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post #1 of 57 Old 04-15-2012, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all
Just bought new house and will be making a 15x20 band practice studio in the basement.

Instead of going w quietrock, I am going to use green glue between 2 sheets of 5/8 Sheetrock' and use whisperclips on the ceiling.

At 1st, I was going to decouple the walls w clips too but I heard if they weren't attached to the foundation walls (there will be a space between stud wall and foundation wall) I was being redundant nd likely not going to gain anything by doing so.

1. It makes sense but was wondering if anyone had real life experience w this and had any input???

2. My second question is, will I have as good or better results from doubled up 5/8ths Sheetrock w gg vs 525 quietrock?

Thank you
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post #2 of 57 Old 04-15-2012, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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"arbitrarily Selecting a method"?

What is arbitrary about doubled 5/8 w gg, quietrock, and soundclips?

Pretty standard approach for residential construction.

I didn't say egg cartons on a garage door ...

Did you read before replying?

Thanks for the info you posted...although not Specifically pertinent to my specific and straighforward questions.

Who said anything about shortcuts?
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post #3 of 57 Old 04-15-2012, 04:06 PM
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Check out
http://www.thesoundproofingcompany.com

That site is a mumbo jumbo exclusion zone.

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post #4 of 57 Old 04-15-2012, 05:45 PM
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Moonzy, Dragon probably intended his post for the benefit of everyone that will read a thread with such title looking for general advice on sound proofing. That's why I clicked on it and found the other info helpful.

I didn't see any test data for green glue. I've heard people refer to testing that was done, but I didn't see it published anywhere.

I know not all designers use it. I would be interested in seeing civil discussion about the various techniques for building the isolation envelope and why some designers use one method over another.

I have also wondered if building method changes anything. DIY vs subcontractor vs turn-key.
  • DIY is typically price sensitive, time insensitive. So I assume that's why a cheap, high labor technique like onsite wall assembly with GG is often recommended here.
  • For subcontractors I think the biggest concern is that they won't do it correctly. Goal here would be to keep things simple and straight forward which could be done by using familiar construction techniques. I've wondered if GG and clips were best here? Maybe other techniques like stagger studs, or double studs, prefabbed walls (like quiet rock), or plywood for added mass would make more sense?
  • For turn-key you obviously go with whatever the designer uses. They are aware of the deficiencies of the materials/techniques they use and can compensate elsewhere. My point here is just because a $250,000 turn-key uses one formula to build walls, it doesn't mean that formula in isolation is necessarily best in non turn-key situations.

 

 

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post #5 of 57 Old 04-15-2012, 06:41 PM
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My room involved similar build issues. I used clips on the ceiling, but not on the two foundation wall sides. For those, I decoupled the framing w DC clips. My other two walls were double stud walls, again w DC clips. I used three layers of drywall w GG.

My room serves as a theater and a home music studio/jam room. I got quite good soundproofing results. There are a few places I could improve it (mainly the HVAC return and the door), but I am generally pleased with the performance.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post18949306
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post #6 of 57 Old 04-15-2012, 08:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

So don't worry, you needn't be bothered with the resources. I love how folks here ask for assistance and then complain when we supply more information than is necessary simply because the question was incomplete in multiple ways.


Why so angry? Your first reply was antagonistic. When you attack instead of guide, you should not be surprised if you are either summarily dismissed or attacked back.

Will doing double drywall, clips, etc., be better than doing nothing? Or using quietrock? Rhetorical question, for the obvious answer is yes.
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post #7 of 57 Old 04-15-2012, 09:47 PM
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Moonzy

if you are starting at the framing stage use IB3 clips to attach the top plate. Then use the whisper clips and channel on the ceiling and then add 2-3 layers of 5/8 drywall plus GG to the ceiling and walls. You can skip the channel on the walls if they face exterior foundation walls with an air gap. If the framing is already secured to the joists above use the clips and channel.

You need to address every wall penetration such as recessed lights and outlets with either backer boxes or putty pads. You need a plan for your HVAC. Duct work that is shared with other rooms in the house will be a problem.

The door should be beefy 1 3/4 thick solid core and if possible use communicating doors (inner and outer) with seals and sweeps.

A good resource is the library of articles at soundproofingcompany.com.

I've personally used most of those products and they work. Just installed a door bottom seal this weekend at a client site.
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post #8 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 04:02 AM
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Quote:


I didn't see any test data for green glue. I've heard people refer to testing that was done, but I didn't see it published anywhere.

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...-loss-testing/
http://www.greengluecompany.com/tools/test-data

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post #9 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 04:56 AM
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Quote:


At 1st, I was going to decouple the walls w clips too but I heard if they weren't attached to the foundation walls (there will be a space between stud wall and foundation wall) I was being redundant nd likely not going to gain anything by doing so.

1. It makes sense but was wondering if anyone had real life experience w this and had any input???

2. My second question is, will I have as good or better results from doubled up 5/8ths Sheetrock w gg vs 525 quietrock?

Some general food for thought for you:

All rooms are different. While the general approaches are the same, the specifics can vary from space to space.

1. Typically, one of the goals is to isolate a room such that you do not increase the noise levels in adjacent spaces by more than double. Example: A typical quiet residential home will have an ambient noise floor in the area of 33dB to 35dB using an NC or NR (not STC) curve. Therefore, your target for an adjacent space would be on the order of 36dB to 38dB when the band is playing at its maximum 'loudness'. Since we don't know what that number is, let's assume 110dB. In that case, you're looking a transmission loss on the order of 74dB (that will vary by frequency)...none-the-less that is significant. The real decision on your part is to decide what maximum level of transfer you (and your budget) are willing to tolerate.

2. You will have better results with two layers of 5/8" drywall plus Green Glue than with a single layer of QuietRock 525. As well, note that two staggered layers of drywall is less prone to installation oversights than a single layer of anything. (Green Glue is very tolerant of application variability.)

3. Not using isolation clips/HAT channel on the walls is a mistake. Those studs may be 1" from the foundation wall; but, they are connected directly to the structure of the house and your sound isolation efforts could very well suffer as a result of this approach. Think about it this way as well ... if, after you have built your room, you discover those non-decoupled walls aren't cutting the mustard for you, what amount of time, effort, and money is it going to take to fix that problem? Understand, you *will* have a partner in this project. His name is Mr. Murphy and Mr. Murphy usually wins.

4. Consider other "weak links" such as doors, HVAC ductwork, and those things which poke holes into your drywall such as electrical outlets, light switches, windows, etc. There's not much sense in going to big efforts to make major transmission losses and then go and cut a bunch of holes in your isolation walls/ceiling.

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post #10 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 05:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

Nonsense.

It was a generic statement of fact,,,

Why be generic to a specifc question? Why be antagonistic to his question? Again, rhetorical questions, there is no reason to do either.

If you wanted specifics, ASK for specifics, do not attack him for not supplying them. Follow the example of Big and Dennis, two VERY knowledgable people who are worthy of emulating here.


Quote:


And the answer to your question is very likely NO! As unless flanking vectors are addressed, of which nothing has been adequately identified, and about which we provided information sufficient to help make an informed determination, no amount of surface treatment will an effectiveness that is literally limited to and by the weakest link.

I am now pointing at you and laughing. You say it is better to do nothing. You do realize that doing nothing will, well, do nothing to mitigate sound, right? That one is not a rhetorical question, I honestly do not know if you understand that point.
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post #11 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Ha! Love it..

I saw this site. Good info. Thnx
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post #12 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Big and Dennis, thank you! You hit the nail on the head....I was forgetting the top plate.

As far as other leaks go...I situated the room where the ceiling was devoid of ductwork. Using a dedicated ventilation system and ac via mini split. I even went as far as to have all my receptacles mounted on the inside of the walls and only have a3/4 conduit coming through the wall. Ditto for the lights. This room is for function not looks.

The door I am having made out of black locust and I am fluting the side that faces the room, as well as gaskets all around and saddle.

Hey dragon....here is a resource for you. "how to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie
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post #13 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 08:11 AM
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Moonzy ... as a rather blatant plug, we do manufacture our own custom sound isolation doors. They are a laminated type, very heavy, Zero Intl seals and the 2.75" damped door is over 350 lbs. Mass and good seals is a good thing; but, mass and seals alone could be a weak point. Just FYI.

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post #14 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonzy1 View Post

Big and Dennis, thank you! You hit the nail on the head....I was forgetting the top plate.

Do you have a gap between your top plates and the joists above?
Ted at soundproofing said in this case clips are not required on walls.
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post #15 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Dennis. Thanks for the plug. I'll check it out.... A damped door is the piece I don't have.

235. Room not built yet but I did plan on nailing top plate to joists above...so I will instead use a decoupling clip between plate and wall now

I think I already know the answer but while I have you.....any benefit to decoupling the top plate and walls? I'm assuming no, or very marginal.
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post #16 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Or rather plate and joist
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post #17 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Dennis
Just checked out your site......wow! That is beyond impressive.
You are living the dream my friend.

How do I get a quote for a door? I don't see any products on websites

Thanks
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post #18 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonzy1 View Post

235. Room not built yet but I did plan on nailing top plate to joists above...so I will instead use a decoupling clip between plate and wall now

I think I already know the answer but while I have you.....any benefit to decoupling the top plate and walls? I'm assuming no, or very marginal.

To avoid having to put clips on wall make sure to leave a gap between the wall's top plate and the joists above. Even with nails between top plate and joist this is still considered decoupled.....see Ted's response in this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21413671
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post #19 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 10:22 AM
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Careful. Code may not allow that approach (either building or fire code) and where allowed (building) straps are required to prevent racking. More to the point, a traditionally framed, decoupled wall is not as effective at low frequencies than clips/channel.

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post #20 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 10:53 AM
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Very informative thread. I am getting ready to strip and sound"proof" a room as well. Thanks to all that participated.

I am sure dragon made some great points too, but I haven't finished translating (thesaurus and condescension decoder ring)...

Can't reach the folks at the soundproofing company (tried friday and today). Are they tough to get in touch with or did i catch them at a bad time?

Good luck with your room!
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post #21 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Careful. Code may not allow that approach (either building or fire code) and where allowed (building) straps are required to prevent racking. More to the point, a traditionally framed, decoupled wall is not as effective at low frequencies than clips/channel.

The framed wall I speak of is what new home builders in this area automatically put up in basements alongside foundation walls (as well as fiberglass insulation and poly barrier but no strapping). They are built that way because of our expansive clay soils that could cause heaving concrete floors. My neighbors (different builders) also have this type of framing so I suspect this doesn't violate any codes around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

More to the point, a traditionally framed, decoupled wall is not as effective at low frequencies than clips/channel.

I must be misunderstanding something....isn't a dual stud wall a traditionally framed decoupled wall? I thought dual stud walls were the cadillac version of decoupling (ie no contact whatsoever)?
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post #22 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 11:09 AM
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I must be misunderstanding something....isn't a dual stud wall a traditionally framed decoupled wall? I thought dual stud walls were the cadillac version of decoupling (ie no contact whatsoever)?

The framing method in your area is specific to your area. Colorado, for example, attaches the studs to the joists and the wall floats above the floor (no direct contact). If your "dual stud" is really "room within a room" and framed as 24" O.C. with no contact to the floor or joists above, then the results would be similar EXCEPT for the added depth of the wall.

Yes, the wall is decoupled BUT a traditional wall is 16" O.C. HAT channel is 24" O.C. which changes the low frequency transmission loss.

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post #23 of 57 Old 04-16-2012, 11:29 AM
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Moonzy1, Check the code in your area. If you're lucky like me here in Winnipeg you could have a cheaper solution that takes up less floor space and has similar performance. My builder put up my walls (next to foundation) with both 1" gap to joist and 24" OC studs. The 24" OC vs 16" OC allows more flex in DD/GG which makes the damping effects of the GG slightly more effective. Avoiding clips on these walls saves you some of the valuable cash and room width
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post #24 of 57 Old 04-17-2012, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonzy1 View Post

Hello all
Just bought new house and will be making a 15x20 band practice studio in the basement.

That's all one needs to state as far as performance needs. He needs to arm for bear. Surprising amount of negativity here for a very straightforward request.

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post #25 of 57 Old 04-17-2012, 06:55 AM
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Moonzy,
Some pics of the construction would probably be helpful. There are experts and self-taught soundproofing geniuses here who may spot something you've not even thought about.
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post #26 of 57 Old 04-17-2012, 08:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

Attacking? BS! I stated a fact. No specifics were supplied.

You can attack with facts.



Quote:


I stated a general premise...

...to a specific question.

Quote:


Which is apparently a bit too difficult for many here to navigate and failed to provide the emotional hand holding and coddling more than a few seem to require. I suggest discussing that with their therapist. It ain't my concern or problem.

You should follow your own suggestions.


Quote:


And while you are laughing...

Thanks, I will keep laughing at you. I did not expect you to concur that I should, though. See, common ground is easily found if looked for.





EDIT: I will stop derailing this otherwise good thread. Sorry to the others.

Moonzy, when you get a drawing of what you are planning to build, create a build thread for it. Most people were are WONDERFUL sources of info.
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post #27 of 57 Old 04-17-2012, 08:11 AM
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Well, I'd hate to have this thread closed as others have recently. By and large this is a very helpful and thoughtful group. Best to stay civil and ignore the negativity from the occasional ill-tempered poster

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post #28 of 57 Old 04-17-2012, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Well, I'd hate to have this thread closed as others have recently. By and large this is a very helpful and thoughtful group. Best to stay civil and ignore the negativity from the occasional ill-tempered poster

Thank you Ted. It's like when your younger sibling is pestering you. Fight back and you only fuel the fire. It really is best to just ignore it.

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post #29 of 57 Old 04-17-2012, 08:44 AM
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That's a particularly good analogy looking at this thread and other like it that have been recently closed.

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post #30 of 57 Old 04-17-2012, 08:55 AM
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From what I know the gentlemen who have recently been prolific with their technical audio expertise have yet to produce a picture of a Dedicated Home Theater they have designed/built for themselves or a client

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