BABES Cinema - Design Phase - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 05:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I am starting to design a house with the intention of breaking ground in 2-3 years. I don't know if I am more excited about the house or having a dedicated home theatre designed from scratch.

Why BABES Cinema? BABES is the first initials of everybody in my family put together and is a common term amongst family and friends.

I have been lurking around here for years and know what I want for the most part but I need to ensure that what I want gives me the expected outcome I want.
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post #2 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 05:22 AM - Thread Starter
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post #3 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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post #5 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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The house is just starting the design phase and at current I will have a family room protruding from the rear of my house. The dimensions of that room are 26' out by 24' wide. I know this is not ideal since it is close to square. I am going to bring in the sidewalls and these false walls will serve as the backwave chambers for IB subs on either side of the room. Each chamber will be 2 or 4 Fi IB18s. I already have two IB18s in my current house and the thought of 8 in an enclosed room screams overhead and extreme performance. The 26' dimension is also floating since the room can protrude into the basement if need be. I would like an accoustcally transparent wall and screen to house the mains with a stage. I will probably keep the equipment in a rack in a closet outside the entrance to the room. I would like to have seating for 15. The attached image is a capture of the floor space above where the cinema would be.

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post #6 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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  1. Determine Theme
    a. I have looked through lots of theatre designs and while I love the beautiful ones they obviously add lots of dollars to the budget.
    b. I figured since the lights are dim or off most of the time when in the theatre, I am going for function over form.
    c. I have in my mind that I want a midnight or dark blue room with very mild orange accents since I am a huge Illinois sports fan.
  2. Hire Dennis
  3. Work on Sound Isolation
  4. Ensure IB False Walls are sufficient
  5. Start Equipment List
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post #7 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 11:10 AM
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I was lured here for the babes... Where are the babes. Geez

Might you add the stairwell location in your drawing?

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post #8 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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If I go by Sepmeyer Ratio 3 my ceiling height would need to be 12 ft if I roughly want the room 19ft wide. I doubt I dig this portion of the basement 3 ft deeper than the rest so how important is the height dimension especially since there will be risers as well?

Ceiling Height(C) Width(1.6C) Length(2.33C)
9' 14.4' 20.97'
10' 16' 23.3'
11' 17.6' 25.63'
12' 19.2' 27.96'

Is there another equation I should be looking at for calculating room dimensions?
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post #9 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

I was lured here for the babes... Where are the babes. Geez

Might you add the stairwell location in your drawing?

Maybe I should post a weekly "BABE" to get more traffic and therefor help on my build.

The total basement square footage will be around 2400 and the staircase will be on the other side of the basement. I have started some dimensioning of the theatre room and will post this soon.
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post #10 of 36 Old 01-19-2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesquin View Post

  1. Determine L & W Dimensions
  2. Determing Height Dimension
  3. Design Riser Layout
  4. Design Stage/False Wall Layout
  5. Ensure IB False Walls are sufficient
  6. Start Equipment List

I'll be watching this - grew up in the area (Danville), went to UofI, still pissed about the Chief. Fun to follow a Central IL basement build!

On your list should be, early on:
  • Hire Dennis for a theater design (can't beat the price)
  • Think a lot about sound isolation (you already got Ted's attention)
  • Don't worry about finalizing the equipment list, it'll change in the next two years.
  • Go to CEDIA in Indy this September. Invaluable for planning and test-driving seating, etc.


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post #11 of 36 Old 01-20-2012, 07:51 AM
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Nice to see a local on here, Hoopeston here. Good luck with the house and theater.
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post #12 of 36 Old 01-20-2012, 09:16 AM
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+1


Quote:
Originally Posted by ted white View Post

i was lured here for the babes... Where are the babes. Geez
...

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post #13 of 36 Old 01-20-2012, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

I'll be watching this - grew up in the area (Danville), went to UofI, still pissed about the Chief. Fun to follow a Central IL basement build!

On your list should be, early on:
  • Hire Dennis for a theater design (can't beat the price)
  • Think a lot about sound isolation (you already got Ted's attention)
  • Don't worry about finalizing the equipment list, it'll change in the next two years.
  • Go to CEDIA in Indy this September. Invaluable for planning and test-driving seating, etc.


Jeff

Thanks for the awesome feedback... The service Dennis provides looks to be well worth the money. And yes the NCAA and Chief issue is still a very bitter subject for me as well. I will adjust my to do list appropriately. Danville or Schlarman? What year did you graduate HS?
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post #14 of 36 Old 01-20-2012, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechatech View Post

Nice to see a local on here, Hoopeston here. Good luck with the house and theater.

Are you associated with the theatre that was/is in Hoopeston? Go Jerkers!!! I was an assistant FB coach for the Bunnies... not sure which one is worse!!!
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post #15 of 36 Old 01-20-2012, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesquin View Post

Go Jerkers!!! I was an assistant FB coach for the Bunnies...


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post #16 of 36 Old 01-20-2012, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesquin View Post

I will adjust my to do list appropriately. Danville or Schlarman? What year did you graduate HS?

DHS class of '86! Now that makes me feel old...

You only need to look at some of the AVSforum designs Dennis has done and have been posted here to see the detail and experience. It wasn't offered when I could have used it. I "dismissed" the idea of using a pro design firm (non-local), as the 'basic' service was 3x what Dennis now offers, and the 'advanced' services were a lot higher than that. I felt like my experience meant that the basic service probably didn't buy me much, and more than that just made me choke on the cost!

That, and since by the time I designed the theater the room dimensions were fixed (constructed), so any major changes were probably something I would reject out of practicality anyway...

Jeff

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post #17 of 36 Old 01-22-2012, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesquin View Post

Are you associated with the theatre that was/is in Hoopeston? Go Jerkers!!! I was an assistant FB coach for the Bunnies... not sure which one is worse!!!

No, but the Lorraine theater in Hoopeston is really cool. It's still here and open. Although occasionally closes down during off peak movie seasons. They recently got a new screen and the sound is still the best around.

Cool!, Go Jerkers!
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post #18 of 36 Old 01-22-2012, 05:20 AM
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2 years out, ok , need high level goals before you plant the trees
-room theme?
-any unique characteristic you want in this room?
-how many other home theatres have you been in? local meets?
Did you see items you want for your dream HT

Seating for 15....ok, 3 rows 5 each? Rough math.
12foot from screen 1st row, 6 ft space each row...18foot 2nd....24ft 3rd....2.5 ft behind 3rd row....3ft for AT screen.
I get 29.5 feet, you could squeeze that slightly, might work.

29.5Lx20Wx10h=5,900 cu ft.
You really need careful selection of your soundstage to reach 105db ref in your 2nd row with clean sound.

Your IB back wave sealed space can still fit?

Dedicated zone HVAC.

Look at Art S ht.

Read the things i would have done differently thread, lot of lessons learned there.

Will you DIY everything, or contract some items?

Btw, I also was looking for babes......
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post #19 of 36 Old 01-23-2012, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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This is my initial layout. Of course Dennis would probably have something to say about it. The false walls on the side should be more than enough volume to house two sets if IB18s each. It will also allow allow almost unlimited flexibility in subwoofer placement since they can be placed anywhere horizontally and vertically. I was thinking only 12 - 18 in on the AT wall. I was initially thinking just some lower end towers for the front stage and moving to some line arrays, but maybe the line arrays will have to come immediately. I will do all the work myself more than likely.

Attachment 235111
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post #20 of 36 Old 01-23-2012, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is the basement layout at current.

Attachment 235112
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post #21 of 36 Old 01-23-2012, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I updated the to do list as well.
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post #22 of 36 Old 01-23-2012, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Mechatech, do you have a dedicated HT?
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post #23 of 36 Old 01-23-2012, 09:47 PM
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When you say you want seating for 15 (that was my original thinking, too), do you want 15 recliners, theater seats, bar table, or a mix of some/all of those. At 19' wide you're going to be very tight (or just plain not wide enough) for 5 recliners wide. My 16' wide room barely fit 4 recliners, and I did a center-loveseat arrangement (which saved 3-5").

Also, think about seating in the budget - it can be a real big line item. Even "budget" seating, times 15, comes out to a be a pretty big number.

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post #24 of 36 Old 01-24-2012, 03:46 AM
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15 people. Need to rethink that. Minimum ceiling height 10'. Some practical considerations: 15 people means 7,500 BTU/hr cooling, 225 cfm of fresh air and six air exchanges per hour. You're not going to be able to enter the room from the back of the room, seat 15 people (sardine style) without lowering the floor in that space by at least 2' (maybe more). With that depth and width you'll have a real challenge getting viewing angles correct. Screen placement Will be a significant problem (too high for the front row) and the rear seats will possibly block the projector. IB subs are interesting; but, only one of several types of subs which eat up far less of your planned floor space and perform equally well.

Think about the practicality of seating for 15. Your costs will sky rocket ... bigger screen, bigger projector, 8 surround speakers, speakers capable of supporting the seating distances you'll have, HVAC issues and others. So, if you want to ratchet up your costs for the benefits of entertaining friends occasionally, that's fine. That's a personal choice (I would buy an airplane to seat 15 friends but they'll not be paying the costs and 99.9999% of the time there will be only 3 aboard.) If you have 15 in your immediate family great! (I'm from Utah ... I understand that).

Why not take a different approach? Rather than drawing a box and attempting to put your "stuff" in the box, define all your objectives, meet those objectives, assign $$$ to those objectives, make your compromises and then draw a box around that. Forget about the bloody ratios (I've made many posts about this nonsense so I'm not going to repeat that here).

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post #25 of 36 Old 01-24-2012, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesquin View Post

Mechatech, do you have a dedicated HT?

Yes, currently building it. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1354094
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post #26 of 36 Old 01-24-2012, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

15 people. Need to rethink that. Minimum ceiling height 10'. Some practical considerations: 15 people means 7,500 BTU/hr cooling, 225 cfm of fresh air and six air exchanges per hour. You're not going to be able to enter the room from the back of the room, seat 15 people (sardine style) without lowering the floor in that space by at least 2' (maybe more). With that depth and width you'll have a real challenge getting viewing angles correct. Screen placement Will be a significant problem (too high for the front row) and the rear seats will possibly block the projector. IB subs are interesting; but, only one of several types of subs which eat up far less of your planned floor space and perform equally well.

Think about the practicality of seating for 15. Your costs will sky rocket ... bigger screen, bigger projector, 8 surround speakers, speakers capable of supporting the seating distances you'll have, HVAC issues and others. So, if you want to ratchet up your costs for the benefits of entertaining friends occasionally, that's fine. That's a personal choice (I would buy an airplane to seat 15 friends but they'll not be paying the costs and 99.9999% of the time there will be only 3 aboard.) If you have 15 in your immediate family great! (I'm from Utah ... I understand that).

Why not take a different approach? Rather than drawing a box and attempting to put your "stuff" in the box, define all your objectives, meet those objectives, assign $$$ to those objectives, make your compromises and then draw a box around that. Forget about the bloody ratios (I've made many posts about this nonsense so I'm not going to repeat that here).

Wow Dennis.. you're a real buzzkill!!! But these are all real issues... I started working on a loose budget last night and was already at 20k without even thinking. My immediately family is 5 and I have had 15+ people watching sports/movies at my house many times, but you are right, I would be footing a huge bill for the 5% when 95% of the time seating for 8 and barstools at the back are good enough. I was planning on digging out that section of the basement to 12 ft but that is another additional cost with the added headache of a sump pump in that space. I am going with geothermal and would just add a zone for that room and maybe a simple system in the false walls for recirculating the air as well. I am dead set on the IB as I love the SQ as well as the effortless ability to dig really deep. I also think the false walls give me a lot of flexibility.

This is not the exact way I thought we would start off as I am planning on hiring you as soon as I get the floorplans finalized with the builder. However, I am really glad you are getting involved in my build so you know where I am heading and getting me to think about important issues up front. Reality is that I don't have an unlimited budget, but I will be able to offset a lot of costs as I can do almost all the work myself.

STILL SUPER EXCITED ABOUT THE THEATRE THOUGH...
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post #27 of 36 Old 01-24-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesquin View Post

Wow Dennis.. you're a real buzzkill!!!

That's the trouble with experts - they know what they're talking about... Soooo much better to hear all of this before you put loads of money in only to find out it's not going to work!

Quote:


But these are all real issues... I started working on a loose budget last night and was already at 20k without even thinking.

Good - you're got the first 20% of the budget done, then

Quote:


My immediately family is 5 and I have had 15+ people watching sports/movies at my house many times, but you are right, I would be footing a huge bill for the 5% when 95% of the time seating for 8 and barstools at the back are good enough.

Exactly where I was at in my initial thinking. I didn't want to build a small theater, either. In reality, the majority of time the theater has been used (inviting 20+ people), it's been about 8-10 folks. Super Bowl will be different, but yeah, exception rather than the rule.

And if you're expecting big crowds to show up for Illini football, um, well

But do think about your usage model when sizing, which you're doing. Family of 5 with friends + kids? "Adults" with kids in another room?

Quote:


This is not the exact way I thought we would start off as I am planning on hiring you as soon as I get the floorplans finalized with the builder.

Strongly recommend you speak with Dennis (or his team) personally *before* you finish the floorplan. Rough sketch with the limits is good, but get his expert input as to the final size (plus/minus a foot here or there), since you've got flexibility...

Jeff

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post #28 of 36 Old 01-24-2012, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

That's the trouble with experts - they know what they're talking about... Soooo much better to hear all of this before you put loads of money in only to find out it's not going to work!



Good - you're got the first 20% of the budget done, then



Exactly where I was at in my initial thinking. I didn't want to build a small theater, either. In reality, the majority of time the theater has been used (inviting 20+ people), it's been about 8-10 folks. Super Bowl will be different, but yeah, exception rather than the rule.

And if you're expecting big crowds to show up for Illini football, um, well

But do think about your usage model when sizing, which you're doing. Family of 5 with friends + kids? "Adults" with kids in another room?



Strongly recommend you speak with Dennis (or his team) personally *before* you finish the floorplan. Rough sketch with the limits is good, but get his expert input as to the final size (plus/minus a foot here or there), since you've got flexibility...

Jeff

Nobody likes to hear their ideas won't work, but it is a lot less expensive making mistakes now.

The floor plan I am referring to is the first floor plans which will dictate the plans of the basement where the theatre will be. Once the final house plans are completed I will hire Dennis. Do you think I should hire him before I finalize the house floor plans?
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post #29 of 36 Old 01-24-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
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Nobody likes to hear their ideas won't work, but it is a lot less expensive making mistakes now.

At the planning phase, at least in product design, we don't even call those mistakes... Those are just "early thinking". If there was no money spent, it doesn't even count!

Quote:


The floor plan I am referring to is the first floor plans which will dictate the plans of the basement where the theatre will be. Once the final house plans are completed I will hire Dennis. Do you think I should hire him before I finalize the house floor plans?

Yes. Things that you and I (or other non-pros) would assume make no difference or have impact he would likely catch instantly. And big things, like ceiling height, ductwork routing, etc. should absolutely be part of the "theater design" even though it's really part of "the house". Not saying he'll tell you to move the kitchen, though... (ok, he might, but you don't have to listen... )

By the way, as you get into the design - ask the builder about the cost of increasing the basement ceiling height generally. An extra foot or two may not be a huge deal depending on construction methods (I don't think you're going to hit any boulders in C-U...) and could make a tremendous impact when it comes time to finish it out.

Jeff

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post #30 of 36 Old 01-27-2012, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I am meeting with the builder on Monday to start going over goals and floor plans and the HT is definitely high on the list.

So far my research is lead me to the design below. I like it alot because I am an engineer at heart and the panels look cool, but are also very functional. I want to go with blue panels and black columns so far. I have a few tricks that I think with make it look nice.

I want to build the risers before the deck on that portion of the house is completed so I can fill them with sand a little easier. What if the sand is wet though? do you just leave it open for a while till it dries out? Do the risers need to be green treat? Also the rest of the basement will be 3' higher than the theatre floor grade. Is there any way to decouple the risers from the ledge? Just use foam board or leave an air gap?

All walls will be 2-3 layers of drywall with green glue. The ceiling and all walls will be decoupled from adjoining spaces. The common wall between the basement and the theatre will have two walls with an air gap. Maybe one wall will be filled with sand? All surfaces will have the acoustical panels and there will at least be bass traps in the corners. A larger bass trap should probably be investigated.

The biggest thing for me is determining the size and once I meet with the builder and start figuring out the house costs then I will hire Dennis to figure out the theatre layout.

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