Honest opinions on soundproofing options - Whisper Clips and hat channel worth it? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 73 Old 01-31-2012, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Steve*MH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I am at the framing stage and looking to complete the room in the near future. I have R19 in the walls and ceiling, but no sheet rock yet. I originally thought about MLV and sheetrock, but based on responses from this forum, I was leaning toward a double layer of sheetrock with green glue in between. The cost of green glue can be substantial, however, at 2 tubes per 4x8 sheet. I ran across some metal 7/8" furring channel at Menards for $3.50 per 12 foot section. I thought this was very reasonable and the cost would be minimal in adding these furring strips prior to sheetrocking. The Whisper clips would be some cost, but it seems pretty straightforward and tempting at this point. The main negative is the lost width of the room - 13' just framed and would lose 6" with the furring channel option. I could maybe live with that; however, the main questions are these: Is it "really" worth it? Other negatives with going the hat channel/clip route? I am considering ditching the greenglue between the double layer of sheetrock with this option to save money. It seems; if one had to chose, the hat channel/clip option provides better STC than simply double sheetrock with green glue. Perhaps I would do both, but thought if I had to pick one - the choice should be hat channel/clips. Seems like the price would be similar. I am worried about the hat channel/clips for the ceiling - seems much more complicated than the walls.
The other aspect is I am planning a fiber optic star ceiling and to accomplish this (since there is no access from above) - I may explore using the hat channel in this section and allow room for the fiber strands to be run across the sheetrock/acoustic panel. Any thoughts on this as well - having a fiber optic ceiling and addressing soundproofing at the same time?
I guess at the end of the day, and in an effort to be reasonable and economical, is the hat channel and whisper clip option worth the effort and cost? Is it truly the best option for soundproofing a home theater? Just looking for some final input before going any further. Ted, other experts, or anyone with actual experience with these options - please feel free to respond.
Thanks for any input in advance.
Steve*MH is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 05:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tlogan6797's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
You haven't really said what your goal is....to limit sound getting out or to improve acoustics inside the room? Is the room open or truly dedicated? You say you are already framed so that makes me think you did not use something like the DC04 clips on the stud walls. Using those clips you lose no additional room width beyond whatever drywall you use.

Anyway in answer to your question, I have an open room. The theater area is about 12'6" by 17'. I used DC04 on ALL walls, clips and hat channel on ALL ceilings and DD+GG throughout.

Even though I'm not finished yet, I'm glad I did. This makes the room as good as it can possibly be. You can't go back and add clips after drywall. Well, you can but you won't like doing it.

You need to set your expectations and let know us what they are, then you may get better answers.

Tom Logan
Everytime I reply the thread ends
Need motivation? Get LOGANED
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014847

An as-yet un-named theater designed by Big-WarrenP-BritInVA
tlogan6797 is offline  
post #3 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 05:36 AM
Advanced Member
 
Dixon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
There are a number of threads where people discuss the pros and cons of trying to soundproof a room. This one might be helpful to you:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1298384

Keep in mind that that the goal (for most of us) is to only build this room once. This is likely your only chance to "get it right". I think the benefits of reasonable soundproofing are significant (both in terms of keeping sound in, and keeping sound out).

We all have to work within our personal budgets. If it isn't too much of a stretch to do both decoupling and dampening, I would advise it. I'd suggest you also talk to Ted White about your HVAC situation, just to understand how it may impact your results.
Dixon is offline  
post #4 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 06:39 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Dennis Erskine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Near an airport
Posts: 9,141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 46
"...honest opinions...."

Sorry, I had to laugh at that. All opinions are honest. The opinions may not be based upon fact, true understanding, or reality but they are honestly held.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
Architectural Acoustics
Subject Matter Expert
Certified Home Theater Designer
CEDIA Board of Directors
www.erskine-group.com
www.CinemaForte.net
Dennis Erskine is offline  
post #5 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 06:54 AM
HOME THEATER CONTRACTOR
 
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 20,720
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 581
I've used whisper clips, Hat channel, and Green Glue. IMHO they work. It is a shame you didn't use isolation clips for your walls, depending on the location and design you could have skipped the clips and channel.
BIGmouthinDC is offline  
post #6 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 11:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
It's good you're just starting and asking questions before you get too much further along. If the framed wall is 1" from the foundation, then it's decoupled. No clips and channel needed for sound isolating.

Non-foundation walls can be double stud or single stud + clips & channels.

Ceilings are most commonly decoupled with clips and channels, as inserting new ceiling framing isn't always practical.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #7 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 11:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tlogan6797's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:


If the framed wall is 1" from the foundation, then it's decoupled.

Even if it's attached directly to the joists above?

Tom Logan
Everytime I reply the thread ends
Need motivation? Get LOGANED
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014847

An as-yet un-named theater designed by Big-WarrenP-BritInVA
tlogan6797 is offline  
post #8 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 11:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Yes, decoupled in the acoustical sense. The wall is connected to the joists but considered decoupled from that foundation.

Litmus test: If the two leaves can move independent of one another, they are decoupled.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #9 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 11:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tlogan6797's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Devils' advocate here.....

But if the joists are connected to the foundation is it still decoupled?

Tom Logan
Everytime I reply the thread ends
Need motivation? Get LOGANED
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014847

An as-yet un-named theater designed by Big-WarrenP-BritInVA
tlogan6797 is offline  
post #10 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 11:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kromkamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 4,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Its decoupled in the same sense that a staggered stud wall is "decoupled" - decoupled except at the end points (top and bottom) is better than no decoupling at all. Decoupling from joists using DC04 is better still. Decoupling by running new joists is best.

You still aren't completely decoupled - you're coupled to the floor.

I think Ted has some information or references on his site in terms of Good/Better/Best recommendations.

Ted, wouldn't you say that the added mass of double drywall (even without green glue but particularly with) is more of a net benefit than decoupling? I know its not strictly apples to apples but if someone had a budget and/or only wanted to give up an extra inch, I'd say that would be the better way to go.

I've built two rooms now - both with DD/GG but the second one with decoupling also, and certainly the first one performed pretty darned good even without decoupling. Truth be told, the weak point in both rooms is/was the door.

Which reminds me - I gotta get around to installing my 2nd communicating door soon....
kromkamp is offline  
post #11 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 12:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post

Devils' advocate here.....

But if the joists are connected to the foundation is it still decoupled?

Yes.

Andy, I would opt for double 5/8" drywall + GG if I could have 24" OC framing. The 24" spacing gives a bit of flex that you're missing without clips & channel.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #12 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 12:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kromkamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 4,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 25
But with 16" OC spacing you would rather have single layer drywall + clips instead of double drywall and GG?
kromkamp is offline  
post #13 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 01:04 PM
Senior Member
 
uscmatt99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Yes in my opinion it was worth it. I went with 3 foundation decoupled walls, one double stud wall, and floating ceiling joists, in the basement. It keeps all the outside noise out, and nearly keeps inside noise from escaping with the exception of very low frequency energy which it at least tames significantly. Like kromkamp, I find the door to be the weak point as well. Even with the automatic bottom and sealing, plain solid core doors are a little lacking.

When I listen at around -6dB, the loudest scenes can be faintly heard in the adjacent room in the basement, and bass can be heard/felt there and felt on the main level above. Nothing can be heard in the upper level where we sleep.
uscmatt99 is offline  
post #14 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Steve*MH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

But with 16" OC spacing you would rather have single layer drywall + clips instead of double drywall and GG?

Thanks for the replies. To clarify; my room is enclosed and I am looking for soundprooding. It has the concrete foundation on two walls and interior for the other two. It was interesting to hear Ted's response regarding the foundation walls already being decoupled. So the foundation walls would not need clips and hat channel? Simply DD and GG? The other could be clips and channel? I have 16 oc; is DD and GG "as good" as hat channel and clips and single drywall? How about hat channel, clips, and DD without the GG? Thanks.
Steve*MH is offline  
post #15 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 02:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
If the framed wall is 1" or so from the foundation wall, I would not recommend clips and channels. Simply R13 and double drywall, damped.

The other two walls could have a second wall built in front of the old. This presumes there's no drywall on the "old" walls. Or decouple with clips and channels, also with no drywall on the old wall framing.

Regarding which is better, mass vs. decoupling vs damping... they all perform different yet needed roles. Which prevents tooth decay best: toothbrush, toothpaste or floss?

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #16 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 04:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Elill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Ted - I'd say decoupling is the most important though?

....if only becuase you cant change it later.....easily.

I've just helped a mate do a room with clips and channel and I got to say I am extremely impressed. Also helps keep the wall resonance the same/similar = acoustic benefit

Peter the Greek

Downunder Theatre MkII
Redefining snail pace construction
"what is worth knowing is difficult to learn"

Elill is online now  
post #17 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 05:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

Ted - I'd say decoupling is the most important

....if only becuase you cant change it later.....easily.

Best answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

I've just helped a mate do a room with clips and channel and I got to say I am extremely impressed. Also helps keep the wall resonance the same/similar = acoustic benefit

This is the equal impedance that Dennis advocates.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #18 of 73 Old 02-01-2012, 05:13 PM
Member
 
bzbase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 80
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Best answer.



This is the equal impedance that Dennis advocates.

Does room within a room also have equal impedance?
bzbase is offline  
post #19 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 05:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Equal Impedance comes about if the walls / ceiling are the same material, damped the same, and decoupled similarly. So for example, if the walls and ceiling were hung on clip & channel, double 5/8" drywall and damped, all surfaces would respond very similarly to a sound wave. This similar response allows for the easiest / best final calibration of the room.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #20 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 06:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kromkamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 4,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

If the framed wall is 1" or so from the foundation wall, I would not recommend clips and channels. Simply R13 and double drywall, damped.

The other two walls could have a second wall built in front of the old.

Or run a 2nd set of studs staggered .75" using the same base/top plates with a 1x2 across the face of the plates.

Quote:


Regarding which is better, mass vs. decoupling vs damping... they all perform different yet needed roles. Which prevents tooth decay best: toothbrush, toothpaste or floss?

That's easy - the toothbrush! Floss is silly and you already get fluoride from the tap water
kromkamp is offline  
post #21 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 06:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
I have grown to not be such a fan of staggered studs. Better than single stud walls, but I personally wouldn't build one. Double stud or clip & channel for me.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #22 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 07:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kromkamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 4,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Interesting! Care to elaborate?

Personally, I'm not a big fan of clips and channel on the walls because it makes it a bit wonky to hang anything on the wall with the gap between the drywall and the studs behind (and in fact this is a decoupling short circuit to do so) Electrical outlets and door mouldings get a little more difficult to do. Also, the wall flexes when you lean on it

Cheers
kromkamp is offline  
post #23 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 07:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
If using clips on a wall it's handy to use a first layer of ply that runs down and rests firmly on the floor. This lends stablity to the wall in the event that things need to be hung on the wall.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #24 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 09:57 AM
235
Senior Member
 
235's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 482
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

I have grown to not be such a fan of staggered studs. Better than single stud walls, but I personally wouldn't build one. Double stud or clip & channel for me.

Just wondering why you now avoid staggered stud walls? I'm basing my current plans (staggered stud on 2x8 plates) partly because of this data from the following thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=452667&page=4

STAGGERED STUD:

one layer each side: 35. dBA / 38.5 EqLoud
one / two layers: 38.5 dBA / 43.5 EqLoud
two layers each side: 41 dBA / 47 EqLoud

it is worth mentioning that although staggered studs don't necessarily (or hardly ever) yield HF performance spuerioer to RC, what datas i have show better LF performance (Deeper air cavity being a big factor). And the staggered walls rank higher.

RESILIENT CHANNEL: averages of dozens of data points for each possibility:

one layer each side: 33. dBA / 35 EqLoud
one / two layers: 36 dBA / 40 EqLoud
two layers each side: 38.5 dBA / 43 EqLoud

So resilient channel (despite the factual reality that it worsens performance <100hz or so) if properly installed could be expected to give some performance gains... about 5dB, perhaps. The reasnos being vastly superior midbass and up performance (assuming it's properly installed).

This data shows staggered being preferred over resilient channel in large part because of the deeper cavity. Is there any data comparing staggered walls with isolation clips?
235 is offline  
post #25 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 10:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Almost any decoupling strategy is superior to Resilient Channel. You would not use clips on a staggered wall. You would use them on a single stud wall or joist system.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #26 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 10:20 AM
235
Senior Member
 
235's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 482
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Almost any decoupling strategy is superior to Resilient Channel. You would not use clips on a staggered wall. You would use them on a single stud wall or joist system.

Oops, I meant 'comparing staggered walls to non-staggered walls with isolation clips'.
235 is offline  
post #27 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 10:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Staggered stud walls are problematic. Insulation needs care to be installed without compressing and that's not straightforward with staggered studs. Steel studs don't work well so you're stuck with wood. Rigid conduction via the top and bottom plates. Conduction at the door framing when you re-couple the wall to install the door.

Just a few reasons I prefer a double stud or clip & channel frame to decouple.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #28 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 10:54 AM
Member
 
bluedevilbrent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 79
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

The other two walls could have a second wall built in front of the old. This presumes there's no drywall on the "old" walls. Or decouple with clips and channels, also with no drywall on the old wall framing.

If I were going to build a new wall in front of another wall and the old wall already has drywall on it, wouldn't it be better to leave the drywall on the old wall and just build the new wall in front of the old drywalled wall? Wouldn't leaving the old drywall up add another layer (mass) to the entire wall? I can't wrap my fingers around why it would be better to take the old drywall down first.
bluedevilbrent is offline  
post #29 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 11:10 AM
HOME THEATER CONTRACTOR
 
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 20,720
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 581
Read about triple leaf assemblies on Ted's site, They can actually make things worse. A triple leaf would be drywall on both sides of a framed wall an air space then studs and drywall. As in building a wall in front of a completed interior wall.
BIGmouthinDC is offline  
post #30 of 73 Old 02-02-2012, 11:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Reasonable question. You can read up on some of the details if you like: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...e-leaf-effect/

Essentially we only want one big, fat air cavity. Two air cavities causes great problems, not the least of which is any significant improvement over what you may have already. Mass is great if deployed in the right locations. Mass is bad if it's defining a small second air cavity.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

Tags
Hat Channel

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off