The Theater Which Mercy Built - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 207 Old 01-05-2012, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Four short weeks ago, I thought hat channel was a new DirectTV offering. "DD/GG" was a mystifying code used by people on this forum. Decoupling? Damping? Huh?

Now, after spending 75% of my waking hours reading through this forum (only partly an exaggeration), I'm an expert (100% exaggeration). So I'm gonna jump in headlong and start a build thread, despite having only a rudimentary idea of what it is I'm building. Below is a detail of my construction plans for my year-old custom built house, in which I had the architect plan out a space for a future theater room, followed by an overview of my entire basement for reference:





And here is the layout I have sketched out (I apologize for the poor quality):



Soundproofing
The HVAC system, as you can see in the rough sketch, is just next to the top wall of the proposed theater and is NOISY (a wall is to be built enclosing the mech area, as my autistic son needs to be kept away from that area). Additionally, there is a kegerator on the unfinished side of the wet bar (Boddington's on tap currently) which is not quiet. The floors above are completely hardwood, and the TV in the family room is clearly audible through the floor.

My thought is to build a room within a room concept. Double stud walls for the top and left hand sides, with single stud walls spaced 1" away from the exterior concrete walls. 5/8" double drywall with green glue for at least the interior walls not surrounded by concrete walls. Clips/channel and DD/GG for the ceiling. Here are my questions so far:

1) There is a dead space in my sketch represented by the shaded area at the top of the wall. This is about 1'6" deep? My research has indicated that an air cavity is good, but is this too much? Do I fill that up with insulation or just keep it empty?

2) Can I get away with single drywall on the interior theater walls that are surrounded by the exterior concrete walls?

3) Air return -- it should be easy to build a dead vent, but can I place the dead vent behind the screen wall (that is, to the left of the theater, behind the speakers). Alternatively, could the dead vent be placed within the dead space at the top of the theater?

4) HVAC supply -- the basement is supplied by the unit which supplies the main floor of the house, and it is on a damper system. The builder took two ducts off the main trunk just north of the top wall into the theater area (I can take pictures if this does not make sense). If I run flex duct above the soundproofed ceiling and then drop it down to a soffit at the "bottom" wall of the theater, is this adequate? Mind you, I am not concerned about sound leaking out of the theater, but rather ambient noise getting into the theater.

5) The door seems to be an exceptionally weak spot from a soundproofing standpoint. Any tricks beyond a solid-core door with an automatic door bottom?

Theater Layout
Not a lot of variables here, it would seem. I would like a 10' wide 2.35:1 AT screen. I think my viewing distances are decent. My main question is whether to do a 7.2 system with surrounds in the back and sides in columns -- do I move the back row forward a few feet? Or keep the back row all the way to the back (right) wall with rear speakers? Or just do a 5.2 system?

Equipment
I have none, except for my Xbox 360 which is primarily used to play Lego Star Wars and Lego Harry Potter. Any advice/thoughts would be appreciated.

1) Projector/lens - I do like the LCOS projectors such as the JVC RS45, but is it bright enough for a throw distance of about 17'? Will I have pincushioning at that distance? Recommendations on anamorphic lenses?

2) Screen - Stewart/Dalite/SMX??? This will be my first projector setup, so I am by no means an expert in the optics. I do want a masking system, and Stewart is obviously at the top of the price list...but is the quality of the other brands good enough?

3) Audio -- separates vs. AVR. Are separates overkill?

4) Speakers -- dipoles for the surrounds? That would be my preference, but is that an uniformed bias? Any suggestions for brands? I have looked at the B&W CT series but I think they only have monopoles for the surrounds. Also have looked into Klipsch THX Ultra II -- their surrounds appear to be dipoles. Any other speakers I should be looking into?

Well, that's all that I can think of for the moment though there will be more questions to come! Please chime in!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 207 Old 01-05-2012, 09:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Moggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California, Bay Area
Posts: 1,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Welcome to the forum and all the obsessive compulsive behavior

My suggestion is that you take things very methodically and ask questions at each phase. You are more likely to get feedback that way rather than covering everything up front. The place to start is room layout/orientation and soundproofing and not to worry too much about equipment at this phase. One quick bit of feedback is that double entry doors are very difficult to soundproof and if you care about keeping noise out (or in) then you need to think carefully about every wall and ceiling -- concrete is a very good conductor of sound and so you might want to consider a full room within a room design. Also it sounds like the HVAC system needs some work -- you need more than just some flex duct.

Are you planning a primarily DIY build to looking to employ professional help?

BTW If I had Boddington's on tap I would have never finished my theater!

Good luck


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My 8 year old daughter: "are contractors the people that mess up your house for money?"
Moggie is offline  
post #3 of 207 Old 01-05-2012, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thanks! The original plan called for double doors, but I've given up on that both for space and soundproofing considerations.

I'm not that concerned about the type of equipment. Even the layout isn't that crucial, as there don't seem to be many variables at play given the space constraints. My main equipment question is whether I should do a 7.2 or 5.2 system.

Soundproofing is my real issue, as I have no experience with it; but I think I have a decent handle on it thanks to this forum. I will be contracting the construction out - just don't have the time (or ability) to do it myself. So really that's where this whole deal starts since the isolation shell is the first thing to go up.

Anyone who comes over to help me with this project is welcome to the all the Boddington's he can handle - I can't put a dent in that keg!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #4 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 01:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 501 Post(s)
Liked: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Theater Layout
Not a lot of variables here, it would seem. I would like a 10' wide 2.35:1 AT screen. I think my viewing distances are decent. My main question is whether to do a 7.2 system with surrounds in the back and sides in columns -- do I move the back row forward a few feet? Or keep the back row all the way to the back (right) wall with rear speakers? Or just do a 5.2 system?

Looks like you're off to a great start.

Many of the answers to these questions will be based on how you value the MLP (main listening position, or the money seat) relative to the other seats. If the primary focus is aimed at the MLP experience, then a 5.1 system can suffice. But given the modest extra cost in going 7.1, and the strong benefits for everyone, I'd highly recommend that.

The rear seats have the listener's heads just about 2' from the rear wall, which is almost the same as in my slightly smaller theater. Having sat there, I can say it works just fine. The row pitch being 6'5" seems about right for full recliners. If you can use 6' pitch, then the extra 5" should go behind the rear seats.

Assuming the MLP is front row center, that would be the anchor point for setting screen size and speaker locations. You mentioned a 10' wide screen. At a 9' viewing distance, that's a viewing angle of 58 deg. It's on the wide side, but for a CIH system, probably very effective for widescreen content. It's something you can decide using the PJ on a temporary sheet hanging where the screen would be and having a look.

You mention "7.2" as in 2 subs, and that's great. Where to put them? Might be good to reserve several options. The natural choice is up front, but I'd also suggest trying the side walls flanking the front row. This might be more effective in smoothing the room modes. The attached shows where I mean, and also shows where I'd recommend position the 4 surrounds for a 7.2 system. I'm showing monopoles canted on angles to best reach the furthest seats. You mentioned about dipoles, and they could indeed be used for the Ls/Rs. If possible, switchable dipole/bipole would be a nice option, just in case one setting speaks to you better. For example, an alternative to the Klipsch KS-525 would be the IWTS-30 SR from Atlantic Technology.
LL

Roger

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #5 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 05:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Moggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California, Bay Area
Posts: 1,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Thanks! The original plan called for double doors, but I've given up on that both for space and soundproofing considerations.
...
Soundproofing is my real issue, as I have no experience with it; but I think I have a decent handle on it thanks to this forum.

I should have looked more closely at your last layout picture. I see the single door now and it looks like you are intending a room within a room. No doubt you have seen this already, but this post is an excellent resource. I'd suggest you contact Ted White and get a hold of his white papers on soundproofing especially the HVAC one. Looks like you are already getting expert advice on speaker layout...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My 8 year old daughter: "are contractors the people that mess up your house for money?"
Moggie is offline  
post #6 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thanks for the feedback!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Looks like you're off to a great start.

Many of the answers to these questions will be based on how you value the MLP (main listening position, or the money seat) relative to the other seats. If the primary focus is aimed at the MLP experience, then a 5.1 system can suffice. But given the modest extra cost in going 7.1, and the strong benefits for everyone, I'd highly recommend that.

Interestingly, my personal preference is to sit a bit further back from the screen with narrower viewing angles. As drawn, the back row's viewing distance is about 16' (1.6W for 2.35 content, but a bit heftier 2.1W for 16:9 content -- and I do watch a lot of sports and other 16:9 content). So in my mind, I should try to move the rear row up a little to optimize audio and video for that row -- since the average number of viewers will be 3 at any one time and all could sit on the back row.


Quote:


The rear seats have the listener's heads just about 2' from the rear wall, which is almost the same as in my slightly smaller theater. Having sat there, I can say it works just fine. The row pitch being 6'5" seems about right for full recliners. If you can use 6' pitch, then the extra 5" should go behind the rear seats.

By pitch, do you mean the distance between the backs of the two rows? I have it drawn for 6'6" at present. I am a bit worried that it brings the front row a little too close, but then as noted above, I'm unlikely to sit on the front row very much.

Quote:


You mention "7.2" as in 2 subs, and that's great. Where to put them? Might be good to reserve several options. The natural choice is up front, but I'd also suggest trying the side walls flanking the front row. This might be more effective in smoothing the room modes. The attached shows where I mean, and also shows where I'd recommend position the 4 surrounds for a 7.2 system. I'm showing monopoles canted on angles to best reach the furthest seats. You mentioned about dipoles, and they could indeed be used for the Ls/Rs. If possible, switchable dipole/bipole would be a nice option, just in case one setting speaks to you better. For example, an alternative to the Klipsch KS-525 would be the IWTS-30 SR from Atlantic Technology.

I have strongly considered putting the subs on the sides -- but then is recommended to use inwalls or to hide the subs in a column (my column placement in the sketch was essentially arbitrary to start off with)? Also, in your diagram, are the L/Rs placed in the two side columns flanking the second row? Would the two angled rear speakers be optimizing audio for the back row or first row? I will look into the Atlantic Technology speakers too -- thanks for the tip.

I should also mention that I could decrease the width of the room if it were to add any acoustial advantage.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #7 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

I should have looked more closely at your last layout picture. I see the single door now and it looks like you are intending a room within a room. No doubt you have seen this already, but this post is an excellent resource. I'd suggest you contact Ted White and get a hold of his white papers on soundproofing especially the HVAC one. Looks like you are already getting expert advice on speaker layout...

Oh yes, I've been going through the Dark Knight build -- only a quarter of the way through at present!

I have also devoured the information on Ted's web site, and I plan to get in touch with him soon. I'm actually meeting with a contractor tomorrow to walk him through the sound proofing process (blind leading the blind?) and get a preliminary bid so I can set a preliminary budget. This stuff really gets one wound up -- I'm even dreaming about HT at night!

Another question that I thought of regarding construction: how big should the soffit be around the perimeter of the room? I was thinking 18" x 18", with the PJ tucked into the soffit at the back.

I know that a soffit muffler would be the ideal way of running the HVAC supply into the room, but here is my dilemma. I would like to put recessed lights in the soffit with no lights on the ceiling (which I plan to treat acoustically). With a soffit muffler, I understand that ideally I would need put backer boxes on all the recessed cans, and truthfully I'm a bit intimidated by having to walk a contractor through that process. Also, I need to think about construction cost in general so things don't get out of hand.

So, how necessary is the soffit muffler if the supply is running above the decoupled ceiling and then dropping down on the bottom side of the theater, when my goal is primarily to keep sound out of the room.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #8 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 07:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Moggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California, Bay Area
Posts: 1,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Another question that I thought of regarding construction: how big should the soffit be around the perimeter of the room? I was thinking 18" x 18", with the PJ tucked into the soffit at the back.

I know that a soffit muffler would be the ideal way of running the HVAC supply into the room, but here is my dilemma. I would like to put recessed lights in the soffit with no lights on the ceiling (which I plan to treat acoustically). With a soffit muffler, I understand that ideally I would need put backer boxes on all the recessed cans, and truthfully I'm a bit intimidated by having to walk a contractor through that process. Also, I need to think about construction cost in general so things don't get out of hand.

So, how necessary is the soffit muffler if the supply is running above the decoupled ceiling and then dropping down on the bottom side of the theater, when my goal is primarily to keep sound out of the room.

A 18" high soffit may bring the ceiling heigh down to much IMHO, around 12" would be better -- mine are 14" but I started with a 10' ceiling and I lost a few inches with a suspended star ceiling. What I did (and many others have done too) is to fit the down lights into a light tray surrounding the soffit and thus freeing up the soffit for HVAC soundproofing or as bass trap. You can take a look at my soffit details starting here which builds the soffits inside of the room shell. One other idea is to build a HVAC muffler outside of the theater shell surrounding the flex duct.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My 8 year old daughter: "are contractors the people that mess up your house for money?"
Moggie is offline  
post #9 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

A 18" high soffit may bring the ceiling heigh down to much IMHO, around 12" would be better -- mine are 14" but I started with a 10' ceiling and I lost a few inches with a suspended star ceiling. What I did (and many others have done too) is to fit the down lights into a light tray surrounding the soffit and thus freeing up the soffit for HVAC soundproofing or as bass trap. You can take a look at my soffit details starting here which builds the soffits inside of the room shell. One other idea is to build a HVAC muffler outside of the theater shell surrounding the flex duct.

Your build is extremely cool. Reading through it is going to be my weekend task. My ceiling is 9'8" right now, and with clips/channel and double drywall I'll lose another 3" at least, so that's a good idea to keep the soffit at 12". However, a width of 12" seems a little puny to me given the overall width of the room. Though I don't want it to feel like the soffit is going to drop down on the heads of the back row -- with a riser of 1', you're already talking about only 7-7.5' height at the back.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #10 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 08:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Moggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California, Bay Area
Posts: 1,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Your build is extremely cool. Reading through it is going to be my weekend task.

You will need a lot of coffee!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

My ceiling is 9'8" right now, and with clips/channel and double drywall I'll lose another 3" at least, so that's a good idea to keep the soffit at 12". However, a width of 12" seems a little puny to me given the overall width of the room. Though I don't want it to feel like the soffit is going to drop down on the heads of the back row -- with a riser of 1', you're already talking about only 7-7.5' height at the back.

12" was referring to height. The soffits can extend much further into the room than that. With light tray mine are 2'6". If the projector is at the back of the room you can easily just build a taller hush box to house the projector and integrate that into the soffit.

You are lucky to have a higher ceiling as a starting point and thus have more options. A high ceiling definitely creates a more airy feel.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My 8 year old daughter: "are contractors the people that mess up your house for money?"
Moggie is offline  
post #11 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 08:18 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
dc_pilgrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Central... PA
Posts: 4,617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I would strongly consider dropping the $600 on the basic design service that is mentioned in the sticky'd links on this forum. And, ideally talk to Ted before you talk to your contractors.

I think you are well on your way. Where are going to put the rack? I'd get it out of the room. One suggestion in image attached. Also, when you enclose the HVAC, if its gas, make sure it gets enough combustible air.

The footprint seems like a heck of a house. I'd put $$ into getting the room right and go basic on all the gear. Upgrades offer a lifetime of fun.
LL

Dave

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dc_pilgrim is offline  
post #12 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

I would strongly consider dropping the $600 on the basic design service that is mentioned in the sticky'd links on this forum. And, ideally talk to Ted before you talk to your contractors.

I think you are well on your way. Where are going to put the rack? I'd get it out of the room. One suggestion in image attached. Also, when you enclose the HVAC, if its gas, make sure it gets enough combustible air.

The footprint seems like a heck of a house. I'd put $$ into getting the room right and go basic on all the gear. Upgrades offer a lifetime of fun.

Actually, that's exactly where I want to put the rack. It'll have to be moved a little to the right because there is a cold air return right there, so it'll be directly opposite the theater entrance. That's currently where my router, ethernet switch, and all phone/directv cables are, and I can incorporate those into the rack as well.

Not sure I understand what you mean by combustible air with the HVAC. I actually won't be able to enclose it entirely because the ductwork and piping are flush against the joists. So it won't be a good soundproofing system. The main purpose is to have it surrounded by walls with a locking door so that my son can't get at the water heater and furnace. Same goes for the rack -- both front and back will need to have locking doors, and the front door will have to be solid so he won't go down just to stare at all the flashing lights.

The house is awesome, been in it for a over a year now and love it. It was one and a half years in the design phase, and a year in construction -- but worth it. I'll post some pictures later.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #13 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

You will need a lot of coffee!



12" was referring to height. The soffits can extend much further into the room than that. With light tray mine are 2'6". If the projector is at the back of the room you can easily just build a taller hush box to house the projector and integrate that into the soffit.

You are lucky to have a higher ceiling as a starting point and thus have more options. A high ceiling definitely creates a more airy feel.

Yeah, the house was designed with explicit instruction to the architect that I wanted a 10' pour and that the theater area was to have no ductwork or piping that would force me to drop the ceiling any lower. I think I will do around a 2' wide soffit and 12" high.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #14 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 01:28 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
dc_pilgrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Central... PA
Posts: 4,617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Not sure I understand what you mean by combustible air with the HVAC. I actually won't be able to enclose it entirely because the ductwork and piping are flush against the joists. So it won't be a good soundproofing system. The main purpose is to have it surrounded by walls with a locking door so that my son can't get at the water heater and furnace. Same goes for the rack -- both front and back will need to have locking doors, and the front door will have to be solid so he won't go down just to stare at all the flashing lights.

Gas powered furnaces and h/w heaters need a certain capacity of oxygen or problems ensue. Some people when designing their basements can wall them in to tightly, so their wouldn't be enough oxygen for them to maintain the flame. The solution is don't cut off there air supply either by using louvered doors or making the utility space bigger or not sealing the space. It sounds like you won't have the space fully enclosed, but might want to bounce it off your contractor. I am not an expert, but it was something I picked up reading here.

In my drawing I was noting a general area for the rack. You should be able to use cheap rails only (plus expensive shelves) if you don't wind up loading it with a lot of heavy amps, assuming you go rackmount not DIY. I had an example in my old theater, or you can find examples in the show me thread. Spend some time in those threads (sticky) if you haven't yet.

Dave

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dc_pilgrim is offline  
post #15 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 04:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 501 Post(s)
Liked: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

By pitch, do you mean the distance between the backs of the two rows?

Yes, any like anchor point: backs, fronts, eyeballs...

Quote:


I have it drawn for 6'6" at present. I am a bit worried that it brings the front row a little too close, but then as noted above, I'm unlikely to sit on the front row very much.

Rather than deciding which row you want to occupy, it would be better to decide the experience you want to create.

Quote:


Interestingly, my personal preference is to sit a bit further back from the screen with narrower viewing angles. As drawn, the back row's viewing distance is about 16' (1.6W for 2.35 content, but a bit heftier 2.1W for 16:9 content -- and I do watch a lot of sports and other 16:9 content).

But lots of movies are 1.85, so that should be part of the consideration.

Quote:


So in my mind, I should try to move the rear row up a little to optimize audio and video for that row -- since the average number of viewers will be 3 at any one time and all could sit on the back row.

The ratio of front vs rear view angle increases as the front row gets closer to the screen, and as the distance between rows increases. 6'6" is necessary for full recliners in the rear. But if you feel that 3 seats are of primary importance and the others less so, you could save 2.5' of space between rows by using seating such as Ekornes which have reclining seatbacks, but no footrests, for just the back row. That means the front row eyeballs would move from 9' to 11.5', taking the view angle down from 58 deg to 47 deg, which might be much more to your liking. (And of course the screen can also be reduced if need be.)

In case you don't have this handy calculator, have a look. It can come in handy when juggling these dimensions.

Quote:


I have strongly considered putting the subs on the sides -- but then is recommended to use inwalls or to hide the subs in a column (my column placement in the sketch was essentially arbitrary to start off with)?

Yes, hiding the subs is a good idea. If you intend to maintain high isolation, the columns would do so without penetrating the envelope. Atlantic,Triad and others make good in-wall subs, and if, down the road, you want to add some extra infrasonic whomp, a heftier ULF sub can be added up front, crossed over, say at 30 Hz. I only mention this in case someone tries to assert that inwall subs are inadequate.

Quote:


Also, in your diagram, are the L/Rs placed in the two side columns flanking the second row?

Yes they can be put inside the columns, as long as the surfaces are all cloth.

Quote:


Would the two angled rear speakers be optimizing audio for the back row or first row?

I do not look at the angles as optimizing one row over the other, but optimizing for both rows. Changing the angles will not improve one row, but will degrade the other.

Quote:


I should also mention that I could decrease the width of the room if it were to add any acoustial advantage.

Don't do that. The greater distance from the surrounds to the seats only improves the uniformity of coverage.

Roger

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #16 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

Gas powered furnaces and h/w heaters need a certain capacity of oxygen or problems ensue. Some people when designing their basements can wall them in to tightly, so their wouldn't be enough oxygen for them to maintain the flame. The solution is don't cut off there air supply either by using louvered doors or making the utility space bigger or not sealing the space. It sounds like you won't have the space fully enclosed, but might want to bounce it off your contractor. I am not an expert, but it was something I picked up reading here.

In my drawing I was noting a general area for the rack. You should be able to use cheap rails only (plus expensive shelves) if you don't wind up loading it with a lot of heavy amps, assuming you go rackmount not DIY. I had an example in my old theater, or you can find examples in the show me thread. Spend some time in those threads (sticky) if you haven't yet.

I need to check out the rack thread more carefully. I got a quote from a local dealer for over $5000 for a rack plus power conditioners and cooling fans. Seemed a tad excessive.

Definitely will bounce the HVAC off the contractor.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #17 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Rather than deciding which row you want to occupy, it would be better to decide the experience you want to create.

But lots of movies are 1.85, so that should be part of the consideration.


Undersood. For me, the greatest enjoyment will come from immersing myself in movies. And that will be come at viewing distance of around 16' for 2.35 content. I can always move to the front row for 16:9 content or 1.85 movies if I find that viewing angles are too small at the greater distance.


Quote:


The ratio of front vs rear view angle increases as the front row gets closer to the screen, and as the distance between rows increases. 6'6" is necessary for full recliners in the rear. But if you feel that 3 seats are of primary importance and the others less so, you could save 2.5' of space between rows by using seating such as Ekornes which have reclining seatbacks, but no footrests, for just the back row. That means the front row eyeballs would move from 9' to 11.5', taking the view angle down from 58 deg to 47 deg, which might be much more to your liking. (And of course the screen can also be reduced if need be.)

I think I gotta keep the recliners in all seats, so would compromise the distances a little for that. Would it make any sense to move the back row all the way to the back wall?


Quote:


Yes they can be put inside the columns, as long as the surfaces are all cloth.

I've seen builds on AVS with speakers inside wood columns...do you mean that the whole column should be covered in acoustic cloth or just the parts covering up the speakers.


Quote:


I do not look at the angles as optimizing one row over the other, but optimizing for both rows. Changing the angles will not improve one row, but will degrade the other.

Any benefit to moving the rear speakers to the back wall and making them both dipoles/bipoles?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #18 of 207 Old 01-06-2012, 10:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 501 Post(s)
Liked: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Undersood. For me, the greatest enjoyment will come from immersing myself in movies. And that will be come at viewing distance of around 16' for 2.35 content. I can always move to the front row for 16:9 content or 1.85 movies if I find that viewing angles are too small at the greater distance.

Makes sense.

Quote:


I think I gotta keep the recliners in all seats, so would compromise the distances a little for that. Would it make any sense to move the back row all the way to the back wall?

No. The bass buildup back there would be very annoying.

Quote:


I've seen builds on AVS with speakers inside wood columns...do you mean that the whole column should be covered in acoustic cloth or just the parts covering up the speakers.

I meant just the parts in the sound path. Then the speakers can be angled to the optimal direction and no one will see what's going on.

Quote:


Any benefit to moving the rear speakers to the back wall and making them both dipoles/bipoles?

I do not think so. The closer they get to the seats, the more likely they are to "hot spot" to the nearest listeners.

Roger

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #19 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Roger, thanks. So, dipoles/bipoles hidden in the columns for the L/R's and monopoles tucked in the corners for the rears in a 7.2 system. Alternatively, just dipoles in the columns if I decide to go 5.2?

I think I would seriously consider in-wall subs -- I'm not the kind of guy that likes bone rattling bass in the first place.

From a seating layout perspective: I know it is recommended to have 6'6" from back of the first row to back of the second row. Is this because you want to have space in the back row so that a person sitting a in a fully reclined seat doesn't have to "unrecline" for someone else to get past him? If that is the primary consideration, I would think about moving the first row back a foot and cutting into that 6'6" -- not that big a deal to me to have to "unrecline" and would get the first row into a slightly more ideal viewing distance for 2.35 material. Or am I being foolish?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #20 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Back to some soundproofing/construction questions:

1) For the interior theater walls that are next to exterior concrete foundation, can I get away with a single layer of drywall? How about a 2" x 2" stud instead of 2 x 4"? Primary consideration is not cost but rather saving some of the length of the room.

2) Bottom plate for framing should not contact the concrete floor and gap should be sealed with acoustic caulking, correct?

3) OSB for subfloor should not contact the perimeter perimeter, and should be installed after the perimeter drywall? Baseboard should also not contact the subfloor?

4) Riser can be screwed/glued into the perimeter drywall, but stage should not contact? Should gap between stage and drywall be sealed with SilenSeal?

Moggie, thanks a bunch for the tip on soffit lighting. I then saw a similar trick in the Cinemar thread where the recessed cans are installed in woodwork that is extending off the soffit. Very neat, I will hopefully be able to use that in my design.

dc-pilgrim, contractor is looking into code requirements for enclosing the HVAC unit and thinks he can construct a drop ceiling...any soundproofing thoughts? The water heater has a powered vent that turns on every time hot water is run in the kitchen or second floor bathroom and is unbelievably loud even when sitting upstairs. Very annoying. Thanks for the tip on the HVAC!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #21 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 10:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Moggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California, Bay Area
Posts: 1,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

I would think about moving the first row back a foot and cutting into that 6'6" -- not that big a deal to me to have to "unrecline" and would get the first row into a slightly more ideal viewing distance for 2.35 material. Or am I being foolish?

I wouldn't do this unless you find a smaller frame chair with compact reclining mechanism. The way most mechanisms it isn't as simple as not fully reclining -- the leg rests tend to come into position first and even at 6'6" feet in the second row can touch the top of the seat backs in the front row.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Back to some soundproofing/construction questions:

1) For the interior theater walls that are next to exterior concrete foundation, can I get away with a single layer of drywall? How about a 2" x 2" stud instead of 2 x 4"? Primary consideration is not cost but rather saving some of the length of the room.

Part of the sound isolation is the air gap between the concrete and the inner drywall. If the concrete is flat you possibly could use isolation clips and HAT channel and mount the drywall to that(?) ... others may have better advice here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

2) Bottom plate for framing should not contact the concrete floor and gap should be sealed with acoustic caulking, correct?

If you are not isolating the floor the bottom plate can sit on the concrete (if PT wood of course). Sealing with caulking is a must. Some folks use a sealing foam strip but I don't believe this adds must in the way of isolation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

3) OSB for subfloor should not contact the perimeter perimeter, and should be installed after the perimeter drywall? Baseboard should also not contact the subfloor?

That is the method I used. Keeping all the room surfaces separated to minimize coupling. My drywall did not touch the concrete either and that gap was caulked. The subfloor was left 1/4" shy of the drywall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

4) Riser can be screwed/glued into the perimeter drywall, but stage should not contact? Should gap between stage and drywall be sealed with SilenSeal?

Correct, although I built my riser in the same way as the stage. The gap between stage and drywall can be left open or lightly plugged with of that "pink fluffy stuff" that you are shortly going to hate. The riser should be completely filled with insulation. I guess you could also caulk the stage gap but I don't think it is necessary. BTW quality 50 year caulk is just as good as SilenSeal although I did like the way SilenSeal flows into the gap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Moggie, thanks a bunch for the tip on soffit lighting. I then saw a similar trick in the Cinemar thread where the recessed cans are installed in woodwork that is extending off the soffit. Very neat, I will hopefully be able to use that in my design.

Cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

dc-pilgrim, contractor is looking into code requirements for enclosing the HVAC unit and thinks he can construct a drop ceiling...any soundproofing thoughts? The water heater has a powered vent that turns on every time hot water is run in the kitchen or second floor bathroom and is unbelievably loud even when sitting upstairs. Very annoying. Thanks for the tip on the HVAC!

Note that drop ceilings don't soundproof in any meaningful way..


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My 8 year old daughter: "are contractors the people that mess up your house for money?"
Moggie is offline  
post #22 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Some pictures of the basement.

1) Looking back toward HVAC unit from bottom-left corner of theater area



2) Looking toward stairwell where screen will be placed



3) Entryway area of theater



4) HVAC/water heater



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #23 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Some other pictures for interest (and because I'm proud of the house!)

Front elevation



Finished billiard room



Another angle of billiard room



The HT is my signal to finish up the billiard/bar area too, since it's pretty bare. My plan is to do a Rock n' Roll theme with framed vinyl albums, black and white photographs, and posters of my favorite rock artists -- Stones, Zeppelin, Beatles, Hendrix. I also want to put two inexpensive flat screens for in the area -- thoughts on placement?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #24 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
And for Moggie:



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #25 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

I wouldn't do this unless you find a smaller frame chair with compact reclining mechanism. The way most mechanisms it isn't as simple as not fully reclining -- the leg rests tend to come into position first and even at 6'6" feet in the second row can touch the top of the seat backs in the front row.

Gotcha. Any suggestions for smaller framed chairs?

Quote:
Part of the sound isolation is the air gap between the concrete and the inner drywall. If the concrete is flat you possibly could use isolation clips and HAT channel and mount the drywall to that(?) ... others may have better advice here.

I don't know that the concrete is level enough for that, but I'll check into that.


Quote:
Correct, although I built my riser in the same way as the stage. The gap between stage and drywall can be left open or lightly plugged with of that "pink fluffy stuff" that you are shortly going to hate. The riser should be completely filled with insulation. I guess you could also caulk the stage gap but I don't think it is necessary. BTW quality 50 year caulk is just as good as SilenSeal although I did like the way SilenSeal flows into the gap.

Yeah, reading through your thread I can tell how much you love insulation! Fortunately, I'm gonna leave all the dirty work up to the contractor and oversee it with a Boddington's in hand!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #26 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 12:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Moggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California, Bay Area
Posts: 1,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

And for Moggie:

That was below the belt...

It just passed noon in California so I'm going to have a liquid lunch at my local British pub


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My 8 year old daughter: "are contractors the people that mess up your house for money?"
Moggie is offline  
post #27 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
It's not just for breakfast anymore. Seriously, if you wanna build this theater for me, you can have all the Boddington's you desire.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #28 of 207 Old 01-07-2012, 04:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 501 Post(s)
Liked: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Roger, thanks. So, dipoles/bipoles hidden in the columns for the L/R's and monopoles tucked in the corners for the rears in a 7.2 system.

Yes.

Quote:


Alternatively, just dipoles in the columns if I decide to go 5.2?

If you go for 5.1 with the MLP in the rear row, it poses a conundrum in that ideally you'd want to use the rear speaker locations. But that will leave the front row listeners a little out in the cold when it comes to surround envelopment. No matter where you put them, it's not easy to cover 2 rows of seats with a single pair of surrounds.

Quote:


From a seating layout perspective: I know it is recommended to have 6'6" from back of the first row to back of the second row. Is this because you want to have space in the back row so that a person sitting a in a fully reclined seat doesn't have to "unrecline" for someone else to get past him?

I think the main issue is to keep the rear person's toes out of the front person's hair. But you have neatly avoided that with the staggered seating.

Quote:


If that is the primary consideration, I would think about moving the first row back a foot and cutting into that 6'6" -- not that big a deal to me to have to "unrecline" and would get the first row into a slightly more ideal viewing distance for 2.35 material. Or am I being foolish?

You have to take into account the actual recliners you are planning, as they may extend differently based on zero rear-wall clearance, etc., not to mention any footrest overhang as may happen with long-legged viewers.

Roger

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #29 of 207 Old 01-08-2012, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
rs691919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Yes.

If you go for 5.1 with the MLP in the rear row, it poses a conundrum in that ideally you'd want to use the rear speaker locations. But that will leave the front row listeners a little out in the cold when it comes to surround envelopment. No matter where you put them, it's not easy to cover 2 rows of seats with a single pair of surrounds.

I think the main issue is to keep the rear person's toes out of the front person's hair. But you have neatly avoided that with the staggered seating.

You have to take into account the actual recliners you are planning, as they may extend differently based on zero rear-wall clearance, etc., not to mention any footrest overhang as may happen with long-legged viewers.

Based on your advice and my previous inclination, I'm leaning to a 7.1 system. I've done some research on the Atlantic Technology speakers, they are now high on the list. I wish I could say but I had planned out the staggered seating, but the reality is I just chose the number seven pretty arbitrarily.

I will continue the search for smaller framed chairs -- can't seem to find any thus far in my price range.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rs691919 is offline  
post #30 of 207 Old 01-13-2012, 10:09 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,712
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 356 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

Gas powered furnaces and h/w heaters need a certain capacity of oxygen or problems ensue. Some people when designing their basements can wall them in to tightly, so their wouldn't be enough oxygen for them to maintain the flame. The solution is don't cut off there air supply either by using louvered doors or making the utility space bigger or not sealing the space. It sounds like you won't have the space fully enclosed, but might want to bounce it off your contractor. I am not an expert, but it was something I picked up reading here.

In my drawing I was noting a general area for the rack. You should be able to use cheap rails only (plus expensive shelves) if you don't wind up loading it with a lot of heavy amps, assuming you go rackmount not DIY. I had an example in my old theater, or you can find examples in the show me thread. Spend some time in those threads (sticky) if you haven't yet.

Nearly all of the newer gas furnaces have sealed combustion chambers that draw outside air and discharge the combustion air back outside.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is online now  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off