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post #451 of 1177 Old 04-08-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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RTROSE, don't let your head explode. What follows is totally useless to anyone, except for perhaps myself. Feel free to disregard.

The room is two rectangular prisms - the main part of the room, and the entryway. All these measurements have been corrected to account for the second layer of drywall, not yet hung. All areas are 105 inches tall (before risers, soffits, etc.)

The main part of the room is 142.75 inches wide (you like the ridiculous number of "significant" figures I'm using?) and 256.75 inches long. The floor and ceiling are each 36,651.0625 square inches. That makes the volume of the main part of the room (36651.0625*105) 3,848,361.5625 cubic inches.

The entryway is 59.5 inches wide and 25.5 inches deep, giving the floor and ceiling of the entryway each an area of 1517.25 square inches. The volume then is 159,311.25 cubic inches.

That gives a total volume of (3848361.5625+159311.25) 4,007,672.8125 cubic inches. That's 2319.26 cubic feet (I don't know what I missed earlier). Let's say 2320 cubes.

The former science teacher in me has to mention for anyone who reads this and doesn't understand the use of significant figures that it's fairly ludicrous to pretend that I can know the volume of my room to within a 100th of a cubic foot - my measurements are not that precise, and the walls aren't that straight in the first place.

The right and left walls are effectively identical, at 256.75 x 105 = 26958.75 square inches (times 2)

The screen wall is 142.75 x 105 = 14988.75

The rear wall is the same as the front, except for the extra side wall areas added in the entryway. The extra sides are each 25.5 x 105 = 2677.5 square inches, each (times 2).

Then there's the extra ceiling and floor area in the entryway. 25.5 x 59.5 = 1517.25 square inches (times 2)

Total surface area is ceiling36,651.0625 + entry ceiling1517.25 + floor36,651.0625 + entry floor1517.25 + right wall26958.75 + left wall26958.75 + screen wal14988.75l + rear wall14988.75 + entry left side wall2677.5 + entry right side wall2677.5. = 165,586.625 square inches or 1149.91 square feet. Let's say 1150 square feet.


Mean free path is 4V/(S) 4(2320)/1150=8.0696ft - call it 8.

This is much more in line with what I expected. That number will come down more as the volume decreases due to soffits and riser and stage, which all take from volume, but not surface area.

This is what I call going all mathematics on you. wink.gif


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post #452 of 1177 Old 04-09-2013, 05:47 AM
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Hmmm...and all this time I thought the answer was 42.

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post #453 of 1177 Old 04-09-2013, 01:46 PM
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So what are the bounding values that you would want to see in a home theater?

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!


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post #454 of 1177 Old 04-09-2013, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

RTROSE, don't let your head explode. What follows is totally useless to anyone, except for perhaps myself. Feel free to disregard.

The room is two rectangular prisms - the main part of the room, and the entryway. All these measurements have been corrected to account for the second layer of drywall, not yet hung. All areas are 105 inches tall (before risers, soffits, etc.)

The main part of the room is 142.75 inches wide (you like the ridiculous number of "significant" figures I'm using?) and 256.75 inches long. The floor and ceiling are each 36,651.0625 square inches. That makes the volume of the main part of the room (36651.0625*105) 3,848,361.5625 cubic inches.

The entryway is 59.5 inches wide and 25.5 inches deep, giving the floor and ceiling of the entryway each an area of 1517.25 square inches. The volume then is 159,311.25 cubic inches.

That gives a total volume of (3848361.5625+159311.25) 4,007,672.8125 cubic inches. That's 2319.26 cubic feet (I don't know what I missed earlier). Let's say 2320 cubes.

The former science teacher in me has to mention for anyone who reads this and doesn't understand the use of significant figures that it's fairly ludicrous to pretend that I can know the volume of my room to within a 100th of a cubic foot - my measurements are not that precise, and the walls aren't that straight in the first place.

The right and left walls are effectively identical, at 256.75 x 105 = 26958.75 square inches (times 2)

The screen wall is 142.75 x 105 = 14988.75

The rear wall is the same as the front, except for the extra side wall areas added in the entryway. The extra sides are each 25.5 x 105 = 2677.5 square inches, each (times 2).

Then there's the extra ceiling and floor area in the entryway. 25.5 x 59.5 = 1517.25 square inches (times 2)

Total surface area is ceiling36,651.0625 + entry ceiling1517.25 + floor36,651.0625 + entry floor1517.25 + right wall26958.75 + left wall26958.75 + screen wal14988.75l + rear wall14988.75 + entry left side wall2677.5 + entry right side wall2677.5. = 165,586.625 square inches or 1149.91 square feet. Let's say 1150 square feet.


Mean free path is 4V/(S) 4(2320)/1150=8.0696ft - call it 8.

This is much more in line with what I expected. That number will come down more as the volume decreases due to soffits and riser and stage, which all take from volume, but not surface area.

This is what I call going all mathematics on you. wink.gif

Yes, but will it blend?


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post #455 of 1177 Old 04-09-2013, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Everything blends!


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post #456 of 1177 Old 04-09-2013, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

So what are the bounding values that you would want to see in a home theater?
I'm not the guy to answer this question, but I'll share my rambling thoughts later.


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post #457 of 1177 Old 04-09-2013, 02:27 PM
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When all else fails you can always replace the henweigh.

Thanks for going all edumokational for me. Very interesting. I tend to be math stoooooopid. biggrin.gif

Regards,

RTROSE


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post #458 of 1177 Old 04-09-2013, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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As further preface and a little bit of academic distancing, mean free path is a meaningful consideration in a diffuse sound field. This was not something I had been aware of when I read the brief bit about it in the Master Handbook of Acoustics. It makes sense for it to by bound by that assumption as it was defined by Sabine, as part of his early work on absorption - he needed a way to quantify the importance of surface interactions in order to understand and predict absorption upon reflection. (I'm not in a position to explain that much further, but I might be able to find some reading for you if you're not familiar with Sabine's work - I am only passingly familiar.) An assumption of a diffuse sound field underlies most of his work, if I understand correctly. As with RT60, that makes mean free path a "difficult" concept to apply to small rooms - but mean free path correlates to decay time.

With that out of the way, there's not too much to say about the importance of mean free path. I think, as I suggested earlier, it's generally only useful as a comparative measure. Larger is better. We have a number of logical paths to come to this conclusion, including modal distribution, Haas interval considerations, and probably more. Naturally, there are trade-offs with size - mostly overcome with money. Interestingly perhaps, consumer product marketing never mentions mean free path, but may mention room volume (see THX Select and Ultra certifications, as well as product descriptions from Hsu Research). It seems to me that products matched to application via mean free path would be better matched than products matched to room volume - except subwoofers. I haven't really looked at the numbers, but I think you can see that as room proportions become less regular the difference between mean free path and volume (just as volume vs surface area, obviously) become more pronounced. As example, a narrow long room of equal volume to a closer-to-cube room (say golden ratio) would have speakers much closer to seating positions, and lower needs for amplifiers and so forth. (That's probably a poorly written sentence, but I think if you have a beer it'll make sense - that's how I've written it anyway.)

Anyway, there is no lower bound for mean free path, IMO - just as there is no space too small for a "home theater."

Was that rambling enough for you?


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post #459 of 1177 Old 04-09-2013, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Naturally, there are trade-offs with size - mostly overcome with money.

That's what she said! biggrin.gif


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post #460 of 1177 Old 04-09-2013, 05:31 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^Oh SNAP!

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RTROSE


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post #461 of 1177 Old 04-10-2013, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Snap? Don't mind if I do!

I snapped some chalk lines today. I got started on hanging the second layer of drywall, and took couple minutes to mark the location of the joists before I hung it. That's normally a silly idea, since you cover up the marks you made, right before you need the marks. But, as I think I've mentioned, the room is 12 feet wide (slightly less), and the drywall is ten feet long - so one sheet of drywall doesn't cover the whole joist. If you move the sheet of drywall out into the center of the room - about 10 inches from each wall - you can still see the ends of the chalk lines. The chalk lines also make it easier for me see the unusual pattern of joists, and plan my placement of drywall. But wait, why would I want the drywall out in the center of the room? Won't that make it harder to cut in all the small end pieces? Well, yes, that means more cutting of smaller pieces for the ends - BUT! all the end seams will be built into a soffit, never to be seen again. Here's what that looks like:


Over the last couple days I also took the opportunity to fill in some of the big nasty gaps in the wall around the pipes. I had to cut the nozzle on the caulk to a bigger opening to get the "bead" to lay down thick enough to fill in. I also had to do it in two stages in some places - it's a lot of caulk. (That's what she said.) Seen here from two angles:


The rest of you slackers need to get to work! (except you, RTROSE - you've "finished" I know. ...Oh, SNAP! What about those absorption panels you were working with? How's that coming?)


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post #462 of 1177 Old 04-10-2013, 08:00 PM
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Looking good my friend. Caulk can cover a multitude of sins, so caulk away, excessively if you must! I'm still working on some ideas, however I have been sidelined on some outdoor yard work now that the weather is FINALLY starting to break and be somewhat warm on a consistent basis. The panels are still on deck. I'm pretty much going to go horizontal, and then some smaller square-ish shaped panels below the chair rail, and depending on how much 703C I have left will do the ceiling, front, and back walls.

Fun stuff!

Regards,

RTROSE


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post #463 of 1177 Old 04-22-2013, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Much like RTROSE, I have been sidelined by other things. I'll get some inside work done and proved (photographed) soon, but something came up i'd like some opinions on.


I'm a reluctant landlord (read: 30k upside down on my old house) with good tenants. The reversing valve in the heatpump went out and I just got the estimates.

Option a) replace the valve and associated parts $1050
Option b) replace the heatpump (very old) and air handler $2350
Option c) upgrade to 13 SEER puron unit with air handler $3500.

What would you do? And do you know if I'm elligible for any tax credits if I upgrade to the hi eff unit?


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post #464 of 1177 Old 04-22-2013, 12:29 PM
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I would take the strategic approach and go with option b. You'll have a warranty on the unit so you know you won't be facing any further repairs. Plus, for the $1300 differential, you can use that as a selling point for the house when you reach that point. I could easily see you getting "dinged" for at least that amount on any offer to buy the place for the full value of a new system.

That being said, if you are required by code to upgrade to the more efficient 13 SEER unit, then I would take the opposite approach and just go with the $1050 band-aid fix to get things running again. Maybe a licensed technician on Craigslist could handle the repair for much less....OR....since you are a mechanic, perhaps you could barter an exchange of services through Craigslist to help save some $$$ and make it a parts-only affair. Just a thought.


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post #465 of 1177 Old 04-22-2013, 12:30 PM
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AFAIK they don't sell anything less than 13 SEER, so I don't know what that could possibly be an upgrade from. You certainly won't get any tax credits for 13 SEER. I think there are tax credits for higher efficiency units.

If the tenants pay electric I would just replace the valve. If you pay the electric I would upgrade. At least it's deductible.

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post #466 of 1177 Old 04-22-2013, 01:35 PM
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AFAIK, the tax credit would be $500 at most (unless you go geothermal), but I think it only applies to primary residence. Unless you plan to sale the house soon, I'd probably go with the option B as well.

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post #467 of 1177 Old 04-22-2013, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I was doing a little research and got some other opinions - looks like J_P_A is right about the tax credit. The federal credit requires the property be my primary residence, and I don't think Georgia or Georgia Power are offering any incentives.

Having had the repair guys out at least once in each of the last five or six years, I'm leaning toward b. That was the response of both my sister and my boss. I can't see getting the $1200 extra for the puron unit back on resale, while I think advertising a new unit may help with a sale. I'm hoping to sell as soon as possible (read: as soon as I can break even on it), but I have confidence that my tenants will stay through the summer of 2014 - so I'd like to make sure they have a reliable unit (for the sake of both parties).

I misstated earlier a little. I wouldn't be getting whole new air handlers (that's probably not a surprise to anyone who has priced this before), but with the cheaper option - b - I'd get just the new pump with drier, installed. Here's that pump. http://www.catalog.payne.com/gen/proddesc_display/1,3006,CLI1_DIV69_ETI4701_PRD1411,00.html With the puron unit, I'd get a new pump, fan coil, heat strip, and thermostat. Here's that carrier unit. http://www.carrier.com/homecomfort/en/us/products/heating-and-cooling/heat-pumps/split-system-heat-pumps/product---split-system-heat-pumps---25hbc3/

I don't know. The new fan coil and heat strip might be a good step toward continued/improved reliability.

Thanks for the feedback guys. The Mrs and I have some talking to do.


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post #468 of 1177 Old 04-22-2013, 07:39 PM
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I too vote option B (if the lines are still open). When I did some HVAC work to my basement before my build and then when I replaced my system last summer I some (ok a lot) of research into what system to get. What I learned by general consensus was if you were going to be in your home five years or less then a basic to medium system was the popular way to go and when you sold your home you could indeed say "new HVAC" installed X years ago. If you were going to be in your home longer than five years it made more sense to spend more to get the very high or ultra high efficiency units because in the long run the units would pay for themselves in the long run.

That is why I would suggest option B. You have the advantage to say "New" but you are not out the cost of a higher efficiency unit that may or may not be able to pay for itself over the duration (which is a moot point if you are not paying the electric anyway. A 13 SEER unit is not that "top of the line" anymore, in fact around here in Indiana it is pretty much the standard basic unit. For reference my AC is a 19 SEER unit and when purchased was the highest SEER unit Carrier made.

Be sure you double check with your utilities, my electric and gas suppliers offered discounts/incentives for the heat, AC, and my programmable thermostat.

Good luck.

Regards,

RTROSE


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post #469 of 1177 Old 04-22-2013, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks RTROSE - I knew you were an uncertified A/C consultant. wink.gif We've discussed it and decided to go with B. The carrier unit isn't much more efficient, and I certainly don't want to spend the extra money. Both of those units are pretty much the most basic and smallest units available from those manufacturers.

I will call and check with the power company, just to be sure.


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post #470 of 1177 Old 05-03-2013, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I've not really talked here much about the aesthetic plans for the room. It's been an evolving idea in my head for a while; I see bits and ideas here are there (mostly here in the forums) and sometimes the ideas stick, and sometimes they don't. I began really liking the idea of walls of fabric frames - GPowers' theater is awesome looking. I've liked a lot of what I see in BIGmouthinDC's theater as well - it's refined and masculine, but not bland. Meanwhile, I have other influences. I have liked the idea of a little more personal expression - maybe getting some art on the walls.

Recently, the Mrs and I have begun more serious conversations about what the theater will look like. She had previously not interested herself in it - mostly leaving it to me, imagining that the acoustic concerns I have will dictate most of the design. After we talked some, she began to see how much freedom we have to chose finishes and colors while satisfying my needs for stable acoustics and light control. Also recently, a restaurant opened nearby that has really struck our fancy. The design of the place suits us very well. In some ways, the interior decor of this restaurant has become a central point of inspiration, and I wanted to bounce a few ideas off you all. I'll try to post as many pictures as possible, but I'm just getting started with this scheme, so I haven't done much searching.

The root of what brings me to finding inspiration in this is a casual interest in steampunk. We're not the sort to get really drawn in to anything in particular, so I wouldn't go in for really committing to a themed room - you know, like the theaters you see designed by "designers" not home owners, where they really build a "bat cave" or the bridge of the Enterprise. Those have their charm, but that's not for us. Instead, we more interested in moderation. But the steampunk vibe can be integrated into some DIY sorts of things that interest me, and creeps into the design of Argosy (the restaurant I linked to above). So those two seeds come together to lead me to where I think I'm headed.

Here's the overview image of the dining room at the restaurant. You can make out some of the things I'm thinking of using, like the light bulbs (which they have even use more or less the way I plan to in the rest rooms (no picture)). They also have cool custom stained glass over the bar and hand-carved mermaids in the woodwork over some of the booths.



I only have a few elements in mind at this point, but here they are. In chronological order as they occurred to me.

First, iron pipe light fixtures. They can be mounted to either vertical or horizontal surfaces and I can make them as large or small as I want. Maybe branched or weird, maybe short and simple, maybe some of each. I'll put the vintage Edison incandescent bulbs in them.

Simple


Complex


Other


Second, leather (or vinyl). I'm not sure that I can make this work. I may cheap out and just cover some surfaces in velvet or paint them, but I was hoping that I could get some diamond tufted leather on a proscenium that would match a diner booth in the next room, near the "bar" and popcorn machine.



Third, brick. I was at dinner last night, and it occurred to me that brick might be a nice extra texture. After we watched Hannibal on TV the other night (probably the best network TV show currently broadcast) and my wife commented that all the sets are decorated with interesting wall surfaces, I was looking at walls from a new perspective. It seems reasonable to me to use a brick veneer on the rear wall. The absorption coefficient is almost identical to drywall. It will add even more mass the the wall, and maybe I can continue it in places in the bar area, to tie them together aesthetically. The image I'm posting is obviously not a wall, but it reminds me that the bricks wouldn't have to appear monolithic and can be used in making shapes or patterns. I'd go with a darker brick, I think.



Lastly, wood. This is another idea that comes from Argosy. They've used reclaimed (or at least reclaimed looking) slats or floor boards for some of the walls. I like the way it pairs with the brick, and I can do it myself. It gives me a warmer wooden look without investing years into woodworking tools and finishing. My brother-in-law recently finished one wall in his dining room in a similar way.



None of these example images is exactly what I'm looking for, but each is close in some way. I'm not very happy with the way they look together here on this page, but I feel pretty confident that they will work together much better. I'd be very interested in anyone's thoughts. Is there a design element that I should add to these to bring them all together? Is one of them out of place?


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post #471 of 1177 Old 05-04-2013, 10:36 AM
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That would be really tough to "get right", both from visual and acoustic perspectives, but I know you are up to the challenge!

There seems to be two popular books on Steampunk design you may want to add to your library for design ideas:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Art-Donovan-Art-Of-Steampunk-2012-Used-Trade-Paper-Paperback-/380526556857?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item58992676b9

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steampunk-The-Art-of-Victorian-Futurism-by-Jay-Strongman-/310661799054?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item4854e2dc8e


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post #472 of 1177 Old 05-04-2013, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the links, and for the vote of confidence. I think the visual challenge will be to pick a few moderate elements that work together to make a cohesive and expressive look, without drowning in minutia and work I have niether the time nor skill for. I'm not too worried about the acoustics - it was always going to be an iterative adaptive process for me.

I'll look into those books and keep an eye out for more images to post for design reference.


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post #473 of 1177 Old 05-04-2013, 01:05 PM
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I think you should really go with the "Steam Punk-Lite" Theme. If I ever build a new theatre from the ground up that's probably what I will do.

 

I always thought some steel trusses would be a cool design element in the ceiling and maybe as columns!

 

 

 

 

You could use something like this as columns with AT cloth on the inside and speaker hidden.

 



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post #474 of 1177 Old 05-04-2013, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Whatever it comes out like, "lite" will be the way to describe it, i'm sure.

The steel truss is something I wouldn't have thought of. It'd have to be either easily assembled, like tinker toys, easily cut, or not actually metal. I do like the idea, maybe for the face of soffits. Or like you said, columns.

Thank you!


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post #475 of 1177 Old 05-04-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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My sister-in-law was good enough to take some pictures of the light fixtures in the bathroom at the restaurant.



They don't use incandescent bulbs.



I've been thinking about maybe some copper reflectors of some sort. Probably not like this, but if I can find them, maybe.



Probably something hammered and riveted.



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post #476 of 1177 Old 05-04-2013, 08:28 PM
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Nice! remember seeing similar reflectors on ebay last year.


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post #477 of 1177 Old 05-04-2013, 08:45 PM
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Yeah unless you could find some scrap that worked I would think using wood and PVC pipe or the like painted to look like metal would be the way to go. Also I would lean towards bronze and copper type finishes!

 

Cant wait to see what you come up with!



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post #478 of 1177 Old 05-04-2013, 08:59 PM
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Man you really inspired me here, I think I am going to remove the shades on all my sconces and chandelier in the theatre room and replace the bulbs with the Edison style. I was browsing 1000bulbs.com and found this picture. Kind of the idea of what I was trying to suggest.

 



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post #479 of 1177 Old 05-05-2013, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

They don't use incandescent bulbs.



I

What kind of bulbs do they used, Fred? I like the shape.


Tim

ICC Certified.


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post #480 of 1177 Old 05-05-2013, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Tim, I'm really not sure. When looked very closely at the bulbs in real life, I saw that the glass was frosted. At the end of the bulb near the base, the frosting stops and you can tell that the light source is not a filament. I thought it looked like a CCFL tube inside the globe, but I could be wrong. Also, I am nearly 100% sure that they are dimmable - the lighting is fairly dim in the restrooms.

Keep the ideas coming guys, I appreciate it.


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