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post #1171 of 1302 Old 10-09-2013, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Did you have all the other gear powered off when you had it without rca cables?
Yes. For most of my testing the majority of my equipment, which is plugged into a Monster power strip, was turned off by way of the power switch on the strip. So most items weren't even in standby mode. The only thing that wasn't on the strip (but was still not powered on) was the EP4000. I did have one thing still powered on but it was on a different circuit than everything else and that was the network switch. As soon as the receiver got power (whether it was turned on or not) the hum started through the speakers. I tried powering the receiver four different ways (flipping switch to on for the Monster strip on same circuit, flipping switch to on while on a different circuit, plugging the receiver straight into the outlet on the same circuit, plugging the receiver straight into the outlet on a different circuit) and got the same results, hum from the speakers.
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post #1172 of 1302 Old 10-09-2013, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Response from Emotiva tech support:

"I would say that you need to ground your chassis of the receiver. You can do that by running a piece of wire from a chassis screw on the receiver to the middle screw of an outlet cover. I have had very similar problems with Marantz 7005s and even some Onkyo and Pioneer units. That almost always removes the hum. I would also try not going into the surge strip just to test, those have been known to cause the issue as well. I hope this helps and if you need anything else please let me know."
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post #1173 of 1302 Old 10-09-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanice View Post

Response from Emotiva tech support:

"I would say that you need to ground your chassis of the receiver. You can do that by running a piece of wire from a chassis screw on the receiver to the middle screw of an outlet cover. I have had very similar problems with Marantz 7005s and even some Onkyo and Pioneer units. That almost always removes the hum. I would also try not going into the surge strip just to test, those have been known to cause the issue as well. I hope this helps and if you need anything else please let me know."

Vanice,
A question relating to Emotiva's suggestion above:
I seem to recall that you have a Denon AVR? If so; is the PS cord feeding the Denon a grounded cable, or just a standard 2 prong plug?

I also use a separate amp. Recently I upgraded from a Marantz AVR to a a DENON 4311, I was surprised when i found out the Denon design doesnot utilize a grounded power feed (the Marantz did).
Although I was worried the ungrounded Denon might be susceptible to this hum, I got lucky and so far no issues.
However; I have heard of others who solved their problem, by adding a ground to the case as described by Emotiva above.

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post #1174 of 1302 Old 10-09-2013, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Vanice,
A question relating to Emotiva's suggestion above:
I seem to recall that you have a Denon AVR? If so; is the PS cord feeding the Denon a grounded cable, or just a standard 2 prong plug?

I also use a separate amp. Recently I upgraded from a Marantz AVR to a a DENON 4311, I was surprised when i found out the Denon design doesnot utilize a grounded power feed (the Marantz did).
Although I was worried the ungrounded Denon might be susceptible to this hum, I got lucky and so far no issues.
However; I have heard of others who solved their problem, by adding a ground to the case as described by Emotiva above.

It is a two prong plug on the Denon receiver.

So I guess I can take pretty much any type of wire, find a screw on the Denon chassis that comes in contact with metal (not paint), and connect it to one of the outlet cover screws?? May have to try this tonight if I can find some spare wire long enough to make the connection. If it works then I can look to make it a nice finished looking solution.
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post #1175 of 1302 Old 10-09-2013, 09:17 AM
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Vanice,

To pickup a ground; a screw on an outlet cover would work.

However; a 3 prong "cheater/adaptor" plug that has the green pigtail wire might be even better. Simply use the "adaptor" between the Denon plug and the receptacle you are plugging into, and then run a wire from the green pigtail wire, back to a chassis screw on the back of the Denon.

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post #1176 of 1302 Old 10-09-2013, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, may have to see if I can find one of those at the local big box store. This is what you are talking about right? It's not considered a cheater plug since I am not going from three to two correct? Do you think heavy speaker wire would be sufficient?
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post #1177 of 1302 Old 10-09-2013, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Vanice,

To pickup a ground; a screw on an outlet cover would work.

However; a 3 prong "cheater/adaptor" plug that has the green pigtail wire might be even better. Simply use the "adaptor" between the Denon plug and the receptacle you are plugging into, and then run a wire from the green pigtail wire, back to a chassis screw on the back of the Denon.


Vanice,
Scratch what I have said above. The adaptor I was thinking of does not appear to be readily available.
I would just use 14 gauge THHN stranded wire, crimp an eyelet on one end, connect the eyelet via the center screw on the outlet plate cover.

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post #1178 of 1302 Old 10-09-2013, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

[/S]

Vanice,
Scratch what I have said above. The adaptor I was thinking of does not appear to be readily available.
I would just use 14 gauge THHN stranded wire, crimp an eyelet on one end, connect the eyelet via the center screw on the outlet plate cover.

That is pretty much the same idea I had for my finished solution. Will probably check it tonight with something I have readily available and see if it helps. If it does, then I will redo the connection and make it solid.
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post #1179 of 1302 Old 10-10-2013, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I had a few minutes to try out the solution last night and here is what I found. It didn't work. I hooked some 12GA speaker wire to a post on my receiver labeled "signal ground" which is for a record player (looked like it would still give me a bare metal conneciton to the chassis) and then to the wallplate screw and heard no change. I then tried using the same connection on the receiver but connected the wire to the XPA-5 chassis. This also produced no change. I didn't have time to try an actual chassis connection on the receiver but that will be my next step. Probably won't get around to checking another solution until this weekend.
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post #1180 of 1302 Old 10-10-2013, 09:27 AM
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Vanice,

That's disappointing!
A question; are all of these devices you have described above being powered from the same circuit?

And one more long-shot question: Do you have a cable box somewhere in your setup?
if so; it might be worth COMPLETELY disconnecting it from your system and testing again.
These are famous for being sources of noise and ground loops (I have heard that very few of these are properly grounded at the point of entry to your home).

If all else fails; perhaps a return/exchange of the Emotiva is in order....

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post #1181 of 1302 Old 10-10-2013, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Vanice,

That's disappointing!
A question; are all of these devices you have described above being powered from the same circuit?

And one more long-shot question: Do you have a cable box somewhere in your setup?
if so; it might be worth COMPLETELY disconnecting it from your system and testing again.
These are famous for being sources of noise and ground loops (I have heard that very few of these are properly grounded at the point of entry to your home).

If all else fails; perhaps a return/exchange of the Emotiva is in order....

I'm not going to consider it a total failure as I don't think my connection to the receiver was correct. I'm going to retry my testing with a different connection to the receiver and see how it goes. Yes, they are all currently plugged into the same circuit.

I don't have any cable connection in the theater right now. It will eventually be a HTPC but I don't have it hooked up right now.

I don't get a hum from the amp until I hook it to the receiver so I don't believe the amp is bad (at this point). I hope to dig into this more this weekend when I should have more time to basically unhook everything and start over connecting one item to the system at a time hoping to find the culprit.
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post #1182 of 1302 Old 10-10-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanice View Post

I hope to dig into this more this weekend when I should have more time to basically unhook everything and start over connecting one item to the system at a time hoping to find the culprit.

Sucks that you have to do it this way, but you should definitely find it with that method. Although, you might feel a little bit like Gary Sinise in Apollo 13 trying to figure out the correct power up sequence...
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post #1183 of 1302 Old 10-10-2013, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GWCR View Post

Sucks that you have to do it this way, but you should definitely find it with that method. Although, you might feel a little bit like Gary Sinise in Apollo 13 trying to figure out the correct power up sequence...

I know! I thought I was just going to slap in the amp and enjoy audio bliss but it is turning into a head scratcher. Luckily I don't have too much hooked up at the moment and I have complete access to the back of the rack. I just hope that I figure it out and it doesn't drag on beyond this weekend because it is really cutting into my productivity at work doing all this ground loop research. tongue.gif
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post #1184 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanice View Post

I don't get a hum from the amp until I hook it to the receiver so I don't believe the amp is bad (at this point). I hope to dig into this more this weekend when I should have more time to basically unhook everything and start over connecting one item to the system at a time hoping to find the culprit.

Ok, that's at least removing some possibilities.

So next thing to test - unless you already know the answer is if it still happens when nothing else is connected to the receiver. Does the receiver have to be powered on for it to happen? Does it have to be connected to a power outlet for it to happen? How's your electric plugs - can they be put in in more than one way, then try rotating it.

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post #1185 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Ok, that's at least removing some possibilities.

So next thing to test - unless you already know the answer is if it still happens when nothing else is connected to the receiver. Does the receiver have to be powered on for it to happen? Does it have to be connected to a power outlet for it to happen? How's your electric plugs - can they be put in in more than one way, then try rotating it.

Thanks for the suggestions Nightlord. I'm not sure if I will get to it tonight or not but I will update everyone once I do. Looks like I will probably disconnect everything, power the amp up, and then start plugging things back in to see when the hum comes back. Hopefully I can at least find the culprit and then work on a solution to correct the problem.
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post #1186 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 10:31 AM
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The only thing I have not seen anyone suggest, is any of this on the same circuit as a dimmer? if your lighting is on the same circuit and your lights are not at either 100% or 0% you will get hum. Not sure how you could move the power for your lighting at this point but, that could be causing the issue
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post #1187 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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The only thing I have not seen anyone suggest, is any of this on the same circuit as a dimmer? if your lighting is on the same circuit and your lights are not at either 100% or 0% you will get hum. Not sure how you could move the power for your lighting at this point but, that could be causing the issue

The two 20A circuits for equipment are dedicated and should not have any lighting on them. I will verify when I am doing my testing that I didn't somehow tap into the circuit for lighting somewhere. 99.5% sure that I am right.
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post #1188 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 12:23 PM
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Vanice,

Seeing how you have two dedicated circuits;
I assume the AVR and amp are being tested utilizing the same circuit?

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post #1189 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Vanice,

Seeing how you have two dedicated circuits;
I assume the AVR and amp are being tested utilizing the same circuit?

Currently, yes.
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post #1190 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanice View Post

Currently, yes.

Perfect, as that eliminates a variable.
I was just checking out the XPA-5 on the Emotiva site.
It looks like the PS input connection is similar to the Denon AVR; in that they both use a 2 conductor AC feed with no 3rd wire ground?

Another test would be to ground the chassis of BOTH the AVR and the Amp, back to that same cover plate screw on your receptacle.

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post #1191 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Perfect, as that eliminates a variable.
I was just checking out the XPA-5 on the Emotiva site.
It looks like the PS input connection is similar to the Denon AVR; in that they both use a 2 conductor AC feed with no 3rd wire ground?

Another test would be to ground the chassis of BOTH the AVR and the Amp, back to that same cover plate screw on your receptacle.

It shows a two prong connection on the back of the amp but if my memory serves me correctly the power cable is actually a three prong plug where it plugs into the wall.
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post #1192 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 01:19 PM
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What you describe is possible.
Even though they are using a grounded cable - they are simply not connecting to, or using the ground wire.

If that is indeed the case;
would still be useful to do the test; of running a separate ground wire from a common ground point (receptacle screw) to both of the chassis cases.

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post #1193 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

What you describe is possible.
Even though they are using a grounded cable - they are simply not connecting to, or using the ground wire.

If that is indeed the case;
would still be useful to do the test; of running a separate ground wire from a common ground point (receptacle screw) to both of the chassis cases.

I follow you. Maybe that should be my first test. Leave everything as-is and connect the receptacle to the amp and then a wire from the amp to the receiver. If that doesn't work then I can start unplugging everything and begin from scratch.
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post #1194 of 1302 Old 10-11-2013, 03:16 PM
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Vanice,

To make the process a bit easier, this diagram describes how I would start out (YMMV).

The heavy black lines are the power feeds. The green lines are your test ground wires.
the lighter lines are the preamp interconnects and speaker hookups, these are only connections I would make. Disconnect all other connections and inputs, including antenna and sub-woofer. Everything disconnected except what is shown below:



I would then test and listen for hum without, and then with the green/ground test wire connected to both chassis. If the hum goes way then remove a single green wire from one chassis and alternate with removing the green/gnd from the other chassis.

- If you cannot make it quiet with one of the three combinations described above (from the drawing); I would consider returning/exchanging the amp.
- Assuming you get one of those combinations to be quiet, then you can add back in your signal sources and connections one-at-a-time, and test for hum with each addition.

Hope this helps, and Good Luck!

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post #1195 of 1302 Old 10-12-2013, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestions cuzed! I will give that a shot. Hope to have some time at some point this weekend to troubleshoot.
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post #1196 of 1302 Old 10-15-2013, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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No update on the dreaded hum. I was busy most of the weekend and when I wasn't I tried not to do anything but relax and be lazy. I will be sure to post once any progress is made.
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post #1197 of 1302 Old 11-02-2013, 11:36 PM
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Hey Vanice,

I like the way the trim you used on the ceiling adds some highlights when the LED lighting is on. What kind of trim did you use on the ceiling to wall part? From your picture here - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1382943/the-grove-theater-and-basement-build/500_100#post_22450089 it is hard to tell but is looks like the bottom part is rounded. Also, how wide is the trim, about 2" or so? I went to Home Depot and couldn't find anything that resembled your pic.

I will post some updated pics soon, my soffits look a lot like yours smile.gif

Thanks.

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post #1198 of 1302 Old 11-04-2013, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Vanice,

I like the way the trim you used on the ceiling adds some highlights when the LED lighting is on. What kind of trim did you use on the ceiling to wall part? From your picture here - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1382943/the-grove-theater-and-basement-build/500_100#post_22450089 it is hard to tell but is looks like the bottom part is rounded. Also, how wide is the trim, about 2" or so? I went to Home Depot and couldn't find anything that resembled your pic.

I will post some updated pics soon, my soffits look a lot like yours smile.gif

Thanks.

Sorry for the delay in responding killravenx. I tried to find it on the Menards website but couldn't. It is pretty thin stuff (maybe 1/4"-3/8" thick). It is approx. 1 1/4" tall and it does have one rounded side to it. The top side (against the ceiling) is square.

I'll look for the pics. Glad to see your making progress. Let me know if you have any more questions I can answer.

One of these days I hope to get back to finishing my room. rolleyes.gif
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post #1199 of 1302 Old 12-02-2013, 03:57 PM
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Hey Vanice,

 

My Home Theater is in the home stretch! Thanks again for all your help.

 

I just added a pic here, and as you can see, all your help paid off! - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1478940/killravenx-theater-build/0_100#post_24023118


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post #1200 of 1302 Old 12-03-2013, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Glad I could be of help. Just posted on your thread. Room is looking really good. You'll be watching movies very soon.

No progress to report in my room. Still making a push to finish off the rest of the basement in the next two months or so. Hoping to have carpet in before the end of the year. Once everything else is done or at least to a liveable level then I will try and get back to building frames.
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