Polk Audio LSi Series Home Theater Project - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 03-21-2012, 12:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Just purchased my first home and we are going to build a home theater. Here's the deal I get the Media Room and she gets the rest of the house. I am new to this and want to get it right the first time. My thought is to turn an existing bedroom/office into the Home Theater. Would like to sound proof the room and get the best sound, could use some advice on the best results for the least expense.

Dimensions of the room: 9'9"x13'x7'

This is a corner room in the basement.
One Door that I plan to move to inward facing 13' wall
One Small Window on 9'9" wall
Plan is to build a tier for stagecoach viewing along 9'9" wall with window

Samsung 64inch Plasma pn64d8000
Onkyo tx-nr809 (4ohm rated w/ 135 watts @ 8ohm)
LSi9 Ebony, LSic, LSiFX, DSWpro66wi
Raxxess Economy Speaker Stand 36" tall 12" top plate
12 awg CM rated speaker wire SEWELL
SEWELL Silverback Banana Plugs
SEWELL Premium HDMI cables
PS3 fatty, Xbox 360, Wii, CPU
Still need an equipment rack and maybe a dedicated Blu-ray.

I plan on wall mounting the Plasma, LSiFX, and LSiC. Running all the cabling in-wall.

Will be Bi-amping the LSi9 Left and Right since they are so power hungry.

Should I position the LSiFX behind the listener or to the sides and why?

What is the most cost effective way to effectively sound proof this room?

My thoughts are to use Rockwool insulation with the middle of the line Quietrock (60/sheet), or a two layers 5/8 basement drywall Green Glue Sandwich. As small as the room is I think that saving a few inches and some time with Quietrock might be the way to go even if it is a few dollas more.

Is this overkill or not enough?

How do I sound proof a door though?

As sound proof doors are waaaay too much.

It seems useless to do all this sound deading just to have all that power bleed out though the door and window.

I believe that I can use an interior window insert to deaden the window.

Does that work?

If this thread takes off I will upload photos of the remodel from beginning to end.

Thanks
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post #2 of 21 Old 03-21-2012, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Dolla Wells View Post

Just purchased my first home and we are going to build a home theater. Here's the deal I get the Media Room and she gets the rest of the house. I am new to this and want to get it right the first time. My thought is to turn an existing bedroom/office into the Home Theater. Would like to sound proof the room and get the best sound, could use some advice on the best results for the least expense.

Dimensions of the room: 9'9"x13'x7'

This is a corner room in the basement.
One Door that I plan to move to inward facing 13' wall
One Small Window on 9'9" wall
Plan is to build a tier for stagecoach viewing along 9'9" wall with window

Samsung 64inch Plasma pn64d8000
Onkyo tx-nr809 (4ohm rated w/ 135 watts @ 8ohm)
LSi9 Ebony, LSic, LSiFX, DSWpro66wi
Raxxess Economy Speaker Stand 36" tall 12" top plate
12 awg CM rated speaker wire SEWELL
SEWELL Silverback Banana Plugs
SEWELL Premium HDMI cables
PS3 fatty, Xbox 360, Wii, CPU
Still need an equipment rack and maybe a dedicated Blu-ray.

I plan on wall mounting the Plasma, LSiFX, and LSiC. Running all the cabling in-wall.

Will be Bi-amping the LSi9 Left and Right since they are so power hungry.

Should I position the LSiFX behind the listener or to the sides and why?

What is the most cost effective way to effectively sound proof this room?

My thoughts are to use Rockwool insulation with the middle of the line Quietrock (60/sheet), or a two layers 5/8 basement drywall Green Glue Sandwich. As small as the room is I think that saving a few inches and some time with Quietrock might be the way to go even if it is a few dollas more.

Is this overkill or not enough?

How do I sound proof a door though?

As sound proof doors are waaaay too much.

It seems useless to do all this sound deading just to have all that power bleed out though the door and window.

I believe that I can use an interior window insert to deaden the window.

Does that work?

If this thread takes off I will upload photos of the remodel from beginning to end.

Thanks

As far as the sound proofing and acoustical treatments go, I would consult Brian Pape of GIK Acoustics or use the theater design service at AVS which is provided by Dennis Erskine. From what I've read, it's the best $700 you can spend.
As for bi-wiring or bi-amping your speakers, you get little if any benefit from it (check out this article:http://www.audioholics.com/education...ng-vs-biwiring). Especially if you are only using a receiver to power them. It may be rated at 135 watts, but I can gaurantee you that it doesn't come close to that. My advice would be to get a separate power amp. I believe you are right about the Polk's being power hungry. A receiver will provide you with what you need but a separate power amp will provide you with a huge difference and vastly improved sound. Emotiva makes a 3 channel amp for your front 3 which will get 200 watts per channel and it runs around $699 I believe. Your receiver could power the surrounds. They wouldn't get the 135 watts that are advertised, but they would be getting a lot closer since you took the burden of the front 3 speakers off of the receiver's amp section. 7 channel amps are also getting more and more affordable.
And for the placement of surrounds, a 5.1 system calls for them to be on the sides. It may depend on the shape of your room, also, but I'm not 100% on that. I do know that in a typical 5.1 setup, they go on the sides.
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post #3 of 21 Old 03-21-2012, 10:56 AM
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Have you bought all the equipment that you listed?

I assume the 9'9" width and 13'7" is length, you will have 1 row of seats @ 10' ish?

IMO, 64" screen for a home theatre is a tad small, will lack immersive feel.
There are guides here, but I've seen much bigger screens in a small sized theatre like you are doing.
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post #4 of 21 Old 03-21-2012, 12:06 PM
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Quietrock is generally not well thought of here. The consensus seems to be that two layers of 5/8" drywall with GG in between perform better at a much lower cost.

Put pink fiberglass insulation in the walls and in the joist bays.

The DD+GG will give you mass and dampening. The third element of soundproofing is decoupling, which would require removing the existing sheetrock (assuming there is any). Are you familiar with clips and hat channel? See: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...t-sound-clips/

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How do I sound proof a door though?

Start with a solid core 1-3/4" slab door (no raised panels or mouldings), and add mass (MDF) and dampening (GG). Weather strip the edges. Add an automatic seal to the bottom of the door:



Link: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...c-door-bottom/

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post #5 of 21 Old 03-21-2012, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Have you bought all the equipment that you listed?

I assume the 9'9" width and 13'7" is length, you will have 1 row of seats @ 10' ish?

IMO, 64" screen for a home theatre is a tad small, will lack immersive feel.
There are guides here, but I've seen much bigger screens in a small sized theatre like you are doing.

Agreed. 64" is a little on the small side. Not sure what the budget is, but you can get a 1080p projector and screen for well under $2000.00 these days. VisualApex even includes a mount and HDMI cables. The black levels won't be as good as your plasma, but the theater-like experience will more than make up for that. The budget projectors are getting better and better every year, also. I'm not sure if you mentioned this, but don't forget about room treatments. Again, GIK Acoustics can put together a nice package that won't break the bank. Keep us posted!
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post #6 of 21 Old 03-21-2012, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Already purchased all the equipment listed. Purchased the Onkyo specifically for these speakers 4 ohm rating and my current budget. Onkyo claims 8 ohm output is 135 watts, 6 ohm output is 160 watts, yet Onkyo does not put watt rating on the 4 ohm output. I would like to believe that the receiver will output 185 watts at 4 ohms, I realize this is wishful thinking. After listening to this receiver, a Denon, and a Yamaha with the LSi9's I decided on the Onkyo. Added bonus was the HQV video processor for 1080p upscaling. The 4k upscaling does me no good. I plan on using the receiver without a separate amp to start as I am spending quite a bit of cash on purchasing the home and the renovations.

The room is 9'9" wide 13' long and 7' tall and my plan is to have the first row as the sweet spot for both audio and immersive viewing distance, or my seat. I originally purchased a Sharp 70 inch LED with Sharp's 240 Aquamotion. After doing months of research and price shopping I was very exited to make the purchase. However after viewing the television with HD Cable and Blu-ray I was distracted constantly by artifacting and motion blur. The image was astonishing until anything moved and then the pixelation was horrible. Aquamotion is not 240Hz, but a 120Hz LCD screen with a 120Hz LED Backlight Flicker. I really wanted to like the Television because of the deal that I got and the amount of research that I had done, but Sharp's technology just is not good enough, at my price point of 3K or less.

Now the Samsung on the other hand has gorgeous image quality with no motion blur. It is not quite as large as the Sharp and cost a thousand more, but I am very pleased with the purchase. You are right about viewing distance not being quite as immersive as a projector. I had not considered projectors due to what I thought I knew about cost vs. quality, which is not much. My hope is that the first row is immersive for viewing, gaming, and 3d. While the second row sufficient for guests.

I have read quite a bit on resilient channel systems and have been considering Genie Clips, acoustiguard.com/Genie-Clip/ ,
but have been wondering if the added cost really would make a difference.

LOL too new to post URL properly.

Thank you for the advice against Quietrock, I now plan on going with the GG sandwich. I will be removing all the existing drywall to run cabling and sound deaden the room. Is Pink fiberglass a better solution than Rockwool or just more cost effective?

Have you, or anyone, used a decoupling system?

The Emotiva XPA-3 does look interesting though. I wonder what a similar 7 channel amplifier would cost. Any suggestions?

How does a separate power amp benefit sound quality?
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post #7 of 21 Old 03-21-2012, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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dwightp thanks for the link to the soundproofing company, I am sending off for a quote on materials.

What is mass dampening (MDF)?
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post #8 of 21 Old 03-22-2012, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Dolla Wells View Post


The Emotiva XPA-3 does look interesting though. I wonder what a similar 7 channel amplifier would cost. Any suggestions?

How does a separate power amp benefit sound quality?

Your receiver will not put out 135 watts with 4 ohms, 8 ohms, or any ohms. That I can assure you. 185 watts is NEVER going to happen with any receiver much less this one. With all channels driven, your receiver will probably put out about 40 to 60 watts per channel. A separate amp will deliver the power stated. I believe the XPA-3 at $699 will give you 300 watts per channel at 4 ohms. Outlaw Audio has several 7 channel offerings. The 7125 will get 190 watts at 4 ohms and 125 at 8 ohms for $999. The Emotiva XPA-3 is a really good way to get started into the world of separates. The idea behind the 3 channel amp is to put the demand of the front 3 speakers on the amplifier and let your receiver handle the mcuh less demanding surround channels. You will get much closer to 135 watts if your receiver's amp section is only pushing the surround channels. As far as sound quality goes, your speakers will get the power they were intended to receive. The best thing to do is listen to your speakers with the receiver powering them for a while and then take the plunge and buy an amp. You will notice a difference and you'll wonder why it took you so long to go to separates. Here's a really terrible example:

Let's say there is a scene in a movie where a guy is sitting quietly in his house listening to mozart. All you can hear is the fire in the fireplace and a faint instrument in the background coming from an old record player. All of a sudden, a group of bad guys come in and throw a grenade into his house, break in and start shooting up the place with automatic weapons for 10 minutes. The good guy escapes into the woods and all of a sudden the movie switches over to him running. All you can hear now is him breathing, footsteps in the snow, and leaves rustling. Now, in that 10-15 minute span in my fake movie scene, your speakers' impedance went from 2 ohms to 30 ohms and everything in between due to the demand being placed on them by the soundtrack of the movie. If you only had a receiver, you may not hear alot of subtle nuances in the soundtrack in the quiet scenes such as the crackle of the fire in the fireplace, the needle scratching across the Mozart record on the record player, or the faint explosions in the background as he is running away from them in the woods. And you may not get the full impact of the explosions in the loud scenes which is probably what most people are after. The reason is because your receiver also has to pass thru video or even upscale and process it, decode and process the surround format, and then try to send an amplified signal to 5 or 7 speakers. All on the same power supply. A separate amp takes the hardest and most demanding part of that away from the receiver and allows it to do what it does best, which is just sound and video processing. Another example would be an upgrade that you have already decided to make. And that is that you could just listen to your TV's speakers. But you know that those big Polk's are going to sound better and more immersive. Instead, what you've done is let your TV do what it does best, which is video only. An amplifier is just an upgrade to the upgrade you have already done.
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post #9 of 21 Old 03-22-2012, 07:31 AM
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I second the screen size comments. My projector screen is about 72" 16:9 diagonal and I'm already thinking it's a bit small. And my viewing distance is only about 9 feet in a 10.5 x 9.5 room.
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post #10 of 21 Old 03-22-2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Dolla Wells View Post

dwightp thanks for the link to the soundproofing company, I am sending off for a quote on materials.

What is mass dampening (MDF)?

Sorry about the cryptic explanation. MDF is Medium Density Fiberboard, sold in 4'x8' sheets at home centers. For this application, the important thing about MDF is that it is very heavy (lots of mass). The idea is that you cut a piece of MDF the same size as your door, apply GG to the back, and then screw it to your door. The MDF adds mass to the door and the GG creates a dampening layer, both of which are important for soundproofing.

Based on the many accounts here, the guys at the Soundproofing Company are great to deal with. I doubt you will find a more knowledgeable or helpful vendor. Ted White is very active on this forum and he's one of the principals at the Soundproofing Company.

Take a look at the Articles section of their website. There is a ton of very helpful info there.

Quote:


Is Pink fiberglass a better solution than Rockwool or just more cost effective?

I believe fiberglass is usually recommended because it performs just as well and costs much less.

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post #11 of 21 Old 03-23-2012, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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JVoth's poetic explaination of impedance sold me on the separate amplifier. I'm thinking the Emotiva XPA-5. Bi-amping the fronts does not seem to really benefit me.
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post #12 of 21 Old 03-23-2012, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Dolla Wells View Post

Plan is to build a tier for stagecoach

I'm not sure where you are planning on having the horses stand let alone keeping them quiet.

A diagram of the proposed layout of the room may be helpful.
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post #13 of 21 Old 05-21-2012, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Updated Thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post22049837

I plan on uploading photos but need to know how...
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post #14 of 21 Old 05-22-2012, 12:27 AM
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Why did you start another thread?

To upload a photo.

1. Save it to your cpu
2. Open a free account at photobucket.com
3. Upload the photos to you photobucket account Its very simple
4. Put mouse/cursor over the photo you want to add to the thread.
5. Place cursor over the bottom tag of that photo and left click on the mouse, its copied now
6. Click the globe attachment icon above the message box when typing a post
7. Delete the http.// and right click and paste
8. Click ok
9. Click post reply


I'm sure there are easier ways to do it but that way works for 99% of the forums so I've used that method for all of them

I know you already bought the TV but I'd strongly think about a projector. You could almost get a entry level one for a little more than what you are going to spend on an amp. I'd wait the amp out, get a pj, paint your own screen, and then enjoy your nice plasma in another room! Then once the upgrade bug hits you, get a better pj, better screen, amp, video processor, etc...

Once you go PJ you never go back!

And as far as the stagecoach, how do you plan on fitting more seating into the room?
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post #15 of 21 Old 05-22-2012, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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When I went to post here originally the system told me that this thread had no activity, so I started a new one. But I would prefer just to continue here, so lets do it. Thanks for the help with photobucket.



So I have gone through 2 Tv's already and I am currently waiting for the Panasonic 65" VT50 to come in. I originally purchased the 70" Sharp LED with '240 Aquamotion', which I returned due to motion blur and artifacts during all motion. Then I went plasma with the Samsung 64" d8000, which had near perfect image quality. However, the pn64d8000 suffers from a loud buzzing that is audible even over low volumes at a distance of 12'. I upgraded to the 2012 Samsung 64" e8000 pn64e8000, which has an even more stunning image and the same audible buzzing. From everything I have read about Panasonic plasma from AVSForum it appears that there will be less buzzing. The noise from this buzz actually makes my ears ring after viewing in addition to being just plain annoying. I will update this post with a review of the Panny once it arrives.

Equipment has changed since the LSi Series Home Theater Project post:

Samsung 64" Plasma e8000 pn64e8000 (soon to be the Panasonic 65" VT50 p65vt50)
Onkyo tx-nr809
Emotiva XPA-5
Emotiva Interconnects
LSi9 Ebony, LSic, LSiFX, DSWpro66wi
Raxxess Economy Speaker Stand 36" tall 12" top plate
12 gauge Rocksford Fosgate Speaker Wire (from local car audio store)
SEWELL Silverback Banana Plugs
SEWELL Premium HDMI cables
PS3 fatty, Xbox 360, Wii, CPU

I would like to thank the forum members for influencing my decision to go to a dedicated amplifier, decide placement of the speakers, and suggesting sound isolation solutions. This is my first Home Theater Build and your input has been invaluable to knowing how to construct this room right the first time. It has also been expensive.

I had originally planed on using 12 gauge wire that I had ordered from SEWELL direct. I tested the size of the wire and realized that it is NOT 12 gauge wire. It is more like a 14 or 16 gauge. After looking for true 12 gauge at FRYS and other retailers with no luck I called in a favor from one of my vendors in the Auto Industry. He set me up with a local car audio installer who carried the real deal. Should be great for in wall insulation too.

Demolition, framing, and wiring is complete. Currently decoupling the walls with RSC-1 clips and Hat Track, insulating, and then putting up the drywall, taping and floating.

We have built a staggered stud wall to mount the plasma and center channel on. This will provide sound isolation and allow the wall to carry the load. The two perimeter facing walls have a half wall constructed that will provide a ledge for two of the walls. The original 1960 single pane window has been replaced with a dual pane (with different thickness glass) sliding window. The window will ultimately seat a window plug to prevent sound from bleeding out. I am decoupling all the other walls and ceiling with RSC-1 clips and Hat Track. This will hold Sound FX drywall which is essentially two high density gypsum boards with Green Glue sandwiched in between. The outlets have been a challenge. I have had to find boxes that travel out from the studs to allow for depth of the resilient channel. I am also using Quiet Putty to isolate these boxes.
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post #16 of 21 Old 05-22-2012, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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post #17 of 21 Old 05-22-2012, 08:51 PM
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As someone with an Polk LSi setup now, I can tell you that you'll likely not be happy trying to push those with your receiver. Previously, I had an Atlantic Tech 250THX setup and drove them with an Onkyo 905. Sounded great. When I upgraded the the LSi setup (LSi15 LR, LSiC, LSiFX and LSi9), it did not sound good. Best money I spent on the system was an Outlaw Audio 7700 amp rated at 7x200WPC. Sounds great. Not suggesting you spend the money on my word, but if it does not sound like an expensive setup should when you are done, put an Amp at the top of your list IMHO.

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post #18 of 21 Old 05-26-2012, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
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i purchased a emotiva xpa-5 to drive the speakers. Hope it is worth the investment. Project should be finished within a week or two. Drywall goes up tomorrow!
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post #19 of 21 Old 05-26-2012, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Dolla Wells View Post

i purchased a emotiva xpa-5 to drive the speakers. Hope it is worth the investment. Project should be finished within a week or two. Drywall goes up tomorrow!

You will like the XPA-5.......I have two driving my (3) JTR Triple 8's and (6) Triad Silver 4 Inwalls.

Good luck with your build.
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post #20 of 21 Old 05-27-2012, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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post #21 of 21 Old 12-20-2012, 07:12 AM
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Did you ever finish this thing or what?
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