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post #271 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 11:15 AM
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I think the "missing link" is that there also needs to be a damper on the return for the theater. So when the supplies shut, the return shuts. When they open then everything opens. That way the volume of air is in balance. It will work since you are essentially adding a dedicated return to the system while not downsizing the others in the main basement and upstairs. Therefore the return to the theater can be closed off with no impact to the amount of feed air coming back through the existing returns.
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post #272 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Tim-

Let me see if I get this right, fix anything I mess up:

HT will run both supplies and return (all in the closed HVAC loop) with Dampers open during all phases EXCEPT when heat is called. When heat is called the dampers for the supplies and return will close.

Now, do I leave it like this or do I used the DV to supply and exhaust the air from the adjacent room only while the dampers have the main supplies and return closed.
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post #273 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 12:07 PM
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Okay, this is kind of a work in progress as to what I think you are trying to do. If I am wrong, let me know.

232323232%7Ffp6357%3B%3Enu%3D57%3C3%3E53%3A%3E25%3A%3EWSNRCG%3D355833%3C%3B%3C534%3Bnu0mrj

Looking this over, there are a couple things I could see being modified:

1. You might be able to save some money by not installing MOD-RA. If MOD-SA and MOD-BYPASS are both closed, the return would try to pull a little air, but if there is none going into the room, none will be going out. Just to save a little money.

2. The return fan might not be necessary. If you can get an appropriate fan with the correct CFM that takes care of all required static pressure drop (grilles, dampers, supply deadvents, return deadvents). You dont necessarily NEED a return fan in the return duct if the supply fan can take care of the pressure drop you are adding. The existing furnace should already be sized for the existing ductwork - you just cant rely on it being oversized enough for the pressure drop you are adding.

3. You could remove the chunk of ductwork that contains MOD-SA. This would give you a system that does not supply 57 degree air into the theater room, but instead provides about 70 degree temperature in the room (whatever the adjacent space is at). You would then be able to remove all dampers and just run the fan(s) off a tstat located in the theater room. This option is cheaper, but at the expense of never having nice cold air enter the theater room.

After thinking about this a little more, if you do end up connecting to both the supply and return mains, you could still size your fans at the higher airflow. It would just cool the room down faster than it normally would - you may rob a little cooling from the rest of the zone when the fans are on, but if they are running that probably means people are in the theater.

If I am way off base, let me know and I can just delete this post to avoid confusion. Sometimes its easier just to make a quick sketch to think things through.
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post #274 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fax6202 View Post

Tim-
Let me see if I get this right, fix anything I mess up:
HT will run both supplies and return (all in the closed HVAC loop) with Dampers open during all phases EXCEPT when heat is called. When heat is called the dampers for the supplies and return will close.
Now, do I leave it like this or do I used the DV to supply and exhaust the air from the adjacent room only while the dampers have the main supplies and return closed.

Yes, this is what I am suggesting....but I see Brian's schematic and like the engineering he did on the return vent where the return for the theater will draw from the theater when you are ventilating / cooling but will draw from the conditioned part of the basement when you are heating.

Brian's drawing is really good and the HVAC guy you hired should provide something similar. The only thing I see in Brian's drawing that needs confirmation (as Brian correctly points out) is if your supply / return runs to the theater will be able to achieve the needed CFM naturally, of if in-line fans would have to be added to get the proper cooling CFM into your room. That is something the HVAC guy you hired should take into consideration as part of his thermal load calculation.

Great sketch Brian - it really makes all these endless posts clear and concise with one simple visual!
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post #275 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The sketch is great, I just need it dumbed down a bit. Due to my lack of experience with this I guess a simple explanation goes a bit smoother.

I have 2 supplies. 1 return. Supplies and returns are connected to the HVAC and part of a closed loop. That is what I have as of right now.

What we have been discussing is what to do in the winter when the rest of the zone is calling for heat and the HT is already to warm. The zone will not not this because the zone thermostat is upstairs.

I know you understand all of this and I am repeating everything I just wanted to lay it out there.

Can you write-up exactly what you are talking about. My last thought/idea was that I would leave the above as is, but install dampers to the supplies and return. I would install a thermostat in the HT. When it reached temperature X, then the dampers would close.

What was not decided yet was what to do during that time. With the dampers closed should I do nothing, or should I have a deadvent exchanging air with the adjacent room while the dampers are closed in the supply and return.
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post #276 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Great sketch Brian - it really makes all these endless posts clear and concise with one simple visual!

Thanks, I figured a sketch was in order - as there are close to 100 posts just on this subject alone biggrin.gif
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post #277 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Agreed-

Thanks Tim and Bryan. Its time to put this to rest, tons of information for those who are looking but a lot to view skimming through a thread.

A question - is there a way within this thread to compile all of these posts into one link for any to reference?

Tim - PM sent
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post #278 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have a good formula to figuring out how much drywall channel is needed. Need to pick some up tomorrow. I was just adding estimated linear feet.
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post #279 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 06:26 PM
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That's all I ever did. Just counted up one stick per outside corner and then added up the linear feet of any soffit edge and divided by 8 to get how many sticks I needed. That's what the pros do as well, fyi.
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post #280 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fax6202 View Post

A question - is there a way within this thread to compile all of these posts into one link for any to reference?

Not unless you manually do it or multi-quote and edit the living crap out of it.
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post #281 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thats what I was afraid of. ah well on to the rest of the project then. I have started to get quite a pile of clear Walnut ready to go. Also had a ton of chestnut and white oak laying around. I suppose I will trim the rest of the basement out with this.
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post #282 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by fax6202 View Post

Thats what I was afraid of. ah well on to the rest of the project then. I have started to get quite a pile of clear Walnut ready to go. Also had a ton of chestnut and white oak laying around. I suppose I will trim the rest of the basement out with this.

Walnut=NICE!!!

I love walnut...too cheap to buy it, but I went with the dark wood dye to try to get a similar look!
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post #283 of 597 Old 07-30-2012, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brausch View Post

Walnut=NICE!!!
I love walnut...too cheap to buy it, but I went with the dark wood dye to try to get a similar look!

I am lucky enough to have access to some fine amish sawmills. I pay about 1.65 - 185.00 a b/ft. My father and father in law are both woodworker hobbyists. But yes, I agree Walnut is a fine looking wood. My personal preference is to select a good hardwood and just clear coat it, so the natural wood is on display. I am not using steamed walnut however so the color will not be perfectly consistent.
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post #284 of 597 Old 07-31-2012, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Found a building specialties shop today about 15 miles a way. Selling the furring channel I need for 4.20 per 12ft piece. Much cheaper than HD.
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post #285 of 597 Old 08-01-2012, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Picked up the Channel yesterday, clips should be in tomorrow. On tap for this weekend is to install all clips and channel, insulate ceiling, and finish the DD/GG in between a few joists. This will keep me busy
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post #286 of 597 Old 08-01-2012, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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A little more information on the IB riser build.....

IB will be built under the last row of seats. Drivers would be placed in the riser facing up. The riser would be sealed w/ acoustic calk on all sides and sealed to a floating sub-floor below, creating a box.

The idea is to open up the joist cavities to each other to get the most box volume we can.

How many drivers we can fit will depend on the Vas of the driver selected vs the volume of the riser.
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post #287 of 597 Old 08-01-2012, 08:57 AM
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I'm certainly no IB expert, but I think if you were to place the drivers in a manifold setup, you would lose less floor space and could cover them with a simple vent cover. Something like this photo from Keager's Quad RE XXX 18 build. But really, I know nothing of which I speak on this subject. Can't wait to see this come together.

C360_2012-06-16-06-33-19.jpg

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post #288 of 597 Old 08-01-2012, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Wish I had an answer for you, I am following bpape's lead. As far as floor space, the riser will be no bigger than the original plan, it will just be more open in the joists. Also, the drivers will be positioned facing upward, thus eliminating the need to make a tall riser.
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post #289 of 597 Old 08-01-2012, 09:29 AM
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Sounds good. That's going to be pretty cool!!

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post #290 of 597 Old 08-01-2012, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, since I will have a sealed sub up front behind the screen then the IB will augment the main front sub. From what I have read the best performance for this setup is, going with a very low crossover point for the rear IB.
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post #291 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 08:35 AM
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great build so far. I am very curious about the IB riser- I have often wondered about this idea when looking at the size of some risers being done...
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post #292 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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great build so far. I am very curious about the IB riser- I have often wondered about this idea when looking at the size of some risers being done...

I am really looking forward to doing this. I have to say I am a bit surprised that I cannot find anyone who has done this. I am sure it has been done many times, but nobody has chimed in yet. Oh, well...i guess I'll be the test dummy.
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post #293 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 09:20 AM
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I'm guessing the volume of the riser is the biggest hurdle for most people on this, along with adequate construction. I've never sat down and done the calculations, but I think one would need a pretty substantial riser to get a volume of >6x VAS per sub. For most people (baseless guess) would probably have riser volumes in the area making a large low tuned sub. And that's still cool, just not IB cool.

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post #294 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I think the key will be to use smaller drivers, 10-12". You need so much more volume for the 15's and 18's in order to reach your target VAS. Just browsing through some of them yesterday; Dayton 15" drivers had around 14.5 VAS, while the 10" drivers had around 4 VAS. Huge difference.

Fortunately I have 9' ceilings in the basement so I can make the riser with a height that will give me more volume. Maybe something like 16". Not sure yet, and I dont know how that is going to effect the viewing, which is paramount of course.
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post #295 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 09:53 AM
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I wish I lived close enough to take a listen once you get that all up and running. I bet it's going to rock. And on the plus side, you won't need any butt kickers on the chairs on the risers. cool.gif

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post #296 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I hope it sounds as great when finished as I think it will. That is exactly why I am taking bpape's lead in designing this thing. I am just the laborer...and the bank.
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post #297 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fax6202 View Post

Also, the drivers will be positioned facing upward, thus eliminating the need to make a tall riser.

I played around with the idea of using the riser as an IB chamber but never got past the planning stage. For me, the biggest stumbling block was mounting the drivers without, as you say, making a super-tall riser.

A couple of things worried me about mounting the drivers on top of the riser, firing upwards: First, I was concerned about the effect horizontal mounting would have on the driver's suspension over time. If the suspension sagged, would the driver start bottoming out or something? There are manufacturers who mount their sub drivers in a down-firing configuration, so presumably they believe the drivers are durable in that application. Maybe careful driver selection takes care of this issue. Rythmik's DIY plans for its 12" and 15" sub drivers (available on their website) are down-firing, so I guess those drivers might be good candidates. I don't know if they are otherwise suitable for IB use, though.

My other concern about up-firing sub drivers was where to place them on the riser without exposing them to foot traffic or burying them under the chairs. I figured I would put them toward the back and try to get them behind the chairs, but that would have been a little dicey because my riser wasn't very deep.

Have you considered any alternatives to the IB? For example, a decent-sized riser could accomodate a couple of Lilmike's T-6 tapped horns laying on their sides (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1358033/lilmikes-cinema-t-6/0_50). That would give you plenty of output from 30Hz up.

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post #298 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fax6202 View Post

I am just the laborer...and the bank.

Hmm, kinda sounds like a marriage...

ISOM.jpg

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post #299 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightp View Post

I played around with the idea of using the riser as an IB chamber but never got past the planning stage. For me, the biggest stumbling block was mounting the drivers without, as you say, making a super-tall riser.
A couple of things worried me about mounting the drivers on top of the riser, firing upwards: First, I was concerned about the effect horizontal mounting would have on the driver's suspension over time. If the suspension sagged, would the driver start bottoming out or something? There are manufacturers who mount their sub drivers in a down-firing configuration, so presumably they believe the drivers are durable in that application. Maybe careful driver selection takes care of this issue. Rythmik's DIY plans for its 12" and 15" sub drivers (available on their website) are down-firing, so I guess those drivers might be good candidates. I don't know if they are otherwise suitable for IB use, though.
My other concern about up-firing sub drivers was where to place them on the riser without exposing them to foot traffic or burying them under the chairs. I figured I would put them toward the back and try to get them behind the chairs, but that would have been a little dicey because my riser wasn't very deep.
Have you considered any alternatives to the IB? For example, a decent-sized riser could accomodate a couple of Lilmike's T-6 tapped horns laying on their sides (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1358033/lilmikes-cinema-t-6/0_50). That would give you plenty of output from 30Hz up.

Could you mount the drivers to the front of the riser so they are firing into the chairs in the first row?

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post #300 of 597 Old 08-02-2012, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Concerning DwightP's post above......

I don't think under the seats will be a problem. Remember we're crossing them pretty low - maybe 50-60Hz at most. The bass will get out plenty strong. The T6 isn't something I would consider honestly. Not a bad piece but 30Hz cutoff realistically? A couple of 12 or 15" woofers in an IB in the riser should be able to do well under 20Hz.
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