
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My house was built in the late 70’s so the entire thing was copper. Where it met faucets and toilets it’s flex line but the “bones” were all copper. We would see sagging drywall and a drip forming and we’d know we had another leak. We’d cut out the drywall re-pipe that section and patch/paint. After about 6 of those I replaced all of it. Luckily for me there was a main wetwall and we wanted to remodel a bathroom anyway so we just rolled it all together.

It sounds like yours may not be the same issue I had. I would have a pin hole surround be green corrosion in the middle of a 8’ run of pipe, the another section in a completely different spot then another 5’ down from the first. Didn’t seem to be a rhyme or reason to where they sprung up. Some far from the a faucet, some just before, but it always seemed to be in the cold water lines if I remember correctly, it’s been about 7-8 years now.

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post #559 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Yup, that's the stuff.

J_P_A - sounds like my house - what about the showers?

Bud
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post #560 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 09:21 AM
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In my house they connected PEX supplies directly to the mixing valve and up to the head in the shower. Same for the tub/showers but they ran copper for the spout.
You didn't ask for pictures, but here they are anyway smile.gif I had to zoom way in on the shower pic, so it's a little fuzzy.



Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #561 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool. Thanks for the pictures. I have one of those scopes that plumbers use (kinda - not on a reel, only a few feet long). I may poke a few holes in my walls to see how they connected the EPX to the shower.

Bud
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post #562 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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So I own the Facebook group for our subdivision. Yeah, its small and I'm a geek. Go figure. Anyway, I posted about having two pinhole leaks in the last month and asked has anyone else had a pinhole leak recently? I got a response from one person who said she had a pinhole leak about a month ago. I asked her what builder it was, it was the same. I asked when the house was built, it was the same. I asked where it was, she said on the copper piece coming from the HW heater (the same - the second time). It was probably the same plumber as well.

Thought I'd share.

Bud
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post #563 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 07:24 PM
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Call that plumber? Maybe he has more info.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -Buddha

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post #564 of 778 Old 02-20-2013, 08:23 PM
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If you have pex in all of your walls and only copper at the circulation lines and out of the hot water heater then it is not likely a source for galvanic action. There are a few reasons pinholes can occur in copper. Electrolysis, turbulence/cavitation, low ph in water, other water quality issues, and good old father time. Since copper in Tennessee has been used a LONG time and if I recall you are in/ near knoxville I am going to rule out father time. Testing the ph of your water is easy but fixing low ph not so easy.

Turbulence and cavitation from the recirc system are going to be my bet. If you do not deburr copper turbulence can form and cause excessive wear.
Also a pump can cavitate and cause excessive wear.
Some linking to water softeners causing early failure on copper is evident.
Reverse osmosis treatment will destroy copper in a very short time frame.

PM me i will gladly take a phone call from you on this subject. I am a professional plumber in Nashville. I left management to being in the service industry because it is what I love to do.
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post #565 of 778 Old 02-21-2013, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

Good news though, I scored a scoreboard on ebay for the basement. It's a little rough, but I should be able to get it to work. It came out of a sports bar in Cromwell, CT called "Rookies Sports Bar and Grille", apparently they got bought out or something. A consignment place had it (looks like they've got some other stuff too) and had it in the "scrapbooking" section on ebay. Got it for a steal using esnipe. It has the controller with it as well. I called a friend of my brother's who picked it up for me today. He'll bring it to my brother (also in CT) who will give it to my father-in-law (also in CT) who will haul it down to KnoxVegas this summer. smile.gif



Looking forward to cleaning it up and hanging it. Boy, I hope the buzzer works, that'll scare the crap out of my guests that sleep in the guest room in the basement, huh? tongue.gif

Bud

It would be really "trick" if you could devise a way to interface this thing with an RSS feed from the game of your choice! Nice find.
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post #566 of 778 Old 02-21-2013, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Call that plumber? Maybe he has more info.
Unfortunately, I don't know who the plumber is - we bought the house less than two years ago.

Bud
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post #567 of 778 Old 02-21-2013, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intricate1 View Post

If you have pex in all of your walls and only copper at the circulation lines and out of the hot water heater then it is not likely a source for galvanic action. There are a few reasons pinholes can occur in copper. Electrolysis, turbulence/cavitation, low ph in water, other water quality issues, and good old father time. Since copper in Tennessee has been used a LONG time and if I recall you are in/ near knoxville I am going to rule out father time. Testing the ph of your water is easy but fixing low ph not so easy.

Turbulence and cavitation from the recirc system are going to be my bet. If you do not deburr copper turbulence can form and cause excessive wear.
Also a pump can cavitate and cause excessive wear.
Some linking to water softeners causing early failure on copper is evident.
Reverse osmosis treatment will destroy copper in a very short time frame.

PM me i will gladly take a phone call from you on this subject. I am a professional plumber in Nashville. I left management to being in the service industry because it is what I love to do.

I make take you up on that, thank you very much. I'm not familiar with cavitation. What is that?

Bud
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post #568 of 778 Old 02-21-2013, 01:00 PM
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I can also speak to water quality / turbulence contributing to leaks in copper.
We sell and install scientific equipment that utilizes water chillers. Our installations are in all 50 states.
Some of these water chillers run 24x7 and utilize water-cooled condensers where city water flows 24x7 to cool the chiller and is dumped down the drain (I know extremely wasteful).

In some locations with poor quality well water; we are overhauling these chillers every few years.
In locations with higher quality water (Chicago area is on lake Michigan water), we rarely have water cooled condenser failures.

A recent failure analysis by the chiller Mfr. showed that a high mineral content combined with higher than normal incoming water pressure actually caused abrasion on the internal surfaces of the cooling lines (especially where the copper bends or is at a junction (or tee). Lowering the water pressure and/or using large capacity particulate filters on the incoming lines can sometimes help.
In extreme cases "marine grade" stainless steel components are built into our chillers.

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post #569 of 778 Old 02-21-2013, 05:44 PM
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cavitation is when a pump is spinning and churning air which happens when a low pressure event occurs feeding the pump. IE the pump impeller is spinning faster than water can feed it. Any kind of propeller can do it.. Boats do it all the time. Boat props have anodes in them to help with the wear of water eating away the metal... so does your water heater. Unless you are Tankless.
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post #570 of 778 Old 02-21-2013, 06:28 PM
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