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post #151 of 179 Old 02-11-2012, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Full day of tests complete and I can't thank my wife and kids enough for helping me out. Here's what we did all day.

1.Covered all ventilation upstairs and downstairs in the HT Room.
Nothing changed

Onto step 2...did not remove the traps/vents covered...

2.Covered the HT door inside and out...inside screwed a 1/2 inch OSB top to bottom with insulation in between the door and the OSB.
On the other side of the door (Outside the HT room) wife was pushing a mattress against the door. We had to raise our voice to hear each other. So this had an effect BUT - Music from upstairs came in loud and clear

3.I completely blocked the stairway going down to my basement.
This made the BIGGEST difference in that the sounds coming from the kitchen was almost all gone. It was hard to hear my wife saying hello and making noise with the dishes...I can still hear them but alot less. The music upsatirs was coming in loud and clear

4.The glass test...much to my surprise this test was an awesome experience for me...you know COOL! anyways...I practically stuck that glass everywhere.
I tried all walls ceilings soffit, door, dorr frame, etc...The music upstairs is playing in the right corner when facing the front screen wall. It was the loudest on the front right side wall. It was also very loud and clear on the door frame. The further I got away from the source area wall the sound diminished. It was also loud on the soffit too near the source. I was surprised how loud it was on the door frame!!!

All this and every time I can hear the music playing upstairs very well. Also during all the testing my son would move a chair in the dining room and am completely shocked how loud that noise is. This is just sliding the chair in and out.

So what do I take out of all this?
LEt me be blunt...
I'm completely discouraged That everything I have tried had almost NO EFFECT of the soundproofing.
Something is major wrong..it seems impossible to me that so much sound is coming in my room with so little effort. There's got to be something with the way this house is built to have sounds problems like this. I have absolutely no idea why or how but I can for sure say there's something wrong.

I know there's 6 major surface ares in my room (4 walls, 1 ceiling and 1 floor)
The ONLY surface I haven't done anything with is the floor. Maybe all my sound is coming through the floor? I don't know...

So for now I'm so sorry gang but I give up!
I need to continue my build process and am now praying that after I'm done that it somehow improves dramatically my soundproofing. I'm gonna have a rock'n'roll supper now and then put down my 3rd layer of OSB on the stage and riser and continue my build.
The biggest difference now is I will make sure the music is playing INSIDE my HT room while I'm doing my work so that I won't hear what's happening g upstairs as I don't want to hear what is being said upstairs.

thank you all for listening and all your help/tips/kind words/advice/experience...I cannot thank you guys enough...I have learned so much reading here.

If you ever pass by the greater Montreal area and would like to witness this strange phenomenon, please drop by!

Sincerest regards,

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #152 of 179 Old 02-11-2012, 03:44 PM
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I am in the process of designing, so I've been watching your thread closely. I think I am going to have similar issues as you. I was standing in the unfinished theater space today and had the stereo going on upstairs -- main floor is all hardwoods btw -- the music was coming in loud and clear, and I am 95% sure it's coming in through the floor.

I am going to do DD/GG on all the theater walls (all decoupled), with clips/channel/DD/GG on the ceiling as well. I think it would be wishful thinking on my part to think that all that sound transmission will be blocked even if every single hole is plugged. I will be pleasantly surprised if it is. Sound, as I've discovered through this forum, is a fickle mistress.

I wouldn't say that all your efforts have been wasted -- think how bad it would be if you just did single drywall! And think how often you will really have the stereo blasting upstairs at the same time you are watching a movie. If you and your wife are in the theater at the same time, the times you will hear foot traffic from above will also be limited. So try not to stress too much!! It seems like you have a great space, so just enjoy it!.
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post #153 of 179 Old 02-11-2012, 05:03 PM
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Also be thankful that at least it's keeping the sound in well! To me that's the main reason to soundproof anyways.

I'm usually in Montreal at least once a year and since I've built two rooms with green glue now I'm pretty familiar with what can be expected so if you like I'll drop you a line when I make it over there.
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post #154 of 179 Old 02-11-2012, 05:08 PM
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The fact that you can hear sounds coming in but not getting out suggests to me that the live room is amplifying the sound that is getting in. I suspect once you get carpet, acoustic treatments, chairs etc in it is going to get a lot quieter.
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post #155 of 179 Old 02-12-2012, 04:35 AM
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Sound isolation is not just clips/channel/green glue, stout doors, and seals. You have to add a profuse amount of "anal" to the process. A 1/2" dia. hole or a 1/8" gap 6" long can almost totally defeat an otherwise perfect job.

I wouldn't even pretend to tell you where the problems are without seeing for myself. Some of the things you're planning to do are steps in the right direction. Completely sealing off the area for the equipment rack, beefing up the door, etc. Here's a couple of other things:

1. See the gap between the drywall and the floor ... seriously caulk that gap with something like OSI Sound Sealant;
2. The automagic door sweep is a start; but, you really need a threshold to seal along the side and better seal the bottom;
3. If you have any electrical outlets penetrating your drywall, ditch 'em, seal the holes.
4. Where you have any wires (electrical, low voltage) penetrating the drywall, seal any gaps between the wire and the hole.
5. Take a deep breath...carry on.

Here's also another point to consider in this process. Don't for a minute think what you've done so far is not doing anything. It actually is doing a lot. There is NOT more sound entering the room than leaving. I know PQ does things differently but upon careful examination, the province hasn't outlawed or changed the laws of physics!

So why are kitchen noises so loud in the room and theater noises so muted in the kitchen? A rather simple explanation. Your sound isolation efforts have reduced the noise floor in the theater to the extent that sounds that would be masked behind the noise floor are now evident. Let me ask you this...can you hear your heart beat? In an exceptionally quiet room, you'll hear it to the point of annoyance.

Go back and listen to your own video. You hear the upstairs noise, you walk into your room, close the door and then tell us you can hear the *$%# noise from the kitchen. Not on the video you can't (at least with your voice at normal speech levels). Without an accurate SPL meter, you cannot see the reduction in noise floor. Your brain is convincing you the voices from the kitchen are really loud (this type of brain foolery is a symptom of audiophilia ... LOL). The only thing loud in that room on the video is you speaking.

Vous pouvez maintenant terminer la construction de la salle.

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post #156 of 179 Old 02-12-2012, 07:49 AM
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Quote:


suggests to me that the live room is amplifying the sound that is getting in.

Not without a source of energy!

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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post #157 of 179 Old 02-12-2012, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

I'm usually in Montreal at least once a year and since I've built two rooms with green glue now I'm pretty familiar with what can be expected so if you like I'll drop you a line when I make it over there.

I'd be more than happy if you would drop by...maybe I'm expecting way too much!!!
Please let me know so I can fill the fridge with whatever you like...thanks so much for the offer.

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post #158 of 179 Old 02-12-2012, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 View Post

The fact that you can hear sounds coming in but not getting out suggests to me that the live room is amplifying the sound that is getting in. I suspect once you get carpet, acoustic treatments, chairs etc in it is going to get a lot quieter.

I am hoping that things get better as the process moves along.
I am also hoping that the further I get through the beter it gets...I still have wires coming through the soffit (for speakers and sconces) that once are more closed up that it improves.

What's amazing is how quiet it is in the room when I close the door.

stockmonkey2000,
I just looked at your build thread and am totally impressed. God dam you're doing beautiful work...I'm so impressed!
Great job man...

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4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
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post #159 of 179 Old 02-12-2012, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Sound isolation is not just clips/channel/green glue, stout doors, and seals. You have to add a profuse amount of "anal" to the process. A 1/2" dia. hole or a 1/8" gap 6" long can almost totally defeat an otherwise perfect job.

1st of all...I am honored you took the time to reply to my thread...thank you!
I know you know your $%^& and that you're a professional an I appreciate your feedback...I have learned alot from this place...
I am trying my best here to do the perfect job and also know that it's far from it...I pat myself in the back for even trying such an experiment. I have read threads for over a year and have followed instructions and watched countless video's on how to...and think I did a pretty good job for an amateur.

I'm soo anal that I want no help from friends cause I'm too scared they do something wrong...I could only blame myself for any mistakes!

Quote:


I wouldn't even pretend to tell you where the problems are without seeing for myself. Some of the things you're planning to do are steps in the right direction. Completely sealing off the area for the equipment rack, beefing up the door, etc.

I will do those things and whatever else I can find.
I might rip out the door and see if something is wrong there.
To much sound is coming from the door. I will take pictures and ask Ted's advice!

Quote:


Here's a couple of other things:

1. See the gap between the drywall and the floor ... seriously caulk that gap with something like OSI Sound Sealant;
Never heard of this but I have already caulked all my floor including after the 1st layer of DW was up

2. The automagic door sweep is a start; but, you really need a threshold to seal along the side and better seal the bottom;
I am planing to put a 2x4 at the bottom of the door entrance and putting a rubber gasket so once the door closes, it will be air tight!

3. If you have any electrical outlets penetrating your drywall, ditch 'em, seal the holes.
I only have 2 light switch boxes near the door frame. They are both completely taped up using vinyl mastic tape on the back and side of the box and put acoustical caulking all around the box, after the 1st layer of DW and also after the 2nd layer of DW...I did my best there to completely seal it.

4. Where you have any wires (electrical, low voltage) penetrating the drywall, seal any gaps between the wire and the hole.
I put acoustical caulking after the 1st layer and 2nd layer of drywall
5. Take a deep breath...carry on.
I will...thanks...yesterday I finished the stage and riser and today had the whole family over to celebrate my sons 18th birthday!!!

Quote:


Here's also another point to consider in this process. Don't for a minute think what you've done so far is not doing anything. It actually is doing a lot. There is NOT more sound entering the room than leaving. I know PQ does things differently but upon careful examination, the province hasn't outlawed or changed the laws of physics!

LOL...

Quote:


So why are kitchen noises so loud in the room and theater noises so muted in the kitchen? A rather simple explanation. Your sound isolation efforts have reduced the noise floor in the theater to the extent that sounds that would be masked behind the noise floor are now evident. Let me ask you this...can you hear your heart beat? In an exceptionally quiet room, you'll hear it to the point of annoyance.

That's also my believe... I think the room is so quiet that's the reason why I hear everything else around.
Can I hear my heartbeat? no I can't but what I hear is alot of like white noise sound when I walk in there. Like the noise you hear after coming out of a concert.
My ears are very sensitive...I have been sleeping with ear plugs for over 15 years now cause I can hear an ant crossing the road while I'm sleeping.

Quote:


Go back and listen to your own video.

No thanks. I almost threw up the 1st time I heard it!

Quote:


You hear the upstairs noise, you walk into your room, close the door and then tell us you can hear the *$%# noise from the kitchen. Not on the video you can't (at least with your voice at normal speech levels). Without an accurate SPL meter, you cannot see the reduction in noise floor. Your brain is convincing you the voices from the kitchen are really loud (this type of brain foolery is a symptom of audiophilia ... LOL). The only thing loud in that room on the video is you speaking.

Every video you see was filmed when nobody was in the house! How could you hear noise fin my video if nobody but me is in the house? that's why you don't hear any kitchen noises when you are listening to the video.
My family has no idea about the video's nor do they have any idea about this site! They already think I psycho with all this!!!

Also...
I never said it wasn't quiet in the room..it is super quiet and am very happy with that. I did however say that IMO there's way too much noise coming inside...from reading the hundreds of posts here, I am certain that its not normal the amount of sound coming into the room. There are numerous posts (one including in this thread) that are saying it's almost dead silence in their room and they don't even have a door installed!! If that;s the case then I must have 100's of 1/8" holes in my room.

Quote:


Vous pouvez maintenant terminer la construction de la salle.

I'm not sure what this means...it seems to be a foreign language of some sorts


Kind regards,

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #160 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I'm not sure what this means...it seems to be a foreign language of some sorts

French. Roughly translated, means you can finish the room now.
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post #161 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 08:52 AM
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Have a look where Fatshaft lives Although, I know more than one "Anglo" in Montreal that speaks not a lick of French!
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post #162 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys...I should've put this instead of
I was just kidding...


I took the door out and am redoing all the caulking around the door frame.
Any last word of advice before I put the door back in?

I thought this time I would put acoustical caulking inside and out.

Thanks

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4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #163 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 10:19 AM
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Ted can jump in with more detail, but I seem to remember one of the Soundproofing Companies documents recommending that you leave a 1/8" gap between the drywall and door frame and then fill the gap with acoustic caulk. I didn't have a chance to look back through your thread, but if I remember correctly (maybe not) you didn't use clips to decouple the tops of the walls. If this is the case, then the door frame may be coupled to the joist above. If the drywall is in contact with the frame (even if hat channel was used on the walls), it would then become coupled - possibly even amplifying the sound?

Again, I'm not an expert. Just taking a stab in the dark. My assumptions may be completely wrong, but I thought I would throw it out there just in case.

Nick
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post #164 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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NGiovas,

thanks for replying...
My ceiling is decouples and the top of the door frame is not touching the 2x4 frame. Only the sides are touching with the screws I used to hold it in place.

also, I have a 1/4" gap all around the door frame and the DDW. I had filled it all with acoustical caulking.
the only difference this time is that I will also fill this gap on the outside portion of the door frame and the DW on the other side. I would imagine this to be a even better solution.

Thanks

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4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #165 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 11:36 AM
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Fats,

I've got to agree with Nick that the problem with the door very possibly could be that the wall framing itself is not decoupled from the floor joist above. If you attach the door frame to the wall frame in any way, the door frame very well may be amplifying the sounds coming down through the floor. I don't know a good solution because it will be very difficult to hang the door without it touching the wall framing.

I'm kind of thinking that you actually have the same problem on all of the walls you built against your foundations. While they are decoupled from the foundation, they are not decoupled from the floor joists if you did not use RISC clips to attach the wall frame top plate to the floor joist. All of the sounds from the floor above come straight down the wall framing and the only two sound isolation properties that are working for you are the mass of the drywall and the dampening of the greenglue but you are lacking any decoupling or absorption. Not any easy fix that I can think of. May some of the experts can chime in here...?????

Sorry about your experience. It sucks to put that much research, time and effort into a project only to be disappointed.
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post #166 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 11:46 AM
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This is a very interesting point. How does one decouple the door frame if it's not in a decoupled wall? Are there some kind of floating couplings similar to IB-3 clips that can be used?
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post #167 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

The lack of IB3s isn't the problem.

I don't think that is the major problem here.

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post #168 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Ted also thought the door might be acting like a speaker...You guys are right that my 4 walls are attached directly to the joists above.
I think I'm screwed

As I have already said...I regret not having used IB3 clips to decouple my walls.
The thing is Ted wrote that he did not think that's the problem.

I'm not going to argue what Ted thinks!
But if that's the problem it is too late for me. there's no way I can add IB3 clips now.

Regards,

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post #169 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 12:12 PM
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There are five principles that can reduce the level of sound. They are 1-"Distance" (i.e., you probably can't hear a rock concert that is 10 miles away). 2-"Dampening" (i.e., put your finger on the vibrating string of a guitar). 3-"Absorption" (i.e., add carpet over a hardwood floor). 4-"Mass" (i.e., two layers of 5/8" drywall). 5-"Decoupling" (i.e., cut the taunt string between two tin cans and sound won't travel between the two cans). In a residential setting, distance becomes impossible, so it is irrelevant and you are left with the remaining 4 principles to work with.

Generally you need to get 3 of the 4 principles nearly perfect and have at least some of the 4th in order to be happy with your soundproofing efforts. It appears that you did an excellent job of addressing mass (double 5/8" drywall) and dampening (greenglue). On the one wall and the ceiling you also did an excellent job of decoupling (whisper clips and hat channel). However on the remaining three walls and the door frame, you don't have at least 3 of the 4 principles working for you with regard to sound that is being carried through the structure of your home.

I'm not meaning to rub salt into your wounds. Just trying to help anyone reading this thread to avoid similar results.
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post #170 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
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However on the remaining three walls and the door frame, you don't have at least 3 of the 4 principles working for you with regard to sound that is being carried through the structure of your home.

This is not correct

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post #171 of 179 Old 02-13-2012, 01:45 PM
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Ted, is there anything Fatshaft could have done for the walls without ripping down the walls and starting from scratch? How do you decouple existing walls from the upstairs joists? I've never seen this done in any of the other builds. All the builds I've seen have the walls constructed with standard construction procedures where the framing is somehow attached to the joists above.

edit: just realized you said that is NOT correct. So not sure if this question makes sense.
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post #172 of 179 Old 02-16-2012, 05:21 PM
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So is it possible that DD+GG and clips does a better job at keeping noise from leaving the room and not so much with noise entering the room?

I guess it could make sense. The DD+GG is the first list of defense with noise leaving the room, whereas with noise entering the room it's already at the room and the DD+GG is the last line of defense.

Does it make sense from a scientific standpoint? Have any tests been done where you have a DD+GG wall on one side of the room and single DW on the the other side - and then compare? I'd like to see db tests in each room with the same amount of noise coming from the adjoining room.
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post #173 of 179 Old 02-16-2012, 05:36 PM
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Before an urban legend forms let me say this is not what's happening.

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post #174 of 179 Old 02-16-2012, 08:36 PM
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haha ok
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post #175 of 179 Old 02-16-2012, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Before an urban legend forms let me say this is not what's happening.

(I was going to replace the product name from the skit with "Green Glue", but I don't want it to show up in Google results and be part of the problem! )


Warning: Pregnant women, the elderly, and children under 10 should avoid prolonged exposure to Happy Fun Ball.

Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.

Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, which, if exposed due to rupture, should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.

Discontinue use of Happy Fun Ball if any of the following occurs:

itching
vertigo
dizziness
tingling in extremities
loss of balance or coordination
slurred speech
temporary blindness
profuse sweating
or heart palpitations.

If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.

Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types of skin.

When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be returned to its special container and kept under refrigeration. Failure to do so relieves the makers of Happy Fun Ball, Wacky Products Incorporated, and its parent company, Global Chemical Unlimited, of any and all liability.

Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an unknown glowing green substance which fell to Earth, presumably from outer space.

Happy Fun Ball has been shipped to our troops in Saudi Arabia and is being dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.

Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Happy Fun Ball comes with a lifetime warranty.

EDIT: HA! I forgot about the "green substance" bit - even bettter!

Rock Creek Theater -- CIH, Panamorph, Martin Logan, SVS PB2000, Carada Masquerade, Grafik Eye, Bar table, Green Glue, JVC RS50 
Theater build photos: http://photobucket.com/autor-ht
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post #176 of 179 Old 02-17-2012, 08:37 AM
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post #177 of 179 Old 02-18-2012, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randy98mtu View Post

This is a very interesting point. How does one decouple the door frame if it's not in a decoupled wall? Are there some kind of floating couplings similar to IB-3 clips that can be used?

I have been thinking about trying to use IB-3s or something else to do this very thing. With the clips at the top of a wall, they aren't subject to much force, but I am concerned about the shear load of a 175+lb door on the hinge side, even when using "enough" clips per their design load.

Fatshaft, I feel for you, man! The sound levels you hear coming from the door frame on your glass test... can you tell me more about what your heard? Was it coming from the jamb itself, or the framing around the jamb. More at the top.. sides..? I know the door itself is very important, but I am scared my own project may run into something similar regarding the frame!

I'd also be very interested in any ideas around decoupling or soundproofing a door set in an existing load bearing wall. (without building a second wall) I am in the middle of renovating my basement which will include not one.... but two doors in a wall that I don't have the resources to modify. I do have a profuse amount of anal at my disposal though. I am giving my best toward a budget soundproofing job that will include decoupling all walls and ceiling, leaving me to figure out the two doors that I will be rebuilding.
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post #178 of 179 Old 02-18-2012, 08:47 PM
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I suppose I should also say Hi to all... I have been trolling AVS for a number of years on occasion, and only finally decided to become a member so I could see build pics as I begin my own project! This forum is filled with amazing resources and some pretty darn talented and helpful people.

It has also gotten me in trouble with the missus. She swears I must be looking at porn or something, "what else could you be doing in there for hours at a time?"
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post #179 of 179 Old 02-19-2012, 07:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillink View Post

I suppose I should also say Hi to all... I have been trolling AVS for a number of years on occasion, and only finally decided to become a member so I could see build pics as I begin my own project! This forum is filled with amazing resources and some pretty darn talented and helpful people.

It has also gotten me in trouble with the missus. She swears I must be looking at porn or something, "what else could you be doing in there for hours at a time?"

Tell her you have been, then show her the completed builds and say things like "look at that beauty" and "oh man, that is hot looking".

I suppose it is like looking at cars, women just don't get it.
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