How to fill a stage with sand? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
exipnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi all,

After a hiatus of about 5 years, I'm finally in the process of getting the HT build going. The stage has been built and I've carried the sand into the HT. I will wait for sand to dry a bit before I fill it though.

I've done some searches but have not found any details on how to fill the stage. What I was planning to do is as follows.

1. Take a big square plastic sheet and loosely line the inside. I'll make sure its big enough so that it acts as a bag.
2. Fill the stage up to the top with dry sand.
3. Roll over roofing felt and then screw the top OSB3 onto the stage.
4. Do a green glue layer and screw second OSB3 layer onto stage.

Simple enough right? Now to my questions.

1. When I fill it with sand how well do I need to pack it? Does it need to be hard packed so that it does not settle over time? Shall I fill it in multiple times and packing it hard between each time?

2. Do I need the roofing felt over the sand and before the OSB3 board or shall I just utilize this between the two OSB3 layers instead of the green glue?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Cheers,

Kosta
exipnos is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 06:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
carboranadum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winchester, VA
Posts: 2,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by exipnos View Post

1. Take a big square plastic sheet and loosely line the inside. I'll make sure its big enough so that it acts as a bag.
2. Fill the stage up to the top with dry sand.
3. Roll over roofing felt and then screw the top OSB3 onto the stage.
4. Do a green glue layer and screw second OSB3 layer onto stage.

Simple enough right? Now to my questions.

1. When I fill it with sand how well do I need to pack it? Does it need to be hard packed so that it does not settle over time? Shall I fill it in multiple times and packing it hard between each time?

Welcome! Here's my shot at answering your questions.

If you use dry sand, this is not an issue. The sand will fill all of the voids and completely fill the space. Just fill the compartment up to teh top and move to the next one. Do not use wet sand.

Quote:


2. Do I need the roofing felt over the sand and before the OSB3 board or shall I just utilize this between the two OSB3 layers instead of the green glue?

When I was ready to close up the stage, I folded the plastic on itself to try and close it up. I then screwed down the first layer of OSB to seal it up, then a layer of roofing felt and a second layer of OSB. I don't believe that GG is needd in this application.

Good luck!

Follow my build here: Harvest Ridge Theater
carboranadum is offline  
post #3 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 09:06 AM
HOME THEATER CONTRACTOR
 
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 21,492
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 574 Post(s)
Liked: 735
cut a piece of plastic for each section, place in area, put in sand to about 2-3 inches shy of the top edge, push sand into corners with hands, take a sharp utility knife and cut plastic 1/4 inch from the top edge, fill with sand, take a board wider than each section and scrape the top nice and level, Put on your first layer.

For what it is worth Dennis spec's 3 layers and the use of GG. Of course he and Ted are Friends.

BIGmouthinDC is online now  
post #4 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 09:19 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
dc_pilgrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Central... PA
Posts: 4,617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
A cross section:

Green glue replaced roofing felt in the state of the art design.

dc_pilgrim is offline  
post #5 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
exipnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for all the responses. While its more clear now that I don't have to use the roofing felt before the first OSB layer, I'm almost certain that I read it in one of the construction thread from a Dennis designed theatre. But I've read so many threads that I probably confuse things.

Regarding the packing of sand though, I'm still not clear. Is there no need to pack sand if its dry sand? I would still guess that even dry sand with all the subwoofer vibrations will settle a bit over time. If so then it will create a gap on the top. Isn't this an issue?

Cheers
exipnos is offline  
post #6 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 10:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 8,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 35
I'd first make sure the sand is bone dry. This is important for mold considerations as well as to fascilitate sand settling. I'd also look at a means to vibrate the sand a bit to encourage settling. Maybe have the sand layer a tad higher than the stage framing, anticipating some settling.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #7 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
exipnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
While I have many building supply stores around me where I live, I did not find any place that had dry play sand. So I purchased normal sand and of-course the bags are very wet.

So I'm currently storing the bags in the cinema and hope the heat will take away some moisture. I was then planning on filling the stage slow. Start with with one bag in each section and have a fan blow on it over night. Then check progress and see if I need more drying before starting on the next bag.

any other tips on how to dry up the sand?
exipnos is offline  
post #8 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 10:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 8,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by exipnos View Post

any other tips on how to dry up the sand?

Yes. Don't put the sand in the stage framing until it's bone dry. Otherwise you're simply moistening the wood framing and slowing the drying of the sand.

I laid out a large section of poly in the middle of the theater area, dumped the sand to a thin layer and had a fan blowing lightly over the area. I made sure the room was warm and had a dehumidifier there. At the time that seemed like the fastest way to dry the sand. I hadn't anticipated the drying time so I was in a hurry.

As I recall, the process took a couple of days and I turned the pile frequently to expose the moist sand below. THEN I poured the sand into the stage.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #9 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
exipnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks Ted. I was thinking of your method and it makes more sense. I'll use the fan and dehumidifier and hopefully a few days should do it.

By the way Ted, did you see my message to you regarding the Green Glue state after 5 years. Still seemed okay to me....
exipnos is offline  
post #10 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 11:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 8,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by exipnos View Post

By the way Ted, did you see my message to you regarding the Green Glue state after 5 years. Still seemed okay to me....

??

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #11 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
exipnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

??

I sent you a message on this forum. Basically 6 years ago I purchased a lot of GG for my cinema here in France. Then my builder went bankrupt and I lost a considerable amount of money and had a half finished house. Due to all this my cinema construction never went ahead.

I previously contacted Brian R. who told me shelf life of GG should be around a year. Now this past week I finally did the second layer of drywall in the cinema and I tried my existing stock of Green Glue.

Well I'm happy to inform you that the Green Glue still seems to be functional. In the past 6 years it was stored in my humid basement. Some of the tubes you sent was with the paper casing and they did not fare so well. The plastic tubes and the GG seemed fine though.

When you talk about he shelf life what is the determining factor? I thought that the GG would dry out and become solid which is not the case. Am I right in assuming that since its not solid, that it will still perform as designed?
exipnos is offline  
post #12 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 12:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 8,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Ah. I recall working with you back in the day! Thanks for that refresher.

The Green Glue is around 1/3 water, so as long as it doesn't dry out it will remain usable. Doesn't separate under normal temperatures. So if it's able to be dispensed from the tube, it's OK to use.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #13 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 02:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jdanforth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,146
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by exipnos View Post

I would still guess that even dry sand with all the subwoofer vibrations will settle a bit over time. If so then it will create a gap on the top. Isn't this an issue?

I'm interested in an answer on this one as well. I was wondering what the consequences would be if there were a small gap between the sand and the first layer of OSB.
jdanforth is offline  
post #14 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 02:34 PM
HOME THEATER CONTRACTOR
 
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 21,492
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 574 Post(s)
Liked: 735
I imagine that if one is really concerned you could use the same technique that they use to settle concrete when making concrete counter tops, Take the blade out of a reciprocal saw and hold it against the side and vibrate the stage frame until you are happy with the result.
BIGmouthinDC is online now  
post #15 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 02:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carboranadum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winchester, VA
Posts: 2,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by exipnos View Post

any other tips on how to dry up the sand?

Buy dry sand. Even if it costs more, just buy dry sand.

Follow my build here: Harvest Ridge Theater
carboranadum is offline  
post #16 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 02:56 PM
Member
 
kevinw73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by exipnos View Post


Regarding the packing of sand though, I'm still not clear. Is there no need to pack sand if its dry sand? I would still guess that even dry sand with all the subwoofer vibrations will settle a bit over time. If so then it will create a gap on the top. Isn't this an issue?

Cheers

My experience with packing sand being wet or dry was on a paver driveway installation and I can tell you that if the sand is dry the compactor would just bury itself into the sand. With that said if you can't pack it together with your hands like you were making a sand castle then you're probably dry. Basically dry sand doesn't pack it just fills.

Dream it - Design it - DO IT

Theatre 1.0 Built - Enjoyed - Sold
Theatre 2.0 Somewhere between Dreaming and Designing

My Theatre Build - Eagle Hills Uniplex-Design/Build
kevinw73 is offline  
post #17 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 02:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 8,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Perhaps that's a better term, however dry sand will also settle

Also, sand has a lot of hazardous silica dust. Play sand had supposedly been washed so your kids can breathe it, eat it, get it crammed places, etc. That's why it's wet. Bulk (dry) sand is fine but it has the dust

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #18 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 03:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jdanforth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,146
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by carboranadum View Post

Buy dry sand. Even if it costs more, just buy dry sand.

This is good advice. I bought 100lb bags of blasting sand and it was well worth it.
jdanforth is offline  
post #19 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 03:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
J_P_A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama
Posts: 4,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Liked: 267
I didn't think sand settles much. Isn't that one of the reasons it's recommended for use under a concrete pad?

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
J_P_A is offline  
post #20 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
exipnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by carboranadum View Post

Buy dry sand. Even if it costs more, just buy dry sand.

Already bought 26 bags of sand and carried them into the cinema. Don't think I will be building a sand castle in the garden or do several trips back to the store to return them. Thus drying them out is the only option. Who knows after this experience I may have an entry in the "What I do different next time" thread.

Thanks though.
exipnos is offline  
post #21 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
exipnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Ah. I recall working with you back in the day! Thanks for that refresher.

The Green Glue is around 1/3 water, so as long as it doesn't dry out it will remain usable. Doesn't separate under normal temperatures. So if it's able to be dispensed from the tube, it's OK to use.

Thanks for the confirmation. Back in those days you also sent me a caulking gun that handle those big GG cartridges. Impossible to find here in France. I still have the caulking gun somewhere, but I have no idea where within my garage it hides. So we had to cut each tub in half and scoop out the GG with a wooden stick. Messy but it got the job done.
exipnos is offline  
post #22 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 06:00 PM
HOME THEATER CONTRACTOR
 
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 21,492
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 574 Post(s)
Liked: 735


Last week we used this and it was perfectly dry.
BIGmouthinDC is online now  
post #23 of 55 Old 12-14-2011, 10:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carboranadum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winchester, VA
Posts: 2,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by exipnos View Post

Already bought 26 bags of sand and carried them into the cinema. Don't think I will be building a sand castle in the garden or do several trips back to the store to return them. Thus drying them out is the only option. Who knows after this experience I may have an entry in the "What I do different next time" thread.

Thanks though.

I hear you. I thnk there are already a few entries about wet sand and the difficult time that folks have drying it out in that thread. It's a lot of work, but not that hard, from what I understand. It does tend to make a huge mess and consume innumerable hours watching the sand dry.

Good luck!

Follow my build here: Harvest Ridge Theater
carboranadum is offline  
post #24 of 55 Old 12-15-2011, 06:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tlogan6797's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:


Last week we used this and it was perfectly dry.

Depends on where it is stored. Locally, I found that HD stores it outside and Lowe's stores it inside. Outside, you could pick through the top couple of layers to get to the dry stuff, but it was much easier and faster to get it where it was stored inside.

Tom Logan
Everytime I reply the thread ends
Need motivation? Get LOGANED
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014847

An as-yet un-named theater designed by Big-WarrenP-BritInVA
tlogan6797 is offline  
post #25 of 55 Old 12-15-2011, 07:08 AM
HOME THEATER CONTRACTOR
 
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 21,492
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 574 Post(s)
Liked: 735
Yes, Bzbase had a pallet delivered from Lowe's and specifically requested the dry. They said it was stored inside.
BIGmouthinDC is online now  
post #26 of 55 Old 12-15-2011, 07:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 8,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 35
I like the idea of the recipro saw used as a sand vibrator. Sand settles. I recall old stories about massive sand-filled speaker enclosures that were packed tight initially and after vibrations from the drivers, settling always occurred. I never saw one of these so that's purely anecdotal.

When pavers are laid or a slab poured, the sand is run over with a compactor. Sand will settle due to the irregular shape, whereas ball bearings will not settle. That's my working understanding.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #27 of 55 Old 12-29-2011, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
exipnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well just to close the loop on this thread. I finished filling the stage with sand. Took a long time since I had to wait for two orders of sand to dry. But no issue really since I had many other task to do in the mean time in the theatre.

The sand was filled in a 3 stages. After each stage it was compacted with square OSB3 piece and a heavy hammer. Then I did the last filling all the way to the top. I screeded it with a long flat piece of wood to ensure it was all leveled. Then I went ahead and did the final compactation of this layer. Well the sand compacted about 1" to 2" from the top. So for sure it does settle. Ted was right! Now I'm not sure if it helps or not to have it compacted but its done!

Cheers.

Kosta
exipnos is offline  
post #28 of 55 Old 12-29-2011, 07:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carboranadum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winchester, VA
Posts: 2,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Excellent! How were you able to dry it?

Follow my build here: Harvest Ridge Theater
carboranadum is offline  
post #29 of 55 Old 12-30-2011, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
exipnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I used Teds suggestions.

1. I took it out from the bags and put it all on my concrete floor (use plastic sheet if your floor is moisture sensitive).
2. I spread it on a large surface to make it as thin as possible.
3. I connected a fan directed towards the sand.
4. I connected a small dehumidifier that ran in the closed room
5. Twice or three times a day I would turn the sand pile a bit

Quite easy and not to bad if you are not in a hurry With all the above you would need 2-4 days to get it completely dry.

But my suggestion is to have enough sand so you don't have to redo this operation twice

Cheers
exipnos is offline  
post #30 of 55 Old 12-31-2011, 09:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kensmith48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mid-Michigan
Posts: 1,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I don't know why sand is used. I put some sand under my stage (approx. 3-4 sq. ft.) and then I decided on insulation. I packed alot of fiberglass insulation inside my stage and I don't have any problems. I have 2 subs on it and I can't tell the difference between that and where the sand is.
Kensmith48 is online now  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off