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post #31 of 1177 Old 11-27-2011, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

... I thank you...

No, I thank YOU, sir.

That sounds like sensible advice. I'll do what I can to remove the corner bead without making a huge mess, and leave the wall on top of the floor. In fact, I'm thinking more and more about leaving the flooring in altogether, and just laying pad and carpet over it, when the time comes. The "meticulous" (there are less polite ways of describing those tendencies ) side of me insists that I don't want it there and that I shouldn't squander the half inch of height... heheh. Then I ask people what removing it will involve, and they don't know - but the fact that it is glued down is a little upsetting.

Anyone who has removed glued-down pre-finished hardwoods - feel free to chime in with your experience.

Fred
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post #32 of 1177 Old 11-27-2011, 08:01 PM
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I don't think getting the flooring up would be too bad as long as you can put some weight behind a flat blade shovel or flat bar. However, getting the glue off the floor can be.......... a pain........ to put it mildly.

I haven't taken up wood floors like the ones you have, but I have removed some glued down parkay (no idea how to spell that). It's the tiles that are made of small wood pieces that form a geometric pattern. That was the easy part. Getting all the glue up was really time consuming. I had to scrape it up using a shovel and drywall knife. NOT FUN!

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post #33 of 1177 Old 11-27-2011, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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You guys are making this too easy. Now with so few decisions to make, I can focus my energy on actually doing something.

Thanks!
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post #34 of 1177 Old 11-28-2011, 05:03 AM
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J_P_A - I think it's spelt parquet.

Like the room and admire the acceptance to get a good finish and quality you need to rip out what's there first. Just remember - the kit can be upgraded in the future when you can afford it, the room needs to be done right first time.

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post #35 of 1177 Old 03-04-2012, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sure most of you who have been reading and posting (thanks!) had forgotten this thread existed, but your return is eagerly anticipated.

So, in the theme of doing the room right the first time, some things have come up. I'm still pulling down drywall (sad face). I've uncovered the details of a few things that obstruct my idealized way forward. I knew they would, but now looking at the rate of my progress, I start to wonder where the balance in trade-offs should be. Clearly, I'm the final arbiter, but opinions are needed!

How much does that soffit get in the way, and how much time would you be willing to put in to get a ceiling suspended from isolated joists, hung on isolated walls (true room-within-a-room)? I'm starting to waver. (and my wife is a little discouraged by how slowly things are going - I am too, but I have more patience still) Please watch the video, and let me know your thoughts. I have more questions for later.

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post #36 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I had a friend in from out of town and we were able to get a lot of work done today. Things went much more smoothly than it has working alone, so we cut no corners and got rid of all the soffit and old framing.

Now it's time to start planning to get rid of the window!

Also, I just received my calibrated microphone and external soundcard, so I will hopefully be getting REW up and running over the next few days. I'm still waiting for a cable or two, but they should be here for the weekend.

Good Times!
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post #37 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 03:19 PM
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Fred, glad you decided to go ahead and rip everything out. I'm one of those that would agonize over the things that I DIDN'T do once the theater was finished. Those kinds of decisions I think are fairly personal depending on your personality.

Keep the pictures coming, you know how this group likes pictures


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J_P_A - I think it's spelt parquet.

You say "parquet", I say "butter". I bet this is the only thread on this forum with a link to that website! You can thank me later, Fred

That's one of those times I really wish I'd took the time to google how to spell it

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post #38 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 03:42 PM
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Tomato tamato, potato patato, parkay parquet



Pick your poison.

I think in looking back you will be very happy you went back to "bare bones" and started from a blank slate so to speak.

I had some help with my theater along the way, but mostly a solo DIY project so I can appreciate having some extra hands on deck to help with the demo.

Quite a woodpile anyway for sure.

Regards,

RTROSE

Oh, and thanks again for your informative post in the acoustical treatments thread.

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post #39 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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So, an engineer friend of mine came out with a strong recommendation for SharkBite fittings and PEX tubing to relocate the water supply line you can see in the video. Anyone have any experience with those?
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post #40 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

So, an engineer friend of mine came out with a strong recommendation for SharkBite fittings and PEX tubing to relocate the water supply line you can see in the video. Anyone have any experience with those?

I love PEX and the sharkbite fittings. I did our whole basement bathroom with them. Super easy to use and relatively inexpensive. It sure beats soldering copper. If you are doing a good amount consider getting the compression tool instead of the snap on fittings because they are cheaper if using quite a few.

BTW I'm subscribed! Can't wait to see this progress.

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post #41 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 04:07 PM
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Yes and Yes. I've used SharkBites, and they are supposed to be rated for in-wall use. However, I've also popped one off and flooded an upstairs bathroom (no fault of the fitting, I just pulled on it the wrong way). SharkBites are quick, and you can take them off if you need to adjust things, but they do make me a little nervous for areas that you can't see or would be a pain to get back to.

As far as PEX goes, it certainly seems to be wonderful stuff. They're using it in my home that's currently under construction, and I've put in a little as well (after I decided I didn't care for SharkBites, despite being my own fault). I was able to rent the crimping tool from the big orange box store. It may have even been a free rental, but I had to ask about it at the service counter as this particular store didn't have a rental center. I had to pay full price for the tool, but I think I was refunded the full price once I returned it.

With all that said, if you are even slightly handy, you can sweat a copper fitting and move that tube wherever you like! If you've never done it before, just buy a handful of extra fittings and some extra tube and practice a few times. Once you get the hang of just how warm the pipe needs to be (you'll know the first time you get it there) it's down hill from there. Also, by the time you bought SharkBites you might even come out cheaper even if you had to buy a torch, solder, flux, brushes, and the sandpaper (you can usually get a handy little kit with most of that stuff in it).

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post #42 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 05:14 PM
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Oh, I am not a fan at all of sharkbites. PVC and glue or copper and solder. One of my major water issues was do to the failure of a sharkbite fitting. Just my one lonely experience, but it was enough to sour me on them.

As they say YMMV.

They are quick and handy for sure, but I'm just a little gun shy on them.

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RTROSE

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post #43 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 05:31 PM
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-goes to check connections in bathroom for leaks-

I used the snap on ones to transition from copper to PEX and then the compression ones for connecting PEX to PEX. I could see why the snap ones might be finicky but those compression ones are on tight. Was your trouble one a snap on RTROSE?

I agree that just using copper might be your best choice, especially if you won't need to make lots of connections. The soldering isn't too bad as long as you can get the pipes dry. If anything it is a good skill to have if you've never done it before.

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post #44 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaustin View Post

-goes to check connections in bathroom for leaks-

I used the snap on ones to transition from copper to PEX and then the compression ones for connecting PEX to PEX. I could see why the snap ones might be finicky but those compression ones are on tight. Was your trouble one a snap on RTROSE?

I agree that just using copper might be your best choice, especially if you won't need to make lots of connections. The soldering isn't too bad as long as you can get the pipes dry. If anything it is a good skill to have if you've never done it before.

Well I can't say for sure if it was the snap on or compression type. It was a job the handyman did for me, one of the few projects I actually hired out because at the time I did not have the luxury to do it myself. I can say that the end result ended up looking like this though.

Clickie

Not fun at all so you can see why I'm slightly gun shy on the whole sharkbite thing. The PLUMBER I had in to redo the plumbing/connections after the issue used copper and solder if that tells you anything. To me that spoke VOLUMES.

I have had my fair share of water issues, I don't want anymore for sure.

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post #45 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys for the experiences. I took my hired hand out for dinner and afterwards we went back in to reconsider the challenges the plumbing were going to cause.

I think we've found two really good solutions to two problems. There's only one problem(?) left (HA!).

The short length of copper pipe that runs under the floor joists in the corner of the room - the one I had earmarked for PEX - is just going to be moved. I was looking at it wrong. I thought it fed water to the guest bathroom, but it does not. It feeds a spigot outside; a spigot that I can put anywhere. So unless there is any code or other real reason no to relocate the spigot to the corner of the house (so that it doesn't have to cross under any joists), that's what I'll do. I'll cut out the pipe, plug the hole, and make a new hole to re-install the spigot. The biggest challenge there will be replacing the cement board siding, but I'll be doing that to plug the window anyway.

The other plumbing problem is a supply line that runs near the large drain pipe (through the old soffit). That line also runs under the joists. There are three places that I can extend the pipes so that the whole problem section gets pushed out of the room entirely. It'll sit above the poured foundation wall, entirely outside my soundproof envelope. The best news about this is that I won't have to worry with any adapters or compression fittings - my brother-in-law is good with sweating copper - and I'll only need a few fittings for the whole project.

The only thing I'm not sure about it the blocking between the joists. The blocking runs in a row down the length of the room - right in the middle. My understanding is that the blocking is there to help minimize flex in the floor. They're not actually load-bearing, but they contribute to the solid feel of the main level. I don't want to get rid of them, but there's going to have to be some way around them. At this point, I'm imagining notching them to allow a place for the new joists to run through them. If someone needs a picture to understand let me know... Is that a reasonable idea?

Fred
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post #46 of 1177 Old 03-07-2012, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW I'm subscribed! Can't wait to see this progress.

Thanks! I hope I can keep it moving (accelerating)!
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post #47 of 1177 Old 03-08-2012, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Keep the pictures coming, you know how this group likes pictures

I almost forgot! You wanted more pictures!

Here's a picture, and a hot tip: demolition can be dangerous!
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post #48 of 1177 Old 03-08-2012, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post


Clickie

RTROSE

Oh that is bad. I'm glad that you got everything back in order fairly quickly though and your insurance was accommodating.

Fred; Is the only reason for relocating everything out of the soffit for soundproofing? And it is my understanding that you will build a new soffit in the room?

In that case why not just box all of that stuff in a soffit now before hanging drywall in the rest of the room? Treat that soffit like the other walls. Hang it from decoupling clips and channel if you are using them and then cover it in two layers of drywall plus Green Glue. Or alternatively make it out of a first layer of OSB and use that as your first layer of drywall. Then you only need one more layer of drywall on top of the OSB. I did this for my two side soffits because they had to box in an I-beam and some ductwork.

I have some pictures and info on how I did it in my build thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1371617&page=2

It's on post 50.

Sorry if you have already mentioned that this is not possible and I missed it.

Quote:
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I almost forgot! You wanted more pictures!

Here's a picture, and a hot tip: demolition can be dangerous!


Ouch. I've had my fair share of cuts, splinters, and bruises. Consider it a sacrifice to the home theater gods. Now your build will go faster.

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post #49 of 1177 Old 03-08-2012, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Fred; Is the only reason for relocating everything out of the soffit for soundproofing? And it is my understanding that you will build a new soffit in the room?

Soundproofing is the primary consideration, and yes there will be a soffit in the finished room - mostly for ventilation.
In fact, I considered just wrapping all that stuff in framing and leaving it fully outside the theater, like you're suggesting. I decided against it because I didn't want to think later that I could have done anything more. That way, if I'm unsatisfied, it'll be because my expectations were too high, not my effort too low. Moving the plumbing is going to allow my to suspend the ceiling from new isolated joists. There will be absolutely no mechanical connection of the framing for the theater to the framing of the rest of the house, short of caulked spaces in door frames, I suppose. (Honestly, I haven't really worked out how a room-within-a-room gets set up against other structures without coupling in those places, but that's a ways off yet. I'll get it figured out before drywall goes back up.)

Thanks for the suggestion. I appreciate it (even though it sounds like I have dismissed it out of hand). The conversation keeps me honest. Also, keeping the conversation moving helps keep me focused and motivated.

I should be honest with myself, and you all - my loyal readers: There will probably be a week or two missing from actual documented progress. My little sister just had a baby today, so from here on out you can call me Uncle Fred. I'm sure between that and borrowing a truck to unload my wood pile, I'll be less productive for a while. Hopefully, I can get some good images together so I can flesh out my designs and share them (looking for feedback and improvements, of course).

Oh, a question for anyone with construction and design experience: how small a joist can I use and expect a double drywall ceiling not to sag? Keep in mind that it won't be supporting a floor - only two layers of 5/8 drywall and some soffits, and a projector, of course. Is 2x8 too small?

Fred
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post #50 of 1177 Old 03-09-2012, 10:26 AM
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Is the only reason for relocating everything out of the soffit for soundproofing? And it is my understanding that you will build a new soffit in the room?

In that case why not just box all of that stuff in a soffit now before hanging drywall in the rest of the room? Treat that soffit like the other walls. Hang it from decoupling clips and channel if you are using them and then cover it in two layers of drywall plus Green Glue.

Keeping the soffit completely inside the sound envelope also allows for more flexible use of the soffit. It can be used as a bass trap, allows recessed lighting without need for backer boxes, running wires etc.
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post #51 of 1177 Old 03-09-2012, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
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.......Oh, a question for anyone with construction and design experience: how small a joist can I use and expect a double drywall ceiling not to sag? Keep in mind that it won't be supporting a floor - only two layers of 5/8 drywall and some soffits, and a projector, of course. Is 2x8 too small?

I'd PM Ted about that one, but it will depend on the span.

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post #52 of 1177 Old 03-09-2012, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, good news. I talked with my dad, who works with engineering specifications of this sort for a living. If I understood him correctly, which I think I did, and if I've read a few wikipedia definitions correctly, which I think I have, I've determined that a 2x8 will be adequate for my ceiling joist span.

Mostly as a future reference to myself, but as general information for anyone considering their own span, here's a few good links.

First, the weight of drywall - according to the first good search result I found - is 2 pounds per square foot. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_d...alf_inch_weigh Even doubled, to 4 psf, that's a rather low dead load (remembering that my ceiling joists are like attic joists, with no floor laid on top).

Take that information and go to American Wood Council's online span calculator. Link Choose the species and grade I was instructed to (southern pine, No. 2), choose the member type (ceiling joist) and the spacing and sizing requirements of your application (in my case, 24 inch spacing, 2x8, and the smallest dead load option available) and the deflection limit you can tolerate, and the calculator gives you the maximum span. For my case, even assuming 10 psf dead load which is likely more than double my actual dead load, a span of more than 12 feet is manageable with a deflection limit of L/480.

What does that mean? Well, it means that even if I used four layers of 5/8 drywall, a 12 foot span supported by 2x8 southern pine wouldn't sag more than .3 inches. I can tolerate that!

I know I skipped the deflection limit calculation. Here is it. Deflection limit is given as a fraction (L/480, in my case). The span (L), 12 feet in my case, (I'm rounding a little) divided by 480 gives the total deflection. 12/480=0.025ft. 0.025ft x 12ft/in=0.3 inches or just under 5/16 inch. Ta Da!

I'll see if I can find someone to check my work here.

(Edit: my number for the weight of drywall was wrong for 5/8 gypsum. It's actually just over 2 psf - appox 2.2. That won't matter in the slightest, but it does make me more confident that I don't want to try 2x6.)
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post #53 of 1177 Old 03-14-2012, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Having developed plans for the major obstacles - the window, the plumbing, the decoupled framing - I'm ready to start ironing out some finer design points. I've been trying to work with sketchup, and I'm no good at it. It takes me days and I still don't have a drawing that I can make mean much. Anyway, I took a page from someone else's book, and drew it on paper - as close to scale as I could without a ruler and graph paper. I think it came out pretty well.

In the hope that some of you are feeling creative, I'll post the blank that I photographed first. Please feel free to download it and draw all over it. Eventually I'll probably post several versions of it with different construction details on each version. In this drawing, the outer line is the limit of construction. For the top of the page (let's call it the north wall, because it's up - does that bother readers in the southern hemisphere?), that outer line is poured concrete foundation. The same is true of the eastern edge, and the eastern end of the southern edge. The western edge has been limited here by the second set of windows on the northern wall - the windows that will stay. Along the bottom of the image, poorly labeled, is the drain pipe from the rest of the house. It's near ceiling height, and will go inside the soffit. Near the midpoint of the south wall, there are a number of diagonal sections - this is where other drain pipes join with the main pipe, heading to the exit of the house in the east wall.



So, the first drawing I've made is for layout of the speakers, seats, riser, stage and soffits. I'll probably do some kind of proscenium as well, but it will most likely mirror the stage very closely (acoustics pending) Pardon the crudity. Notice I'm toying with the idea of armchairs for the first row. I like the idea of them being able to swivel around and be more social - but I'm not set on that. The second row sofa I drew has recliners on each end - I'm not sure I'll end up with that, but we saw one at a furniture store that was reasonably priced, so that's what I've been envisioning.

The speaker positions are flexible (as is the door), but I feel like these are pretty close. I'll hopefully be able to take lots of acoustic measurements and be confident in their locations before it's too late. I haven't decided on columns; they were in my initial plan, but I'm not sure any more. The screen here is about 9 feet wide. I hope that works out - I don't see why it won't. I've placed the front speakers a little narrow to keep them inside the 16:9 image. I've also hopefully left enough space for a set of masking panels for the sides of my 235 screen.

Also, the riser I've set here is two steps high - about 14 inches. I'll show you why in my next post.

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post #54 of 1177 Old 03-14-2012, 08:35 PM
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Ah, nice! I can't use sketchup either. All my drawings/renders look like crap. Lost my patience with it long ago. I too resorted to the ole pen and paper "old school" camp for laying out my room. I went with graph paper though and did a "true scale" drawing of the room. LOL Looks good though, to me everything looks proportional in your layout.

I'm guessing the lighter grey line around the three walls is your soffit? It does look slightly larger in proportion, but that just might be do to your drawing skills or a requirement to make things symmetrical around the room and be able to get everything under wraps.

You just may want to add room dimensions to your blank sheet just to help us out a little.

Regards,

RTROSE

My (slower than molasses) HT build here.
Now a Certified Carpet Counselor and Plumbing Counselor (Self given titles - pay no attention).
Enjoying my "almost done" theater.
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post #55 of 1177 Old 03-14-2012, 08:39 PM
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Yeah if you could add some room dimensions to your blank sheet then that would be a big help. I'll print one out tomorrow and draw up some ideas (time for bed now. Haha.)

I've got a few things in mind that might work nicely.

The Austin Home Theater:
A DIY high school project (now complete and being enjoyed everyday)

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post #56 of 1177 Old 03-14-2012, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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To get the room length I need, I've had to plan on relocating a door. The new position of the doorway at the landing of the stairs seems to interfere with the triple stud in that wall. As that wall runs down the center of the basement, and the triple stud is just about in the middle of it - I'm assuming it needs to be there.

Further, the entrance to the theater will need to be onto the riser. Since the step up to riser height is outside the theater, what I'm planing on doing is building a landing at the base of the stairs two steps high. This will move the new doorway to one side of the triple stud. I'll just continue the landing along the west wall of the theater, so that the stair landing is the same height as the riser.

The problem this makes is that the existing soffit for the drain pipe is too low for the doorway to be comfortable However, I can decrease the size of the soffit by a few inches if I remove the air duct from it, leaving only the plumbing. The new doorway will still be a little low - about 6'5" I think.

Luckily, since the air handler is under the stairs, raising the landing and extending it to the theater makes moving the ducting easy. It'll just run under the riser instead of in the soffit.

Here's the picture of the landing at the bottom of the stairs. The end of the theater will be almost exactly where the edge of the doorway is visible at the right in this image. The triple stud is just to the right of the double gang switch box. For reference to the floorplan I posted, we are looking "north," the stairs run east, and the theater is in the room to the north, but out of frame to the east. I'll repost the original floorplan of the whole basement again to help that make sense.



This plan doesn't show the new landing I'm talking about, but it does provide reference for overall layout.


So, whadaya think?
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post #57 of 1177 Old 03-14-2012, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry about the scale guys. I'll try to include something more descriptive in future iterations. However, if you look at the lower right of the image, I've noted that one line on the page is 10 inches. I think that the studs I drew, and the plumbing, are a little small, while the furniture and soffits are a little large. However, the stud spacing is pretty accurate.
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post #58 of 1177 Old 03-21-2012, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I need help... Advice. For estimating materials, would you work from drawings? Does anyone have a good tool for estimating materials for stages, risers, soffits? The numbers are killing me.

So is the price. The nice man at Lowes explained to me some options for delivery of large orders and the way bulk pricing discounts work. Basically, if you need $2500 worth of stuff or more, submit one order and the guy at the contractor desk will whisk it off to someone at some corporate location, who'll mark it down for you. Then delivery is $79 per trip. Well as anyone who has done the math recently will know, it's very easy to spend that much money. I'm pretty sure I'll hit than number on lumber and drywall alone.

So I suppose I need to make as careful a plan as possible up front, to avoid extra delivery trips and minimize overage. Blarg.

How about some good news? I got a spare bit of house wrap from a construction site, via the architect, who happens to be the spouse of my wife's coworker. Why is that good news? Well, you need house wrap for when you remove a window and frame over the opening. House wrap is generally sold in huge rolls, for like $150. I only need about 25 square feet, so even the small roll (3' by 100' for $30) is overkill - not to mention I'd have a seem in the middle of it. On the other hand this bit of scrap that was destined for the landfill will suit my needs exactly, and for free.

The best part of this is that having secured some house wrap, I'm ready to remove the window this weekend. I'll be sure to take pictures so that all of you who wonder what it would look like to punch a giant hole in the side of your house will be able to live vicariously through me.
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post #59 of 1177 Old 03-22-2012, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I concluded I was going to have to work from precise drawings to be happy with my estimate for materials. I acknowledge that my order won't be exactly right, but I'll do what I can to make it as close as possible. My backside is just too water-tight, I guess. So I set about serious drawings tonight, and I haven't found the compromise I like. I need a recommendation from someone who has built one (a theater, a riser) before.

I started with this viewing distance calculator and Dennis Erskine's recommendation that the screen not exceed 80% of the room's width. Since I want a wide screen (2.40 is the number I'm using, but I plan on building custom a little large and masking down), I settled on 42 inches high. So that's about 101 inches wide (or 70% of my anticipated internal room width of 145 inches), for those keeping score at home. A screen almost 8 and a half feet wide is not especially large for cinemascope, I know, but neither is my room.

Next I putzed around in the viewing distance calculator and with my paper sketches until I decided (arbitrarily) that the first row should be slightly closer than the THX recommended 36 degree viewing angle. I settled on 40. That puts first row eyeballs 8.5 feet back (102 inches). That's right at 2.4 times the screen height.

Since riser height and position is the whole reason to do this, I went next to this vertical viewing angle guidleline to see how high I could mount the screen. Long story short, I used some trigonometry and an assumption about first row seated height and generated this diagram you see below. I limited the screen height to 15 degrees above the front row, to keep from getting a sore neck. Then I left about 6 feet (maybe 2 inches short) and found the second row height using the drawing tools.

This image is to scale! You might not like the scale, but it is. 1 inch is 2 pixels. (At least it was before I uploaded it to photobucket, which reformatted my bitmap to jpeg - I'll attach the bitmap for anyone who wants it.) The whole white image is the entire space inside finished drywall (within an inch or two). I didn't draw in the floor or speakers or anything but the screen and heads. The difference in head heights is the riser height. I assumed 38 inches above floor for each eye. So, using the pixel counter features in MS Paint, I've determined that this scenario requires a 20 inch riser. I can't really build more than 14, so what do I push or pull?

Please help!


LL
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post #60 of 1177 Old 03-23-2012, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I went reading for other's designs - it looks like maybe my first row is too close. Opinions?
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