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post #181 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 11:46 AM
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At least you didn't let the air out of all four tires biggrin.gif

Just kidding! That's always the story. If it's quick, and works just as good, it's gonna be expensive!


EDIT: How much space do you have between the top of your news joists and the existing ones?

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post #182 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I should have figured expensive... thanks for the information. I'll probably be cutting batts. (sad face)

J_P_A: (This will sound rude, but I hope you know I don't mean it that way) I keep explaining to people how the joists will fit together, and I always have to explain it two or three times; I must not be saying it right. I'll have a picture to share in a few days after the first new joists go in. Of course it's entirely possible I'm not reading your question right.

The new ceiling joists will fit between the old floor joists. The bottoms of the new ceiling joists will be about 1 inch below the bottoms of the old floor joists. The old floor joists are 2x12 and the new ceiling joists are 2x8, so while the bottoms will be only 1 inch different in height, the tops will be about 5 inches different. The side-to-side spacing will vary slightly, I'm sure, as the existing floor joists are not perfectly spaced, and I'm sure I'll find reason for my new joist spacing to vary as well, but I will try to keep the new ones in the middle of the old bays.

Maybe I need batts that are twelve inches wide, 8 inches thick, and unfaced. I can turn them on their side and stuff them into the new micro-bays I'll make with the new joists.


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post #183 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I should have figured expensive... thanks for the information. I'll probably be cutting batts. (sad face)
J_P_A: (This will sound rude, but I hope you know I don't mean it that way) I keep explaining to people how the joists will fit together, and I always have to explain it two or three times; I must not be saying it right. I'll have a picture to share in a few days after the first new joists go in. Of course it's entirely possible I'm not reading your question right.
The new ceiling joists will fit between the old floor joists. The bottoms of the new ceiling joists will be about 1 inch below the bottoms of the old floor joists. The old floor joists are 2x12 and the new ceiling joists are 2x8, so while the bottoms will be only 1 inch different in height, the tops will be about 5 inches different. The side-to-side spacing will vary slightly, I'm sure, as the existing floor joists are not perfectly spaced, and I'm sure I'll find reason for my new joist spacing to vary as well, but I will try to keep the new ones in the middle of the old bays.
Maybe I need batts that are twelve inches wide, 8 inches thick, and unfaced. I can turn them on their side and stuff them into the new micro-bays I'll make with the new joists.

No worries. I understood the general layout, but didn't remember the sizes of framing off hand. The 5" difference is what I was getting at. I was wondering if there is enough space above the new framing to put your insulation there. I'd have to double check with Ted, and reread (for the 1,000th time) about triple leafs and the like, but I can't see a reason why the insulation has to be directly on top of the drywall on your ceiling. You're going to have a cavity not filled with insulation anyway, you might as well make it easy on yourself with regard to where you put the insulation.

All that said, 5" might be pushing it a bit for R19.

EDIT" I should have asked how much space between the top of the new joists and the floor above (5" from your previous post). Sorry.

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post #184 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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R-19 is supposed to be 6 1/4 inches thick, so squeezing it to 80% normal thickness for the width of 1.5 inches would make it fit. But that would still leave 6.5 or 7 inches of totally open air.


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post #185 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 12:55 PM
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Yes. IIRC, Ted only recommends R19 in your ceiling regardless of the cavity depth. My understanding is that after 6.5" of insulation, you reach the point of diminishing returns, and filling the remaining space does little. (You probably know all that, just making sure we're on the same page).

The issue is whether or not compressing the insulation at the top of each of your new joists reduces the efficacy appreciably. Ted question, maybe?

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post #186 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Ted question, maybe?
That is a Ted question. And since I'm close enough to hanging drywall (maybe wink.gif ) and routing ducting, I have some business to do with him. Maybe I'll give him a call if he doesn't stop by here in the next day or so.

Actually, I joke about being close to hanging drywall, but it is coming sooner than I would have thought. Since my wiring and ducting is all going to be inside the room - there will be only a few A/C penetrations and probably only two or three for wiring, and all of them through the end (rear) wall I'll be routing that wiring through the mostly finished wall, into the riser cavity or into the soffit. SO, as soon as I've got the walls and ceiling insulated, I should start with my OSB layer.


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post #187 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 01:18 PM
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If Ted gives the nod, you could probably put your insulation up there (above the new joists), and then come back with a razor knife and cut the insulation so that it can fluff back up around the top of the joist. You could use the joist as a guide and just run the knife right down along side it. Lickity split. Easy for me to say, right rolleyes.gif

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post #188 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Would you buy a drywall hoist from Discount Tommy? link
edited: refine link - should work for anyone
Edit one more time: looks like the order will be fulfilled by Amazon, so I'm less nervous.
Edited for the last time - seriously - I went ahead and bought it. There wasn't anything available on craigslist for less - and the one available looked like the same product for the same price (+/-$5).


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post #189 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Lickity split.
That's better than cutting them all by hand on a table somewhere and then trying to fit them in nicely.


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post #190 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Would you buy a drywall hoist from Discount Tommy? link
edited: refine link - should work for anyone
Edit one more time: looks like the order will be fulfilled by Amazon, so I'm less nervous.

Have you checked with your local Home Depot? I seem to remember that some of them have drywall lifts. Not sure about the price, their site doesn't seem to be working (at least, not for the internets here is L.A.).

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post #191 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 02:52 PM
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If you are prepared to get everything done in one day, I would suggest just renting the tool. The 24 hour rate here is about $20. If you feel you have to own it, why not check out Craigslist? I have seen a bunch from $75 to $100 in used but excellent condition. Buy it, use it and then sell it on to the next person for what you paid for it.
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post #192 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I know you guys are right, but there's a couple reasons I decided against buying used and/or renting. 1 - I know I won't get it done in one day - or even two or three days. I don't have a truck for carrying it back and forth to the HD (assuming they have one, which they probably do). And driving over there to get it and back eats up an hour and half or more of my day (assuming two trips). 2 - I really planned on buying used and reselling used, but I am impatient. I want to make sure that it's around while I'm on vacation, and I'd rather not drive out to the suburbs (where the sellers seem always to be) to meet somebody to try and buy one, plus today there was only one listed locally, for $140. Buying with Amazon prime, I paid $145, with no shipping, and I'll have it Friday without having to arrange meeting with some stranger.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the quality of the thing. I'm sure the rental model would be much better built. I may be working with 4x10 sheets of drywall (but only 4x8 7/16" OSB), so a heavy duty model may have proven to be a significant advantage.

Now that I have bought it, I can resell it at my leisure, and be out only the difference. smile.gif I will be selling my Duo-Fast powder actuated tool as well.


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post #193 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't believe I've been measuring and talking about the floor joists wrong all this time. I went to confirm my details and check how much insulation was in the joist bays, and I found that the floor joists are only 2x10, not 2x12, like I've been saying. So the gap between the main level subfloor and the tops of the new ceiling joists will be much smaller, like only 3 inches.


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post #194 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 09:12 PM
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This will sound rude, but I hope you know I don't mean it that way biggrin.gif

Just kidding smile.gif I think we've all had days like that. Better to find out now than when you're getting ready to stuff your insulation up there. You might still give Ted a call and see if he has any suggestions before you go to too much trouble. If you think about it, in a double stud wall, you're going to have a small gap where insulation is stuffed behind the offset 2x.

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post #195 of 1179 Old 09-04-2012, 09:23 PM
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It may be a bit of overkill (see my signature below), but if you have three inches above the joists you could just use an unfaced R13 laying flat above the theater joist and completely filling the original joist bay. You could then just take unfaced R19 to cut and stuff on either side of the theater joists. I think you would even end up with a small air gap between the R19 and the R13 which would be ideal. Just a thought. [EDIT: fixed iPad "autocorrect"]
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post #196 of 1179 Old 09-05-2012, 05:15 AM
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TMcG beat me to it. I had similar thoughts last night. It doesn't save you from having to cut a bunch of insulation, but sometimes the worrying over how much trouble it will be is worse than actually doing it. Again, easy for me to say biggrin.gif

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post #197 of 1179 Old 09-05-2012, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I (correctly) described the situation in a message to sounproofingcompany.com last night. Hopefully, they've got a recommendation that doesn't involve cutting a bunch of batts. If that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. My problem (does that mean I only have one!?) is that I have no experience working with batts, so I'm unfamiliar with the sizes and varieties and techniques. Ideally, Ted will have a certain best-practice answer, and I can just work from a recipe - since I want to get this part behind me without loosing my current focus and momentum. If he doesn't, I'll probably be doing what you guys have suggested. Thanks for the input!


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post #198 of 1179 Old 09-05-2012, 06:34 AM
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My problem (does that mean I only have one!?) is that I have no experience working with batts, so I'm unfamiliar with the sizes and varieties and techniques.

There's really nothing to it. Once you have the measurements for the size piece you need, simply measure that size on a batt on the floor, adding about 1/2" in all dimensions so you get a snug fit when installed. Using a level, 2x4 or something similar as a straight edge, simply press down the 2x4 onto the insulation to compress the batt and make your cut with a sharp razor blade. All pieces hold themselves in position with friction fit, just keep the fiberglass as fluffy as possible when installed. Very easy. Nothing to be afraid of, should take you about 1/2 a day to do the whole ceiling in your room with as many cuts as you have to make for the R19 layer is you go with the two-layer approach.

Get a little Captain in ya and get goin'!!! biggrin.gif
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post #199 of 1179 Old 09-05-2012, 01:54 PM
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FWIW the JM batts are coming pre-scored lengthwise now. You just tear them. I did note that in my bundle not all of them were scored.

Once you get into batt-cutting-mode it's not that bad. The worst part is getting psyched up to actually do it.

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post #200 of 1179 Old 09-05-2012, 02:42 PM
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I would also invest in a couple of protective "bunny suits", plus respirator and latex free gloves to preserve dexterity: http://www.constructiongear.com/3m-disposable-protective-coverall-4540.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=22942695690&utm_content=pla&gclid=CNSs1-azn7ICFYOc7QodOkEAQA
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post #201 of 1179 Old 09-09-2012, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the tips about dealing with the fiberglass. Those are good ideas which I have, at least so far, completely ignored. I had some more help today, so I actually got something done. smile.gif

We got all the rough framing done for the theater itself. I'll still have some framing to do for the closet, and lots for the soffits, riser, stage, proscenium... Today's big task was to get all the new ceiling joists in. That was largely a huge success. There are a couple lingering doubts and issues I'll photograph for you; but it's all up!


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post #202 of 1179 Old 09-10-2012, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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post #203 of 1179 Old 09-10-2012, 04:52 PM
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Nice vid.. I may just do one myself smile.gif

Looking good. Regarding the bowed stud, I would probably remove and replace it. If it's bowed that much finishing the drywall will not be fun.

If I weren't going to do that, I would probably glue that shim in, which may or may not be the right thing to do.. but it would be the Tim thing to do smile.gif

Definitely need more clearance on the plumbing, I can imagine the noise from the pipe would transmit to the wall.

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post #204 of 1179 Old 09-10-2012, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Tim. Always nice to hear my own thoughts coming back at me from people I don't really know that well, via the internet - at least about the shim and the plumbing.

For the stud against the wall I might disagree, but that's not your fault. wink.gif I haven't done a thorough job of explaining the situation - mostly because it's not entirely clear to me. I think maybe the whole room is a little off-plump. I'm going to go take some pictures and look closely. I'll post a more complete analysis of the situation later tonight.


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post #205 of 1179 Old 09-10-2012, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Pictures don't lie, right? When we first tied the two sections of the right wall together, I noticed that there was very little clearance in a few spots. I figured there wasn't anything to do about it until everything was locked in, so I'd worry about it then. Well, it's then - and here's the photos.

First, with a strong back light, we see the right wall. It's clear that the concrete wall is not smooth. It's plumb, overall, but wavy.


Second, to my surprise, the studs are also plumb. I checked several of them, and the picture might be a little difficult to judge, because of the angle, but the bubble is between the lines. The level is about 4 feet long and does rock a little on the surface of the stud, but the bubble doesn't break passed the line no matter what - so I'll call it plumb.


The left wall is the same story, only if you shake the walls, the rattling is always from the right wall.


So, what can I do? Should I ignore it, and hope the wall doesn't move and bump the concrete? Should I leave a shim in there to firm up the connection and keep it from rattling? Should I carve out a little of the edge of the stud - tracing the profile of the concrete? Are there other options?


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post #206 of 1179 Old 09-11-2012, 03:15 AM
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Once you get the front and rear walls sheathed, a lot of the side-to-side movement will be mitigated. I would still be worried about the stud slapping the wall, though. I would put something in there to soften the blow.. Maybe just squirt some green glue or acoustical sealant in there?

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post #207 of 1179 Old 09-11-2012, 03:43 AM
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Fred - just get yourself a cold chisel and a 3 or 5 pound sledge and go to work knocking down those high sections of the foundation wall that may touch because you framed it so close. Hopefully your wall PSI is not too obscenely high that it will be difficult, but it really shouldn't take that long and is inexpensive to do.

Second, one thing that jumped out at me immediately was the amount of space you designated for your equipment rack. I can tell from the video that this area is WAY too shallow. Any decent amplifier or receiver is going to be 17-20" deep and then you must allow for another 3 or so inches at an absolute minimum for wiring and cable connections with a smooth radius against the wall. That being said, and to stay on an ultra-thin budget.....I would simply remove the studs to the immediate right of the theater entrance and make a 19.5" width rough opening at the appropriate racking height to hold all of your equipment. You would then just purchase rack rails and mount them to the painted studding (least expensive) or allow a bit more width to line with some 1x4 material and attach to that and the studding on either side. Either way that now gets you your rack rails. Then I would simply frame in a door to what is currently open to your equipment room for access to the back of the equipment for wiring. So as you are walking into the room just outside your theater, there would be a door immediately on your right and as you start to walk into the theater, all the equipment will be on your right just before you get through the theater door.

Perhaps this is premature, but it also appears you need some drywall (OSB) blocking at the front of the room near the ceiling.

And Mr. Tim is right.....break you the sawzall and get to work making a bit more clearance for those plumbing pipes- at least 1/2" if not 3/4" minimum.
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post #208 of 1179 Old 09-11-2012, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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TMcG - the cold chisel is definitely the right idea. I was skeptical, having never used one on masonry, but it's pretty effective. I bought two this morning. 3/4" looked like I could really get in there and work with it if the concrete was too hard, and a 3" "floor chisel" because it looked like it would be better, if the working was easier. The 3" chisel works pretty well, when used with a small sledge, like you suggested. I'll make fairly short work of this. Thumbs up!

The equipment closet is not deep, you're right. It's only about 20 inches, but I'm going to be using it sideways, with the face of the equipment open to the base of the stairs - on the new landing I'll build - to the left of the old doorway(does that make sense? I think it's the same thing you are saying). There will be a small door (18" I think) so that I can get in there and manage wiring and such. I had never thought of just buying rack rails - but that sounds like a good idea. I did insufficient research when I laid out that space. The gap in the studs (still dry-walled from before demolition) is pretty much exactly 20" (maybe a 1/16th off), so my working plan was to build in shelving, but I would prefer rack mounting if it's possible and affordable. So, I'll be looking around for some components.

There will be some creative reworking at both ends of the ceiling. The walls landed under floor joists, so there is no end ceiling joist. I'll just "make it happ'n cap'n!"

Some of the close clearances in the joists will get "embiggened" with a sawzall, but at least one is coming back out to re-notch. Oh, well. I'll have it back in in no time.

Hopefully, in a few hours I can make a new video where there is not rattling. (crosses fingers)


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post #209 of 1179 Old 09-11-2012, 11:43 AM
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Glad to hear the cold chisel is going to work. You gotta love when a fix to a problem is cheap, effective and relatively easy to do.

Regarding the rack. Two rack rails need to be precisely 19 1/8" width. Given your gap of 20", this difference is doable with shims, but probably better to add 3/4" dimensional lumber to one die or the other to bring your gap closer. You can get a perfect width by purchasing at least three 1U, 2u or 3U blank or vent panels for the top, middle and bottom of the rack rails so it can be installed as one single rigid and square unit. Once mounted to the framing, simply remove your blanks and load with shelves, vents, etc. as-needed. I have to tell you, most people think you have to go with some big, expensive rack - that's just not the case. Two rack rails and picking up a handful of shelves off eBay or second-hand outlets is cheap and efficient. In fact, many times the total cost ends up being cheaper and provides a much nicer final result. I will tell you this - once you have a professional racking system, you will NEVER go back to anything else to store a significant amount of equipment. Please just don't forget to provide ventilation for this equipment closet!!! biggrin.gif:D

Good luck embiggening! Cheers!
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post #210 of 1179 Old 09-11-2012, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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