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post #91 of 764 Old 10-08-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Ted. I'll let you know how it turns out. I start putting up the clips and hat channel today. Any helpful tips to avoid pitfalls?
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post #92 of 764 Old 10-08-2012, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm using 22 gauge channel. I have 82 12' pieces sitting in the driveway and their combined weight was listed at 400 lbs (I asked the guy just after he dropped them off with a fork lift when I tried to move them and they didm't budge an inch). eek.gif Still, I placed one of the clips on and it wasn't very difficult ( it was slightly loose) so I am concerned about the ceiling and all the items just falling out of the clips. Of course, until they are screwed in they remain quite rubbery and flexible so I'm hoping it's nothing more than that. We shall see. smile.gif
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post #93 of 764 Old 10-08-2012, 12:23 PM
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The benefit of the clip & channel relies on the flex of the channel. We never use 22 or 20 gauge, as the channel is too stiff to flex. We spec 25 gauge.

Many clip manufacturers would have you believe their performance gain is derived from their unique clip design or worse, the rubber. The goodness of the clip & channel system comes from the lighter 25 gauge channel and the correct spacing of the clips. This becomes much more the case the more the system is loaded with damped mass. Undamped mass will resonate.

Even with wood coffered ceilings and double drywall, we still spec 25 gauge steel.

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post #94 of 764 Old 10-08-2012, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Interesting. smile.gif I'd love to see testing on each (25 gauge vs 22 gauge with subsequent impact on noise reduction). Being from the medical field and always reading the latest journal article it seems this sounds like a good research project for this field. It's a little give and take though as I had your initial concern based on weight. You are right.... just about everything hard will resonate but Kinetics suggestion of MDF instead of Plywood based on resonance makes me think MDF is just slightly better than Plywood. But.... your point on weight comes front and center as MDF is not light. My clips are required to use either 22 to 25 gauge (per Kinetics) but with the amount of weight going on them and the amount of screws going into it, I don't think there will be much flex to anything after it's all done with 22 or 25. Still, this is a very interesting discussion.... This one area of noise reduction is quite interesting but has a lot subjective information out there and not enough standardized objective information in my opinion. rolleyes.gif I will be very interested if this turns out as planned. I think it will, however.
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post #95 of 764 Old 10-08-2012, 12:56 PM
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Damping the panels removes resonance issues, rendering mass as mass. The resonance is defined by density and panel thickness, however, resonate it will.

I've been testing these systems in formal labs (Orfield and Riverbank) using ASTM standardized testing since 2004 so when I suggest these things, I'm pretty comfortable that we're beyond subjective and anecdotal.

Obviously you're well underway with construction, so please understand that when I post comments, it's for the thousands that will read this thread years from now.

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post #96 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 12:18 AM - Thread Starter
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On to the next phase... sound control. For the record; I will be following the instructions as closely as possible by the maker of the clips; Kinetics Noise Control for those who are curious. Here is the recommended hat channel:
IMG_0806.jpg
IMG_0804.jpg

The first section going up. The 22 gauge still bends easily at any midpoint but I think it will handle the extra weight going on to it. Actually, the walls have all the weight directly on transferred to the floor as your supposed to sit the first layer down on a strip of rubber like material. The ceiling is a different story. I hope it's strong enough for all the weight and the star ceiling going on it.
IMG_0807.jpg
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post #97 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 03:28 AM
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Clips, channel, 2 layers of drywall and then the mahagony .... on 25 gauge. Still up, hasn't come down.

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post #98 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 05:08 AM
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Doc, Your clip pattern is not staggered and you are concentrating the load on less than the total number of studs you have. If you continue this approach to the ceiling you may have a problem.

Did a quick search of a staggered pattern:

staggeredlayout.png
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post #99 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 05:29 AM
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That's the manufacturer's suggestions, however. That appears to be a 24 x 32 pattern, compared to a 24 x 48, assuming 16" OC framing.

Just for curiosity's sake, is that channel hemmed?

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post #100 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 10:59 AM
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Even a 24x32 Pattern can be staggered, Doc's isn't.
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post #101 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 11:21 AM
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Oh I certainly agree, Big. That's what the mfg specs, however. I believe they're the only ones that don't recommend applying clips in a staggered pattern for some reason.

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post #102 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 11:32 AM
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I wonder if they get more flex that way (not necessarily compared to 25 ga. with staggered spacing, but comparing 22 ga with staggered spacing vs. lined up)? With the clips lined up, the board is free to flex between the clips all the way up, but with a staggered layout, that is constrained at the next piece of channel. Just guessing as I really have nothing to base that on.

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post #103 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 11:37 AM
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That's possible, however I think their spec is just based on simplicity for installation

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post #104 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 11:44 AM
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Still you have to be concerned about concentrating the weight of the ceiling on just 1/2 of the joists if you don't use a staggered scheme.
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post #105 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 12:03 PM
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Again, totally agreed

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post #106 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Welcome back Big. That theater you posted is truly beautiful. Too bad you don't live out here in Hawaii, I wouldn't mind paying some consulting fees when it comes to the detailed woodwork while still trying this as mostly a DIY project.

Great discussion all. I'm not worried regarding the wall studs holding the weight (there is actually very littel weight on that wall), so I just followed the diagram from Kinetics. All the extra weight on the hat channel is a concern but I won't reopen that discussion again. I will say that the 22 gauge is still quite flexible, especially at any length. As the one writing the checks for everything it comes down to peace of mind knowing this whole thing won't collapse. As far as Kinetics goes; they've been quite helpful and easy to work with and I wouldn't hesitate buying from them again (they were also willing to endure lots of questions from this enthusiast). Here is one of their diagrams:
wall.png

To answer some other questions; yes, the studs are 16" on center..... yes, I am going with slightly more clips than the minimum on the chart above. By the way, Kinetics has all their info on this in this very helpful PDF: http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/pdf/isomaxinstall.pdf

The ceiling is a different story. Even though it seems some of you work with 25 gauge often, I am still concerned about the weight on the ceiling. Not only will the clips be offset but I plan to use many more than the minimum there as well (I'll use more than the minimum any place that something will be anchored to (large tv, speakers, projector, star ceiling). In the areas that have less weight they will be spaced 48" width and 24" high per the maximum rec's on the diagram. You actually can't see all the clips due to the poor pic from my iphone but there are some on the edges that are already spaced at 48".
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post #107 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Big (or anyone else there who often works with this stuff),

I forgot to ask you.... in your opinion, which power tool cuts these hat channels the best (and what is your second choice in power tools)? I'm experimenting on how to get these things cut safely and quickly without deforming them. I could do them all by hand but I'd rather not... way too much to do. Thanks.
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post #108 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 05:17 PM
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I just use a hand tool (metal snips) and bend them back into shape with my fingers, If you need to make quick work of it you can pop an abrasive metal cutting blade in your miter saw. It will generate a cloud of sparks and smoke, wear protective gear.
037103239976.jpg
Cut each side then bend and cut at the bend.
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post #109 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 05:31 PM
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You can rent a chop saw specifically set up for cutting steel (studs, channel, etc). Not a tidy process as Big said, but I prefer it. Very fast and I like the cut edges it leaves.

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post #110 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Big for the second opinion. The first opinion said the same thing... hand tools. I guess I'm in it for the long haul. eek.gif

Thanks Ted.... (I just saw your post after submitting the above). A quick follow up... on a scale of 1 to 10, how dangerous is the chop saw method? I need my fingers and eyes....
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post #111 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 05:50 PM
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If you feel safe operating a power saw you can cut metal in a chop saw. You need to wear eye protection and make sure that the sparks won't ignite anything. If you do it inside leave a window open.
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post #112 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

A quick follow up... on a scale of 1 to 10, how dangerous is the chop saw method? I need my fingers and eyes....

There is a hold-down clamp and the system is quite stable. If I were coming over to your place for beer and pineapple, I would haul a saw over no question. But that's so I have more time to concentrate on the beer.

Did I see an air filter in one of your previous pics? Might be good to have nearby, but away from sparks.

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post #113 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 07:41 PM
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I was scared when I put up osb and drywall on my ceiling, its crazy what the clips channel can handle, and for the record, my channel looked different, hmm.

Mine is 25 gauge, 7/8 hemmed edge but looks like this rather than what psychdoc has posted.

Hope stuff I used was right stuff eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif


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Hope stuff I used was right stuff eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

That's the right stuff, baby! biggrin.gif
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post #115 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 07:50 PM
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Ya. You're good. The hemmed edge is the biggest deal.

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Ya. You're good. The hemmed edge is the biggest deal.

Whats the difference in the raise top edge opposed to the flush? Maybe sucks screw tighter to channel?

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post #117 of 764 Old 10-09-2012, 08:12 PM
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I've used both and I'm not losing any sleep over the difference. Different Manufacturers slightly different designs.
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post #118 of 764 Old 10-10-2012, 03:33 AM
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This pattern


is carrying this load ...




(Same climate).
We've done much higher loads including an old school plaster ceiling. The keys are:
(1) evenly distribute the load across all the structural members;
(2) calculate the weight per square foot and don't exceed the manufacturer's load bearing specifications.

In this case, I'd stagger those clips on the ceiling regardless of the Kinetics instructions to the contrary.
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post #119 of 764 Old 10-10-2012, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

wall.png
To answer some other questions; yes, the studs are 16" on center..... yes, I am going with slightly more clips than the minimum on the chart above. By the way, Kinetics has all their info on this in this very helpful PDF: http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/pdf/isomaxinstall.pdf
The ceiling is a different story. Even though it seems some of you work with 25 gauge often, I am still concerned about the weight on the ceiling. Not only will the clips be offset but I plan to use many more than the minimum there as well (I'll use more than the minimum any place that something will be anchored to (large tv, speakers, projector, star ceiling). In the areas that have less weight they will be spaced 48" width and 24" high per the maximum rec's on the diagram. You actually can't see all the clips due to the poor pic from my iphone but there are some on the edges that are already spaced at 48".

I'm certainly not one of the experts here, but I believe putting in more clips than are required to hold the weight of the drywall, soffits, etc will have a detrimental effect on the goal of soundproofing. You need enough to carry the load safely, but too many and you may as well be screwing the drywall to the studs.
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post #120 of 764 Old 10-10-2012, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

I'm certainly not one of the experts here, but I believe putting in more clips than are required to hold the weight of the drywall, soffits, etc will have a detrimental effect on the goal of soundproofing. You need enough to carry the load safely, but too many and you may as well be screwing the drywall to the studs.

Bad things:

  • Too many clips
  • Improperly spaced clips
  • Stiff channel

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