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post #361 of 597 Old 08-19-2012, 10:17 AM
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Various Power Tools - no comment

Ha classic. Yeah, I wouldn't even want to know how much I've spent on tools.

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post #362 of 597 Old 08-19-2012, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Ha classic. Yeah, I wouldn't even want to know how much I've spent on tools.

I wish I could say its just power tools, but it extends to all tools. But I feel that you can never have too many guns or tools!
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post #363 of 597 Old 08-20-2012, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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A quick note....for all those that work in their HT's solo. Highly recommend a panel lift. I know many others have done the same but I really love this contraption. Works great and is very inexpensive.

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post #364 of 597 Old 08-20-2012, 09:26 AM
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I feel that you can never have too many guns or tools!

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post #365 of 597 Old 08-21-2012, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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As I am in the process of putting up the OSB and drywall I have started playing around with the coffer design. Am going for this look as far as the pattern and lighting



And here is the inside trim design of each recess



I will be doing all of the millwork w/ some assistance from my father. Will be using a moulder to make all of the profiles. Again, everything will be in Walnut w/ a Poly finish.

What do you guys think of the design? Is it too much for a ceiling?

Thoughts.....
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post #366 of 597 Old 08-21-2012, 08:44 AM
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That's definitely a very sharp traditional design. My preference would be to get away from the Walnut in the center of each coffer as it really starts to make it look very "heavy". Plus with that much flat surface and shiny poly finish (even if it is matted), that can be annoying to the eye in a dark theater and reflect a lot of light.
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post #367 of 597 Old 08-21-2012, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I tend to agree. A paint matching the fabric on the walls would look good. What do you think about a dark paint, like a midnight blue or even black.

Also, I only have so much Walnut on hand, I will need to get some more which starts to add up. I know of a few very good suppliers but I need a ton.

Right now I have estimated about 250 l/f of both crown and base, 160 l/f of backband, and 85 l/f of chair
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post #368 of 597 Old 08-21-2012, 09:46 AM
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So what does all that weight do to the clips and channel on the ceiling? Is there any potential for sag at some point and does it affect the acoustic properties of the clips?

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Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
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post #369 of 597 Old 08-21-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

So what does all that weight do to the clips and channel on the ceiling? Is there any potential for sag at some point and does it affect the acoustic properties of the clips?

The clips are designed to carry a static load and not sag. Most codes recommend 8" OC screw pattern for securing to hat channel on the ceiling, 12" on walls...so the chance of any sagging with that much fixation is very slim.

Dave - I like the flat black inside the coffers and that is what I did in my last theater 8 years ago. I can dig up some pics, upload to Photobucket and post here at some point if you would like to see.
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post #370 of 597 Old 08-21-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Tim-

That would be great, thanks.

Blldo-

There are also ways to cut down on weight with the coffers as well. You can create an 'X' section where the beams intersect. The bottom of the beam would have to be the complete run, however the insides of the coffer can be only trim. Attaching the crown to the ceiling and the backband and/or base to the bottom of the beam. This eliminates long runs in between cross sections. Although then you would have to preassemble your inside trim. This is an illustration of what i am talking about

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post #371 of 597 Old 08-21-2012, 10:24 AM
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Gotcha - Thanks, that's a great illustration.

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Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
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post #372 of 597 Old 08-21-2012, 02:39 PM
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I can't find all the finished shots, but I think maybe a couple of in-process shots will work even better. I painted the ceiling flat black, then chalked lines, attached 2x4s with glue and screws and went to work. I first made a jig out of some finished scrap that would allow me to get the real width of the beams in the ceiling. My headroom was extremely challenged in this space because the builder failed to install the two extra courses I had paid for....but you can see the steel beam I had to conceal in the coffer to maintain headroom. I also put my Sony Qualia 004 at the back of the room with a long-throw lens and custom viewport with THX-certified white water crown glass. The entire cavity drew air from the bottom and an in-line fan brought all of the exhaust out into the finished part of the basement outside the theater. The shot showing the projector shows a sample of the finished ceiling, fyi.

117_1735.jpg

ProjectorasseenthroughtheCustomViewport.jpg

I am also throwing out a couple of pictures I had in my files of designs that had coffered ceiling details I liked. Here they are:

FullTheaterwithFirstImpressionsSeating.jpg

LightedCofferedCeiling.jpg
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post #373 of 597 Old 08-22-2012, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Very nice looking ceiling Tim. The colors are very similar to what I will be putting in. I love the dark brown / tan combination.

Did you have any issues with sound isolation on the beam in the ceiling?
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post #374 of 597 Old 08-22-2012, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure if any are interested in this, but i'll post anyways.

I took a trip down to my favorite lumber yard today. Had to get some red oak kiln dried for trim work in the basement. While I was there I was chatting with one of the mill workers about my finish plans for the HT. Up until today the plan was to get steamed walnut, which gives you a more consistent color as steaming blends the heartwood color with the sap wood. The problem with this IMO is that the wood loses its dark crisp tone that Walnut is known for. So I decided that I am just going to get lumber that is stickered and then kiln dried. When I do the milling I am going to have a good bit more waste, but I thought; I have to do this right the first time around or I'll regret it.

I know this is probably more than anyone wants to know about steaming hard wood, but for anyone that is interested in a fine wood finish...that's my plan.
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post #375 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 07:40 AM
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He said steaming hard wood.... huh huh huh huh huh huh . . .
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post #376 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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lmao....I haven't seen that show on TV in a long time.
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post #377 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

So what does all that weight do to the clips and channel on the ceiling? Is there any potential for sag at some point and does it affect the acoustic properties of the clips?

Turns out you were on to something. After talking to Ted this morning I have decided to take down the OSB I have on the ceiling. It actually came down in about a half hour. What I need to do is decrease my clip spacing from 48" to 32". It was this option or I could have decreased the channel spacing from 24" to 16". I chose the former. It sucks as i thought that the ceiling would be fine to handle the distributed weight of the coffers.

So the channel and clip configuration is designed to support around 4.5lbs per sq/ft. The weight of OSB, GG, and 5/8 drywall is right at that limit if not a bit over. I just didnt want to take the chance of the ceiling sagging in the future, plus I will sleep better and wont stare at the ceiling everytime I look up.

Additional clips and GG should be here on Monday/Tuesday and then I will knock out both layers and get this portion of my build done.
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post #378 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fax6202 View Post

Very nice looking ceiling Tim. The colors are very similar to what I will be putting in. I love the dark brown / tan combination.
Did you have any issues with sound isolation on the beam in the ceiling?

This is the theater where I used the Kinetics Noise Control ICW isolation hangers: http://www.kineticshometheater.com/products/icw.html Between the hanger, the cold rolled steel "C" channel and then the hat track the ceiling ended up lower than the top lip of the steel I-beam which allowed me to get my OSB / GG /Drywall combo very close to the center portion of the steel without touching. Not shown in this picture but I also applied a car audio product called Dynamat directly to the Steel beam to reduce any vibration noises that would make it through. I ended up caulking the gap between the ceiling materials and the center of the I-Beam with acoustic caulking. I then filled the sides of the steel beam and the inside of the coffer with the pink stuff and put my coffered ceiling over the beam, making the sides of the beam deep enough to cover the face without touching it. I used some pipe wrap on the advice of my electrician to keep the Romex off the steel beam, thereby eliminating any potential rubbing or knocking issues between the beam and the romex.

I have to say it worked well. I could barely hear any rumble from the subwoofers when the theater system was CRANKED on a loud explosion-laden movie passage. At normal levels I couldn't hear anything, so I will rate that as a success. Certainly not optimal, but adequately dampened that if I wanted to go down and rip the knob off the theater I could be completely confident my sleeping wife would never hear it - even if she fell asleep on the couch.
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post #379 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fax6202 View Post

Turns out you were on to something. After talking to Ted this morning I have decided to take down the OSB I have on the ceiling. It actually came down in about a half hour. What I need to do is decrease my clip spacing from 48" to 32". It was this option or I could have decreased the channel spacing from 24" to 16". I chose the former. It sucks as i thought that the ceiling would be fine to handle the distributed weight of the coffers.
So the channel and clip configuration is designed to support around 4.5lbs per sq/ft. The weight of OSB, GG, and 5/8 drywall is right at that limit if not a bit over. I just didnt want to take the chance of the ceiling sagging in the future, plus I will sleep better and wont stare at the ceiling everytime I look up.
Additional clips and GG should be here on Monday/Tuesday and then I will knock out both layers and get this portion of my build done.

Not trying to brag...but, I pointed that out to you in post 349. At any rate I am glad that you are going to do it the right way.
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post #380 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 04:54 PM
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I'm glad you went that way also..eek.gif

It's amazing that you cn get up to a 13 pound per square foot load on those simple clips and channel if spaced properly. I like the inexpensive simplicity

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post #381 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Not trying to brag...but, I pointed that out to you in post 349. At any rate I am glad that you are going to do it the right way.

Your input is always appreciated and welcomed. What I failed to realize until talking to Ted today was the the clip and channel design scheme was rated at almost the exact weight of the materials. No room for additional weight.

5/8 Drywall is rated at 2.2 lbs/sqft, 19/32 OSB is 1.8 to 2.1. Lets use the higher end for arguments sake, that gives us 4.3. I think Ted said the system was designed for a weight of 4.4 or 4.5.

I assumed the limited weight added would be just fine. But you know what they say about assuming things.
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post #382 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 04:58 PM
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The trick is to maintain a spring while increasing the load

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post #383 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Ted-

Absolutely, I wasnt thinking about that when I asked you if I could just throw in some clips and channel between the already 24" OC channels. I guess when the ceiling becomes too stiff it limits the ceilings ability to dissipate the sound energy into heat. Is that correct?
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post #384 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 05:26 PM
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Ceiling becomes too stiff if you use too many clips up front. You only add clips as you increase the load. What we're really trying to do is lower the natural resonance frequency of the wall or ceiling. Adding mass, be it drywall or wood coffer, all helps the cause a lot.

Once a system is effectively decoupled, we use the variables of mass, cavity depth, and absorption (yes/no) to drop that resonance frequency as low as we can. Interestingly, damping does not help change the frequency of this resonance, it simply reduces the severity of that resonance.

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post #385 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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So the coffered ceiling effects sound isolation by providing additional mass? I never knew that. What about acoustics in the room?
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post #386 of 597 Old 08-23-2012, 07:05 PM
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Dennis is the fellow to ask about the in-room acoustic effect. The mass is very desirable. Like a third sheet of drywall. Excellent mass.

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post #387 of 597 Old 08-24-2012, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fax6202 View Post

Turns out you were on to something. After talking to Ted this morning I have decided to take down the OSB I have on the ceiling. It actually came down in about a half hour. What I need to do is decrease my clip spacing from 48" to 32". It was this option or I could have decreased the channel spacing from 24" to 16". I chose the former. It sucks as i thought that the ceiling would be fine to handle the distributed weight of the coffers.
So the channel and clip configuration is designed to support around 4.5lbs per sq/ft. The weight of OSB, GG, and 5/8 drywall is right at that limit if not a bit over. I just didnt want to take the chance of the ceiling sagging in the future, plus I will sleep better and wont stare at the ceiling everytime I look up.
Additional clips and GG should be here on Monday/Tuesday and then I will knock out both layers and get this portion of my build done.

It sucks going backwards, but better to do stuff right now, than worry about it later.

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post #388 of 597 Old 08-24-2012, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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It hasnt taken very long. I already have the ceiling down and the new clips and channel up in what is now a configuration of 32" OC.

Also, after speaking with Ted on the phone a few hours ago it was decided that I needed to beef up a few other areas. I wanted to add a little more support to the soffits running the perimeter of the room. But more importantly the back soffit which will also house the hush box and the bottom of that soffit will extend further into the room than the other 12" x 12" soffits.

I feel much better about the ceiling now, and will not be hesitant to add the extra weight
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post #389 of 597 Old 08-24-2012, 05:59 PM
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It is with hesitation that I bring up HVAC again....but I stumbled across and old post I had read before and it specifically talks about using a Panasonic inline fan to pull air out of the room as "the return" independent of the main HVAC system while running two 6" supplies into the room for supply. Here's the full post with the data and results:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/952113/black-cat-theater-now-going-big/30#post_21610412

However, BigMouthInDC just posted what he needed to do to make that fan quiet:
"Over on the Black Cat theater thread thread we had some challenges with a 6 inch version of that fan. Even with the fan connected to the theater with 15 ft of TRUE acoustical duct the transition of the 6 inch duct into Linacoustic lined box which opened into the theater was too noisy due to the velocity of the air and other pipe to box transitional noise effects. We ended up transitioning the 6 to an 8 inch duct and dumping into a refrigerator sized serpentine box on the supply side. And a coffin sized box on the return."

Just thought I would share as food for thought. I know you have your plan now which involves 100% of the HVAC system, which I think is always the right way to go when you have the option during the building process, but an interesting post on the alternative nonetheless.
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post #390 of 597 Old 08-24-2012, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh no...not HVAC again....lol

I will take a look. I am always open to improvement or fresh ideas. I had originally spec'd a Panasonic in-line fan to exhaust the hush box. But I have since decided to go with the cool cube here

http://www.activethermal.com/page33.html

A bit more pricey but a fine solution I think.
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