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post #1 of 30 Old 08-27-2012, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all long time lurker after 36 years in the Army I am finally hanging it up for the younger guys and going to have our retirement home built next year. Unfortunately there are no basements in my area due to nearby ponds and water tables. There is room in the rafter area of the second floor to build my theater. I will just tweak the media room on the current floor plan. I have been reviewing a lot of build threads and believe I know what I want so here goes. Acoustically what size would be the best to support 2 foot screen wall with 2 rows of seats. I am looking at doing a screen similar to Brad in Pimp My Garage Theater CIA-ish format screen - 136" wide, 64" high. 2.35 goes full width, 16:9 goes full height. His theater is 17x23. I will go with a 9ft height. I will have the builder adjust the position and size so that there will be no slope walls. I will be using whisper clips with DW/GG/DW I may also use the acoustical mat on the floor with floating subfloor/GG/OSB. Of course a riser and stage OSB/GG/OSB. I was hoping that Tom, Bpape, Big and Dennis would chime in on my build. Specifically what is the best size LxWxH to get really great sound for two rows of 4 chairs.


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post #2 of 30 Old 08-27-2012, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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post #3 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 07:25 AM
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For a second floor, you'll want the Serenity Mat on the floor. You have to decouple from that initial subfloor. Then build the 4 walls and ceiling in a decoupled fashion. Pay attention to the ventilation, as this is often overlooked and harder to deal with later

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post #4 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 09:44 AM
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Not theater related, but the revised angle of the games/billiards wing looks a little awkward. From a curb-appeal standpoint, the first layout provides a more open front elevation, with a much nicer approach to your front door. The revised layout will make your entry feel cramped.

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post #5 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cw5billwade View Post

I was hoping that Tom, Bpape, Big and Dennis would chime in on my build. Specifically what is the best size LxWxH to get really great sound for two rows of 4 chairs.
I'm not an expert on size versus sound, but I think you are on the right track with a 17x22 room for two rows of 4 seats. However, I'm not wild about your door placement unless you can do a step up to riser height outside the theater. Some people would point out that an out-swing door into a narrow hallway could become a death trap if something fell in front of the door.


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post #6 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

For a second floor, you'll want the Serenity Mat on the floor. You have to decouple from that initial subfloor. Then build the 4 walls and ceiling in a decoupled fashion. Pay attention to the ventilation, as this is often overlooked and harder to deal with later
I have been reading the information on your web site. When the time comes sometime next year I will call you so that we can plan all of this out

. I was looking at something like Bacon Race (Damelon) or Sandman's



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post #7 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

Not theater related, but the revised angle of the games/billiards wing looks a little awkward. From a curb-appeal standpoint, the first layout provides a more open front elevation, with a much nicer approach to your front door. The revised layout will make your entry feel cramped.
There was a large studio with bath which I do not need so I eliminated the space from the plan. I understand what you mean but it is still more open than most houses that just have the garage making a L shape with the front of the house.


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post #8 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I'm not an expert on size versus sound, but I think you are on the right track with a 17x22 room for two rows of 4 seats. However, I'm not wild about your door placement unless you can do a step up to riser height outside the theater. Some people would point out that an out-swing door into a narrow hallway could become a death trap if something fell in front of the door.
I was originaly going to go up two steps in the hall way at the top of the landing than the whole hall will be riser height. Makes it harder with the attic storage and media room. So it is better to swing the door into the room? I was thinking sound wise it would be easier to sound proof the entrance if it was detached from the drywall. Nothing will be in the hall way to fall over that I could think of. Do you give a military discount and would you travel to GA once my house is built? (one could hope)


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post #9 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 04:00 PM
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My rates are already at AARP discounted levels, and yes I would come to GA.


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post #10 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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My rates are already at AARP discounted levels, and yes I would come to GA.
LOL I really like a lot of the builds you have been doing


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post #11 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 05:42 PM
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So it is better to swing the door into the room? I was thinking sound wise it would be easier to sound proof the entrance if it was detached from the drywall. Nothing will be in the hall way to fall over that I could think of.
Apart from the possible code issue relating to fire that BIG has pointed out (I don't know what the code is actually), consider the sound issues from a different perspective. The door will be directly assaulted by the sounds inside. If it hangs from the outside wall, it couples the inside sounds to the outer wall surfaces, transmitting them into the rest of the house. If there were especially loud sounds or house-wide vibrations you were trying to dampen, I think the argument might be reversed - though I am no expert in this.

Without invading your personal privacy, if possible - what part of Georgia are you in?

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post #12 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Apart from the possible code issue relating to fire that BIG has pointed out (I don't know what the code is actually), consider the sound issues from a different perspective. The door will be directly assaulted by the sounds inside. If it hangs from the outside wall, it couples the inside sounds to the outer wall surfaces, transmitting them into the rest of the house. If there were especially loud sounds or house-wide vibrations you were trying to dampen, I think the argument might be reversed - though I am no expert in this.
Without invading your personal privacy, if possible - what part of Georgia are you in?
Fred
Right now I am actually stationed in Hawaii its a tough job but someone has to do it LOL. I will be reassigned to Fort Gordon GA from which I will retire. I have 5 acres of land in Appling GA. The Army has been good to me and my family but it is time to leave it to the younger kids. Three of our children live in the Augusta with a total of 9 grandchildren. We are really looking forward to the move.


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post #13 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 07:19 PM
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Sometimes you just have to do an out-swinging door, but if you have the room to swing in it really is a safety issue. Lets say you have an upright vacuum sitting outside the theater and a dog/child knocks it over. Remember this is going to be a windowless room.


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post #14 of 30 Old 08-28-2012, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I can pull off 2 steps up to a landing after my media room door which is the orange square by moving my attic access into the billiard room through a walk in closet. If I swing the door in what about base traps in corners or can I use the riser and soffits for that purpose. Also given 22 or 23 ft length what size door do you recommend? I went with 36" to make it easier to get stuff in. Since the theater will be unfinished when we take position wanting the contractor to hang the door was the other reason.


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post #15 of 30 Old 08-29-2012, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

For a second floor, you'll want the Serenity Mat on the floor. You have to decouple from that initial subfloor. Then build the 4 walls and ceiling in a decoupled fashion. Pay attention to the ventilation, as this is often overlooked and harder to deal with later
Tom I have a question on the Serenity Mat when it comes to my stage and riser. Ignoring the nailed hard wood top layer in your pictures below should I build my stage and riser right on the serenity mat or on the first layer of 3/4" T&G (option 2)


or on top of both layers of 3/4" T&G (option 1)



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post #16 of 30 Old 08-29-2012, 05:21 PM
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CW, IMHO you would want it on a layer of something over the mat otherwise the framing of the stage and riser would create concentrated loads and crush the mat.


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post #17 of 30 Old 08-29-2012, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
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CW, IMHO you would want it on a layer of something over the mat otherwise the framing of the stage and riser would create concentrated loads and crush the mat.
two layers of 3/4" T&G like option 1 or one layer like option 2 separated by roofing felt? Then put a second layer between the stage and riser.


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post #18 of 30 Old 08-30-2012, 06:18 AM
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You could do it either way, but as Big said, the wall weight will compress the mat to a point where there is no longer resilience and so the hope of isolating the wall from the subfloor will be largely unrealized. I'd rather build the walls, then install the mat in the remaining floor area.

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post #19 of 30 Old 08-30-2012, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Tom I was talking about building the stage and riser on the mat not the walls. I will decouple the walls with whisper clips and doing the floor to wall transition disused on your site. so option 2on how to sound proof a floor than using your floor to wall transition then building the stage and riser decoupled from the walls.



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post #20 of 30 Old 08-30-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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My original question to the forum given a clean slate what is the best size room for Acoustics having 2 rows of four seats, 2 ft screen wall with 120 to 144 inch wide AT screen with a stage and 12" high riser. Please give minimum size with either 9 ft or 10 ft ceiling. ( may want to put bar height table behind second row but that is not a requirement)


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post #21 of 30 Old 08-31-2012, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I was think originaly 24x18x9 but saw where numbers should not be multiples of each other. 9 goes into 18 and 6 goes into both 24 and 18. so what size will I need for best sound?


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post #22 of 30 Old 08-31-2012, 01:11 PM
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My thoughts on the best room dimensions issue go like this:

There really is no such thing. Theoretically, there are some rooms that are bad, and some that are less bad. Let's assume you can trust the room mode calculator. http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm Working from this you should prefer room dimensions that have regularly spaced (logarithmic, by octave) modes of as near the same power as possible, such that none stand out too much.

According to the calculator I linked, I would say you have fairly even distribution of low magnitude modes. It looks good to me. But I'm no expert.


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post #23 of 30 Old 08-31-2012, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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that made my head hurt that is why I wanted some experts to chime in so I can get my final building plans for my house to my builder.


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post #24 of 30 Old 08-31-2012, 08:49 PM
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Go as wide as you can! If ceiling height will dictate width then you will have to choose how many rows you want. I have 10' ceilings with three rows and wish they were 12' or higher. I have an 18' wide room and wish it was wider lol.

And, spend the $600 to have Dennis draw you a set of plans! Best investment I ever made and will be asking him to make me a set of ceiling plans as well.

And, make sure your HVAC plans are good to go before construction starts. I went over the plans with my HVAC guy many times and then when it came time to install the duct work he was more confused than when I first showed him the plans.
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post #25 of 30 Old 08-31-2012, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
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that made my head hurt that is why I wanted some experts to chime in so I can get my final building plans for my house to my builder.

I've seen SierraMikeBravo and I believe Dennis as well post that you should not give up square footage trying to find some perfect set of dimensions. At the risk of taking what they've said out of context, you're better off building as large a room as you can, and then dealing with the bass later (multiple subs etc.)

I've always wondered about that rule of multiples. I think it gets tough to predict room modes once the room is no longer an empty box. Once you add a riser, a stage, and soffits, your room isnt a box anymore. On top of that, all those things are absorbing energy as well. Where does your room mode end up if the wall flexes?

At any rate, my .02 is to build it as big as you can, add subs to taste smile.gif

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!


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post #26 of 30 Old 09-01-2012, 03:18 AM
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In residential sized rooms (even IMAX sized), you're going to have modal response in the room ... regardless of the room's physical dimensions. You need to fit the room to meet your requirements for screen size, seats, comfort and the like (keeping all seats a minimum of 3' from a wall). You're going to need to deal with modal response no matter what you do ... dealing with modal response in a room that you're not happy with is much less fun. Don't get the idea that building a room to some magic ratio is going prevent modal response.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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post #27 of 30 Old 09-01-2012, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Go as wide as you can! If ceiling height will dictate width then you will have to choose how many rows you want. I have 10' ceilings with three rows and wish they were 12' or higher. I have an 18' wide room and wish it was wider lol.
And, spend the $600 to have Dennis draw you a set of plans! Best investment I ever made and will be asking him to make me a set of ceiling plans as well.
And, make sure your HVAC plans are good to go before construction starts. I went over the plans with my HVAC guy many times and then when it came time to install the duct work he was more confused than when I first showed him the plans.
Did the $600 include HVAC plan as well?

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I've seen SierraMikeBravo and I believe Dennis as well post that you should not give up square footage trying to find some perfect set of dimensions. At the risk of taking what they've said out of context, you're better off building as large a room as you can, and then dealing with the bass later (multiple subs etc.)
I've always wondered about that rule of multiples. I think it gets tough to predict room modes once the room is no longer an empty box. Once you add a riser, a stage, and soffits, your room isnt a box anymore. On top of that, all those things are absorbing energy as well. Where does your room mode end up if the wall flexes?
At any rate, my .02 is to build it as big as you can, add subs to taste smile.gif
I was wondering the same thing myself if 18' wide with whisper clips and DDGG you will be losing 6" of the width. and the stage and riser will effect volume as well.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

In residential sized rooms (even IMAX sized), you're going to have modal response in the room ... regardless of the room's physical dimensions. You need to fit the room to meet your requirements for screen size, seats, comfort and the like (keeping all seats a minimum of 3' from a wall). You're going to need to deal with modal response no matter what you do ... dealing with modal response in a room that you're not happy with is much less fun. Don't get the idea that building a room to some magic ratio is going prevent modal response.
would it be best to just have them build the largest room they can which will not be detrimined until they are in the framing phase of the build or give the builder a size to shoot for?


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post #28 of 30 Old 09-01-2012, 04:17 PM
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Did the $600 include HVAC plan as well?

would it be best to just have them build the largest room they can which will not be detrimined until they are in the framing phase of the build or give the builder a size to shoot for?

No, Dennis' service did not include the HVAC plan. That was put together by me from reading on here.

Thats what I would do! Just have them build it as wide as possible. But like I said earlier, if the width will dictate the height then you need to decide how many rows you really want. Like in the back of the theater if there is a third row and a 9' ceiling with soffits making it even lower then you'll need to make sure you'll be happy with that height back there. Hope that made some sense as to what I'm getting at. I have 10' ceilings and 3 rows. My back row is just over 8' to the ceiling but the soffit is 13" tall so it seems really low back there. And if the third row is a bar then you will be sitting at an even higher height (most likely) which would make it seem even lower.
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post #29 of 30 Old 09-01-2012, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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But like I said earlier, if the width will dictate the height then you need to decide how many rows you really want. Like in the back of the theater if there is a third row and a 9' ceiling with soffits making it even lower then you'll need to make sure you'll be happy with that height back there. Hope that made some sense as to what I'm getting at. I have 10' ceilings and 3 rows. My back row is just over 8' to the ceiling but the soffit is 13" tall so it seems really low back there. And if the third row is a bar then you will be sitting at an even higher height (most likely) which would make it seem even lower.
yes I think so 9' ceiling with 12" riser and 12" or so soffit would be the same as you about 7' from floor to under soffit. If I get the length I would probably put either a bar height table and chairs which we already have or make a bar behind the 2nd row I would not want another 12" of riser without 10' ceiling. I am afraid a 10' ceiling would limit my width and length unless I was willing to have sloping walls under the soffit which I guess would be doable.


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post #30 of 30 Old 09-01-2012, 09:17 PM
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Yeah, having the bar on the same height riser would help for sure. That would probably be your best option. Just have the framers build the room as wide as possible without knee walls and you can then have your plans made from there.
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