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post #481 of 609 Old 08-16-2013, 07:20 PM
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Do you have an idea what is happening between 100 and 200Hz? I was figuring it might be related to some vertical room modes and I'm interested to see if there is prolonged decay associated with the peak in that region. Do you have data to get at that?
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post #482 of 609 Old 08-17-2013, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Do you have an idea what is happening between 100 and 200Hz? I was figuring it might be related to some vertical room modes and I'm interested to see if there is prolonged decay associated with the peak in that region. Do you have data to get at that?

I looked at the waterfall and between 100-200Hz is gone by 300ms. Looks very good.
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post #483 of 609 Old 08-17-2013, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Possibly due to the ceiling height?
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post #484 of 609 Old 08-17-2013, 07:17 AM
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That was my hunch, but I'm not so sure at this point. Assuming you were measuring near 48 inches up, try near 30 for comparison.

SBIR due to reflections from walls near the speakers would be my next hunch, but I thought you had good absorption on those surfaces already.

Of course, don't let me make you chase it if you can't hear it or don't care.
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post #485 of 609 Old 08-17-2013, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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So I took measurements with the mic at different heights:

money%2520seat%2520mic%2520heights.png

Some things change.. but that peak is not one of them.



Then I measured LCR just to make sure it wasn't a speaker issue (well, if it is, they're all wrong):

money%2520seat%2520lcr.png



The only no-no I am aware of is the LCR are very close to the F20s, so there will be some funk introduced due to that.. What kind of funk is beyond my knowledge.

Tim
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post #486 of 609 Old 08-17-2013, 01:51 PM
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Confirm please for me that the graph you just posted is one speaker for each plot only - no subs.

Does the second row show the same c.150Hz peak? I can't be sure from the plots from yesterday, but I don't think so.
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post #487 of 609 Old 08-17-2013, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Confirm please for me that the graph you just posted is one speaker for each plot only - no subs.

Does the second row show the same c.150Hz peak? I can't be sure from the plots from yesterday, but I don't think so.

Those are with subs. I did take a measurement with the subs off.. it was exactly the same in that range.

front%2520row%2520no%2520eq.png


front%2520vs%2520rear.png
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post #488 of 609 Old 08-17-2013, 03:24 PM
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So the peak is the same magnitude, but lower frequency when measured in the second row. I'm still new to this, but I think this means you need to clean up the reflections from surfaces within 3-4 feet of the speakers. So that's probably either the wall behind, the front of the F20s or the floor or ceiling.
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post #489 of 609 Old 08-17-2013, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

So the peak is the same magnitude, but lower frequency when measured in the second row. I'm still new to this, but I think this means you need to clean up the reflections from surfaces within 3-4 feet of the speakers. So that's probably either the wall behind, the front of the F20s or the floor or ceiling.

Ok, thanks!

I went to pick up the 2" fiberglass board I ordered, but it wasn't in yet. We'll have to wait until next weekend to know for sure!

Tim
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post #490 of 609 Old 08-17-2013, 06:29 PM
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Thanks for the GRX-TVI info. Ker-klunk, got it. Will be located inside a kitchen cabinet, far from sleeping people, but still a concern.

Does it run hot? Can I muffle it inside an enclosure, wrapped in fiberglass, inside the kitchen cabinet?

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post #491 of 609 Old 08-18-2013, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

Thanks for the GRX-TVI info. Ker-klunk, got it. Will be located inside a kitchen cabinet, far from sleeping people, but still a concern.

Does it run hot? Can I muffle it inside an enclosure, wrapped in fiberglass, inside the kitchen cabinet?

No, It doesn't run hot. I have it in a closet in the theater (GG and door seals) and don't hear it. If it's possible, you can remote locate it and still have the transformer for the LEDs in the kitchen cabinet. You just need to run the 120v and 2-wire control cable from the TVI to the transformer.

Tim
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post #492 of 609 Old 08-24-2013, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Progress. I got the thermostat hooked up and tested, so the theater now has it's own thermostat. It's in parallel with the other stat in the basement, so either can call for cool. I locked it at "Cool Only", so hopefully I won't have dueling stats (one calling for heat, the other cool). I have all of my stats in the house on manual changeover, which should also help.

Finished the second bass trap in the rear. Two layers of R-30 which gives me a trap 16x24.

Many roller catches installed.

The To-Do List:

-connect the smoke alarm to the panel
-finish the roller catches (one speaker cover and the screen wall panels)
-finish the door seals on the rear closet
-IR repeater would be good.. but not on my short list
-acoustic panels (2" board should be here this week)


We've been really enjoying the theater. Watched Bourne Legacy the other night.

Tim
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post #493 of 609 Old 08-24-2013, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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post #494 of 609 Old 08-24-2013, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

I also got XBMC up and running in the theater.

I'm running XBMCbuntu 12.2 on my Zotac box, which streams from the UnRaid server.

I also installed the Cinema Experience add-on, which allows me to start with trivia slides, followed by trailers streamed from the web, intro clips, audio clips etc. Pretty cool. Just press one button and it runs. It will even do an intermission if you want it to.

I also installed XBMC Remote on my android tablet. SO far, it works flawlessly. No lag and everything works as expected. This is why the IR control really isn't high on my list. THe only thing that needs IR is the projector and the Grafik Eye and at this point I'm happy to just deal with it. Global Cache is in the works but I don't have the time to play around with iRule right now.

Tim

THIS is what I have been looking for. If there's one area of my own theater that I haven't explored it's the streaming media clients and their management via third party control. Jon (Timelapse Theater) uses XBMC and says it is the most reliable and robust of all the interfaces.

Definitely bookmarking these links. If you had the time, I'd love to see a few more posts that get into each of these points a bit deeper with the hardware / software setup you are running for your streaming media and control.
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post #495 of 609 Old 08-25-2013, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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THIS is what I have been looking for. If there's one area of my own theater that I haven't explored it's the streaming media clients and their management via third party control. Jon (Timelapse Theater) uses XBMC and says it is the most reliable and robust of all the interfaces.

Definitely bookmarking these links. If you had the time, I'd love to see a few more posts that get into each of these points a bit deeper with the hardware / software setup you are running for your streaming media and control.

I will expand further on the subject once I get a little more familiar with the addon.

I will say that it is not 100% plug and play. Many moons ago I was proficient in *nix (not so much now), and there were some issues to be addressed. For example, the addon installed a folder called "default". It didn't work properly until I renamed it "Default". That's documented in the CE thread, but it's far from an obvious entry.

You will definitely need to get familiar with the debug log.

Don't let that dissuade you from running XBMC.. XBMC is rock solid, never had an issue. The official XBMC Remote on android has also worked without issue.

Tim
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post #496 of 609 Old 08-25-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

I will expand further on the subject once I get a little more familiar with the addon.

I will say that it is not 100% plug and play. Many moons ago I was proficient in *nix (not so much now), and there were some issues to be addressed. For example, the addon installed a folder called "default". It didn't work properly until I renamed it "Default". That's documented in the CE thread, but it's far from an obvious entry.

You will definitely need to get familiar with the debug log.

Don't let that dissuade you from running XBMC.. XBMC is rock solid, never had an issue. The official XBMC Remote on android has also worked without issue.

Tim

If you are not running Yatse app on android instead of the official app, you are doing yourself a disservice.
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post #497 of 609 Old 08-25-2013, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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If you are not running Yatse app on android instead of the official app, you are doing yourself a disservice.

I saw demos of both on YouTube. Some different features, but nothing that was a game changer. Costs me nothing to try out Yatse.. but for a first try I thought the official app was the way to go.

Do you use yatse, and what do you like about it?

Tim
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post #498 of 609 Old 08-25-2013, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

I saw demos of both on YouTube. Some different features, but nothing that was a game changer. Costs me nothing to try out Yatse.. but for a first try I thought the official app was the way to go.

Do you use yatse, and what do you like about it?

Tim
I use Yatse when I'm out in my yard to change music on my deck speakers. I seems much quicker and stable when navigating as my wifi signal starts degrading outside.

What graphics chipset do you have in your Zotac box?
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post #499 of 609 Old 08-26-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

I saw demos of both on YouTube. Some different features, but nothing that was a game changer. Costs me nothing to try out Yatse.. but for a first try I thought the official app was the way to go.

Do you use yatse, and what do you like about it?

Tim

Yatse is much more polished, faster and less buggy. The official app is not awful, just not as good as Yatse. Yatse on the tablet is gorgeous. Not a game changer, just a bit better at the same cost wink.gif
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post #500 of 609 Old 08-26-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

You need to hang out in the HTPC forum more wink.gif

MediaBrowser also has plugins for trivia, you can even do intros (like your own custom intro) and you can also do previews. There's plenty of plugins to download fresh ones all the time, or you can run custom ones.

One guy has trivia asking questions about his build I saw - I thought that was cool. Example: How many tubes of Green glue did it take to complete this theater ? Lol.

That is freaking awesome! I wish that I could do that with my PCH.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #501 of 609 Old 08-26-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

THIS is what I have been looking for. If there's one area of my own theater that I haven't explored it's the streaming media clients and their management via third party control. Jon (Timelapse Theater) uses XBMC and says it is the most reliable and robust of all the interfaces.

Definitely bookmarking these links. If you had the time, I'd love to see a few more posts that get into each of these points a bit deeper with the hardware / software setup you are running for your streaming media and control.

You need to hang out in the HTPC forum more wink.gif

MediaBrowser also has plugins for trivia, you can even do intros (like your own custom intro) and you can also do previews. There's plenty of plugins to download fresh ones all the time, or you can run custom ones.

One guy has trivia asking questions about his build I saw - I thought that was cool. Example: How many tubes of Green glue did it take to complete this theater ? Lol.

Mediabrowser3 is in beta right now, but's it's likely to be a game changer. It has support for 4k upconversion via MadVR plugins, and you should be able to do better subtitles, as well as better upconversion, frame rates, and general PQ. It's still beta testing but it looks like it will also support SVP 60frame interpolation (like the fancy high end TV sets and 4k projectors do)
SVP



MadVR is upconversion software, and it can provide better PQ than most upconversion DVD players, AVR or Projectors can do (even the ones with fancy chips eek.gif )

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1477339/so-youve-built-your-htpc-now-what-is-next-how-to-get-the-ultimate-picture-and-sound-quality-from-your-htpc-madvr-svp-xbmc-mediabrowser-jriver/0_100


Honestly XBMC is great software- but if your noob and starting fresh I would look into just starting on MediaBrowser3 at this point. It's more modern and robust than XBMC, and if your going to go through the learning curve I think you would be better served learning MB3 since it's got a better design behind it. It's not just promising to be slicker, but it's lightweight and it's now a 2 part software application. There is a server client program that runs on your server or NAS, and then there is a front end client that can run on anything- including iOS, Android, Linux or Windows. The player in MB3 appears to superior to XBMC in that you can do reclock (perfect 24p frame rates and sync audio) MadVR for 480p or 720p >1080p or even 4k, SVP for better frame rates etc...

XBMC is good, but it's a modest solution. I am not sure how technical people want to get, but after watching the pain staking effort that goes into a theater build, calibration the audio and video, picking out nice equiptment etc... I think there might be some advantage in the small bit of extra you can get- especially if your starting fresh. XBMC is only popular because it's free, and it's been around a long time. It's the choice for running when people don't want to spend any $$$ , including $$ on an OS to install it on.

Also- MB3 offers transcoding on the fly. So you can do a lot with that. Example: You have all your 1080p bluray movies stored on your movie server for instance access, but the full 1080p resolutions and HD audio is too much for your tablet, your iphone or android cell phone- and it's too big to go over WIFI without playing choppy. You can on the fly transcode the 1080p and 7.1 audio mix down to 480p and stereo on the fly and serve it out to the clients like a tablet or smartphone. 480p and stereo works much better on a cell phone- and you can even send it out over the internet. So if you are traveling or away and want to watch a movie on your laptop or cell phone you can do that from a movie you have at home. It's pretty cool (XBMC can't really do this )

720p works good on laptops and 480p works good on cell phones. Most home internet is too slow to allow you to upload and stream full bit rate 1080p bluray (50mbps speed) but can easily do 720p or 480p in stereo.

If you have a reasonable budget ($500-$1000) for an HTPC the sky is really the limit and you can do a lot with an HTPC, including not just looking slick but offering superior PQ and SQ like HD audio, and 1080p upconversion or higher/better frame rates. My HTPC looks just as good as my high end blu ray player- you could not tell the difference - unless of coarse I turned on SVP wink.gif

Just a warning though- SVP is not for the modest system. It will crush a dual core CPU, and you really need a quad core + video card. But that is the only "heavy" application, the rest can run on dual core no problem including MadVR.

Another cool feature is you can launch a video playing from any location. So for example I am sitting here on my PC surfing AVS and typing to you- and my wife is crying in the living room because she wants to watch something but can't find it (like Breaking Bad from Sunday night) I can actually with a couple clicks launch it playing for her on the living room system. WIFI remotes are great becaues they have great range, do not require line of sight- and are fast. There is a Mediabrowser3 Ap for Iphone and Android, that also allows you do launch or browse media from your phone and launch on your system or HTPC.

I think this functionality has some excited advanced things to come down the pipe in the next 6 months- and if you wanted to dedicate something like and Android tablet or Ipad to your theater as a remote control you will be able to do and control everything- including browsing media or movies while another movie is still playing on the screen and launching or changing it when you find what you want to watch instead.

Some cool stuff.

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post #502 of 609 Old 08-26-2013, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

You need to hang out in the HTPC forum more wink.gif

MediaBrowser also has plugins for trivia, you can even do intros (like your own custom intro) and you can also do previews. There's plenty of plugins to download fresh ones all the time, or you can run custom ones.

One guy has trivia asking questions about his build I saw - I thought that was cool. Example: How many tubes of Green glue did it take to complete this theater ? Lol.

That is freaking awesome! I wish that I could do that with the PCH A400! mad.gif

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #503 of 609 Old 08-26-2013, 06:38 PM
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That is freaking awesome! I wish that I could do that with the PCH A400! mad.gif

I don't have much experience with pre built media servers like popcorn hour so I can't help you there.

How much is one of those bad boys ? You can build a HTPC for $200 these days, and you can build a full media server for $250 (minus hard drives) that will scale to 20TB of storage. You can also buy 3TB hard drives for $80-$99 on sale at Staples or Costco.

There is a learning curve to it- but the results are spectacular and the value is clearly there for most people. Like building a theater- if you can build it yourself it's going to cost a lot less than if you hire a pro.

BTW assassin just made his HTPC and server guides free this week:

http://assassinhtpcblog.com/

That is to HTPC like Denis Erksine making his theater plans free to this forum eek.gif

The other PRO's might not care so much (assuming they are really a pro) but the beginners and normal folks would find a tremendous amount of value in them.

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post #504 of 609 Old 08-27-2013, 01:33 AM
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Mfusik - thanks for the links. Admittedly, I put streaming media clients on my own personal "back burner" until I was ready to make equipment purchases. I don't mind spending a bit more on the hardware because it will be my primary media viewing vehicle. An Oppo Bluray player will be present, but with a distributed AV system it is WAY more convenient to have rips on-tap. I have a Synology DS-1812+ NAS which I intend to load with 3TB drives, or 4TB drives if the pricing has come down sufficiently by the time of purchase.

I can handle my own with networking, so I'm not a complete noob. Even still, I realize there is a lot to learn from folks out there with the setup of their systems, Mr. Tim's included. The only main difference I see is that I will need something that can be easily integrated within third party home automation systems to make things as convenient as possible (i.e. Wife usefulness factor!).

Thanks for the additional links. I've bookmarked them for future reference.

Mr. Tim - can't wait to see your system design in a bit more detail when you have the time, including some long-awaited screen shots!
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post #505 of 609 Old 08-27-2013, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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mf makes good points. I've used XBMC for years, so I'm comfortable with it. I originally (and continue) ran XBMC on some old Xbox's I picked up for $50. They do 720p (although when I started I had plain old tube TVs). Now I have LCDs and they work great.

With the advent of Rasperry Pi you can run XBMC frontends on a $50 solution with HDMI.

XBMC is open source, so anybody can develop for it.

XBMC server runs on linux, so you don't need to purchase a windows license.

I never used MB3, so I can't speak to it's functionality. It sounds like a great product.

I use Firefox and OpenOffice.. so you can see where my principles are smile.gif

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post #506 of 609 Old 08-27-2013, 07:15 AM
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That's the major complaint about media browser was you had to pay for some features. $2 here, 4$ there....

Felt like you got nickel and dimed.

Once I spent the cash (I'm probably near $20) I looked back and realized it was actually worth it. I enjoyed the cover art, music support , game browser etc...

But I can see and appreciate your angle.

Plex is another great solution that is very much like XBMC but has some advancements too. If you like XBMC you might love plex. Some use it side by side with XBMC for transcoding to devices, while the main system runs XBMC.

At the end of the day you can actually install and test sure by side Plex, MB, and XBMC on the same machine. They can install and coexist perfectly. That's usually the best way to figure out what you like. They all have something good about them IMO

This forum would be concerned with the tablet and remote control options (there are many) and the integration.

My main point was that plex and media browser 3 now use a server program that should respond really well to integration and control options- and that unless you want to use external player XBMC player doesn't support the advanced picture quality stuff. Lots of XBMC users configure to use external players like MPC-HC so they can use MADVR or reclock or SVP. That's option too if you like XBMC , but want the increased functionality.

At this point it's still close and media browser 3 is only in beta, and the "Theater" stand alone product isn't released yet. XBMC is old and established with a huge base if users because its free and old. It's too close to call the race yet, but I'd expect 6 months from now the mb3 product to be operating in a place XBMC can't go. I don't see XBMC catching up anytime soon either , the users and developers are more interested in ordinary joe features, or features that improve your experience at copy infringing a lot more than them seem interested in stuff like perfect picture and sound. There's a technical programing aspect and an enthusiast aspect that's currently fueling the MB3 project and its just the sort if thing an AVSer could love.

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post #507 of 609 Old 08-27-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

That's the major complaint about media browser was you had to pay for some features. $2 here, 4$ there....
Felt like you got nickel and dimed.

I think you've got that a bit wrong. The biggest downside for me would be the requirement to use Windows vs XBMC being mostly platform agnostic. $ cost isn't necessarily the primary issue. I'm more comfortable with running XBMC on a Linux foundation. I'd probably be more apt to play around with MB if it were also able to run on Linux.

Also, it sounds like you may be basing some of your opinions of XBMC on old data. I don't really see the capabillity gaps in the XBMC control and integration side:
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Another cool feature is you can launch a video playing from any location. So for example I am sitting here on my PC surfing AVS and typing to you- and my wife is crying in the living room because she wants to watch something but can't find it (like Breaking Bad from Sunday night) I can actually with a couple clicks launch it playing for her on the living room system. WIFI remotes are great becaues they have great range, do not require line of sight- and are fast. There is a Mediabrowser3 Ap for Iphone and Android, that also allows you do launch or browse media from your phone and launch on your system or HTPC.

I think this functionality has some excited advanced things to come down the pipe in the next 6 months- and if you wanted to dedicate something like and Android tablet or Ipad to your theater as a remote control you will be able to do and control everything- including browsing media or movies while another movie is still playing on the screen and launching or changing it when you find what you want to watch instead.

XBMC does all that stuff too, unless you are referring to some nuanced way in which MB does something better (I don't know- I haven't tried MB).

I've been using XBMC on low end ION hardware on my main TV for a few years. My only complaints are some PVR feature kinks that I need to work out, and the fact that my hardware doesn't do some of the better scaling and interlacing options well. When I get the theater up and running I'll definitely dedicate some more capable hardware and possibly look into alternate players (MPC-HC, etc) that can take advantage of the video quality enhancements for the new bigger screen.

In the theater setup with a touch panel or tablet control, I'd think that it would be more user friendly to just use the tablet device for all of the media browsing and navigation, using the PJ screen only as an actual video display. I'd be curious to see how others are handling that. I don't think I'm a fan of just using a tablet as a big soft-remote (up, down, enter, exit types of functions). You might as well just stick with a hard remote to avoid the need to look back and forth between the tablet and the screen for every button press.
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post #508 of 609 Old 08-27-2013, 09:14 AM
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I would like to thank you guys for giving me one more thing to research and waste time at work. wink.gif
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post #509 of 609 Old 08-27-2013, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by xjagox View Post

I think you've got that a bit wrong. The biggest downside for me would be the requirement to use Windows vs XBMC being mostly platform agnostic. $ cost isn't necessarily the primary issue. I'm more comfortable with running XBMC on a Linux foundation. I'd probably be more apt to play around with MB if it were also able to run on Linux.

Also, it sounds like you may be basing some of your opinions of XBMC on old data. I don't really see the capabillity gaps in the XBMC control and integration side:
XBMC does all that stuff too, unless you are referring to some nuanced way in which MB does something better (I don't know- I haven't tried MB).

I've been using XBMC on low end ION hardware on my main TV for a few years. My only complaints are some PVR feature kinks that I need to work out, and the fact that my hardware doesn't do some of the better scaling and interlacing options well. When I get the theater up and running I'll definitely dedicate some more capable hardware and possibly look into alternate players (MPC-HC, etc) that can take advantage of the video quality enhancements for the new bigger screen.

In the theater setup with a touch panel or tablet control, I'd think that it would be more user friendly to just use the tablet device for all of the media browsing and navigation, using the PJ screen only as an actual video display. I'd be curious to see how others are handling that. I don't think I'm a fan of just using a tablet as a big soft-remote (up, down, enter, exit types of functions). You might as well just stick with a hard remote to avoid the need to look back and forth between the tablet and the screen for every button press.

You are thinking about Mediabrowser2 - and from years back.

Mediabrowser3 is going to be a game changer. You can run it outside windows if that is your thing. Personally the windows platform is the only "proper" way to do HTPC IMO. Your not going to be able to do all the advanced subtitles, on fly HD audio track changing, MadVR, SVP, Reclock for perfect 24p frame rates, and such without it as a base. There is just too much advanced support for Windows x64 7 or 8 at this point- and so much of the really good stuff about HTPC is geared towards the windows platform. I understand people don't want to spend $50 on a windows license - I get that. But sometimes you have to pay to play.

I just took a mortgage to build a 34x22 theater - so I can spend a couple hundred bucks on quality software if I need. I know the approach from the "free" standpoint is attractive and it's why so many people look down on Mediabrowser, or even windows. But this is a core decision that will vary by consumer and there is no right or wrong answer. At the enthusiast level you often find around AVS I find people are willing to go that little extra to reap the most possible, XBMC is probably more main stream.

You mention low end hardware so now I know exactly where you are coming from, and for you - you are right.

I find mediabrowser (the old one) prefers a more robust HTPC ( SSD drive + decent CPU) - but the new MB3 will run on anything. Including Android, OpenELEC, or Linux. There will be independent version of MB3 that run outside windows, and the MB3 Theater is like XBMC in that it runs as a stand alone outside of WMC or windows. It supports all the goodies for picture and sound quality too.

I think re-clock is critical for good frame rates and perfect sync audio.

I am talking about an experience on a $750 HTPC that is minimum i5 CPU with SSD, 8GB DDR3 (not the slow crap) and a Radeon 7790 or higher GPU. Your not going to run all the goodies on an openELEC or linux platform with a RasPi wink.gif

SVP alone will crush an i3 CPU into brutal submission. No dual core stands a chance.

Give SVP a shot and install and try it free if your curious

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post #510 of 609 Old 08-27-2013, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Frankly, I don't know half the terms you guys are using. biggrin.gif Maybe some day I'll try MB3 but for right now XBMC does what I need it to do. No sense reinventing the wheel at my house.. at least not at the moment. I do appreciate the info though.

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