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post #271 of 1811 Old 10-21-2013, 06:21 PM
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You have to think like a machine to understand what it's doing. It's set up to maximize your gear, over as many seats as you feed it. That means two things: one, it will try to avoid driving your gear beyond its limits; two, it will compromise one listening position for the good of all of them. Said another way, Audyssey wants everyone in the room to have good sound, but it's not going to let anyone have really bad sound, or let you bottom out your sub.

So, when one or more of the mic positions comes up with a significant drop in SPL, the program has to assume that the sub has given all it can. If other positions don't have the roll off that one position might, it has to play it safe and pull back the signal so that it's not trying to push more than the sub can deliver. That explains the roll off.

The manual set up can be prioritized with more nuance and practicality, knowing what the gear is capable of.

As far as improving it, more subs is the solution. The only good way to even the response among the positions, and therefore allow Audyssey to correct all of them at once (because they all respond the same way to the calibration settings, and they all need the same settings) is with more subs. They don't all need to deliver as much as the S2, but you need lots of them (3 might do it, but 4 would be better). Also, you need to be careful that they all have the same (approximately) headroom, so that they can take the boost that Audyssey might give them. I'm not an Audyssey expert, so there may be other considerations based on details of the program I'm not familiar with - but more subs to even response among the seating position will be critical to getting good response at the money seat without having bad response elsewhere.
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post #272 of 1811 Old 10-21-2013, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

You have to think like a machine to understand what it's doing. It's set up to maximize your gear, over as many seats as you feed it. That means two things: one, it will try to avoid driving your gear beyond its limits; two, it will compromise one listening position for the good of all of them. Said another way, Audyssey wants everyone in the room to have good sound, but it's not going to let anyone have really bad sound, or let you bottom out your sub.

So, when one or more of the mic positions comes up with a significant drop in SPL, the program has to assume that the sub has given all it can. If other positions don't have the roll off that one position might, it has to play it safe and pull back the signal so that it's not trying to push more than the sub can deliver. That explains the roll off.

The manual set up can be prioritized with more nuance and practicality, knowing what the gear is capable of.

As far as improving it, more subs is the solution. The only good way to even the response among the positions, and therefore allow Audyssey to correct all of them at once (because they all respond the same way to the calibration settings, and they all need the same settings) is with more subs. They don't all need to deliver as much as the S2, but you need lots of them (3 might do it, but 4 would be better). Also, you need to be careful that they all have the same (approximately) headroom, so that they can take the boost that Audyssey might give them. I'm not an Audyssey expert, so there may be other considerations based on details of the program I'm not familiar with - but more subs to even response among the seating position will be critical to getting good response at the money seat without having bad response elsewhere.

You are absolutely right.............................

Problem-solving for more than two subs is the issue..............

At one point I was set to place two leveling subs in front row columns and I wired for such....................but after measurements, seems the small 10" Triad subs wont do the job. Since I don't want to cut into the columns again ......not because of hassle, but due to esthetics..............I'm still pondering best practices for implementing 3-4 subs. I really like the look of the room now and don't want to change things............besides, the drivers would be almost directly aligned with ears due to electrician placing 20 amp outlet at standard height. rolleyes.gif

Since most listening/viewing is done with my wife and I.............we've decided to locate best sound in the front row. My wife now likes sitting next to me and is accustom to the 12 ft screen at 12.5 ft seating position. It took her a while, but now she prefers sitting next to me!

Back to the original point, the real basis for the larger sub in back is to help with the roll off at 30 hz..................Roger was quite positive the back row sub would eliminate the early roll off and would help XT32 from neutering the sub. By all means I'm not an Audyssey expert, but have many years of working with various versions..................now working with REW is another issue, but am feeling more confident using and understanding what exactly I'm reading regard to graphs.

As soon as I have second sub implemented, I'll post before, after graphs.........................maybe in room response of individual subs and then summation of all subs would be better.

Roger has come up with some great ideas regarding house curves for sub and I'm more than excited to implement!!!!! biggrin.gif
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post #273 of 1811 Old 10-22-2013, 12:05 AM
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Is there so good effect in other areas that you feel you need to have Audyssey active? Levels and distances you could set manually. In my neck of the woods, most people I know seems to run their theaters with Audyssey off.

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post #274 of 1811 Old 10-22-2013, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Is there so good effect in other areas that you feel you need to have Audyssey active? Levels and distances you could set manually. In my neck of the woods, most people I know seems to run their theaters with Audyssey off.

That is what I'm contemplating.................currently have XT32 off and feel better about results. But then again, two seats are the focus not seven. Second sub will be soon be on the way........wink.gif
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post #275 of 1811 Old 10-23-2013, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Planning on purchasing a light meter to measure projector this weekend.....................


Does anyone have recommendations? Much appreciated...............................................
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post #276 of 1811 Old 10-23-2013, 05:01 PM
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Are you talking about a meter just for luminance, or a tristimulus colorimeter to measure the color output?
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post #277 of 1811 Old 10-23-2013, 06:03 PM
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There's a word I need to use in a normal conversation one day. Tristimulus colorimeter. Yeah, that'll impress the wife smile.gif

I'll be interested to hear what you end up with (and how much it costs). I'd like to be able to tweak PJ calibration.

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post #278 of 1811 Old 10-23-2013, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Are you talking about a meter just for luminance, or a tristimulus colorimeter to measure the color output?

Huh?

Meter for just luminance.biggrin.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

There's a word I need to use in a normal conversation one day. Tristimulus colorimeter. Yeah, that'll impress the wife smile.gif

I'll be interested to hear what you end up with (and how much it costs). I'd like to be able to tweak PJ calibration.

I just told my wife I needed to purchase a "tristimulus" meter and she stated, "What? That doesn't sound right!"

Thanks Fred and JPA............biggrin.gif


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post #279 of 1811 Old 10-24-2013, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Light meter recommendations? Brand .....source.........?

Would appreciate reliable/ accurate meter! biggrin.gif
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post #280 of 1811 Old 10-24-2013, 04:57 PM
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My first thought was, b&h(note that flash meters are not generally the same as light meters). I would think most anything they sell is worth having - but you have to make sure it's suited to your uses. I looked at the prices and think you can spend about the same and get a colorimeter and software which will do a lot more.

There doesn't seem to be a comparable DIY how-to here at AVS, but I think this one is very thorough and introduces all the basics that you need to understand to use the tools properly for a complete calibration. IMO, for the money you should either go all in on the DIY, or pay a pro.
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post #281 of 1811 Old 10-25-2013, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

My first thought was, b&h(note that flash meters are not generally the same as light meters). I would think most anything they sell is worth having - but you have to make sure it's suited to your uses. I looked at the prices and think you can spend about the same and get a colorimeter and software which will do a lot more.

There doesn't seem to be a comparable DIY how-to here at AVS, but I think this one is very thorough and introduces all the basics that you need to understand to use the tools properly for a complete calibration. IMO, for the money you should either go all in on the DIY, or pay a pro.

I don't plan on calibrating projector soon.......Jeff Meyer from Accucal will do video calibrations when he comes to area.....which is once a year. The light meter I plan to use would be for me to keep track of light output of projector to verify degradation of bulb.

With Roger Dressler' visit, he had me thinking if I really needed to upgrade the Sony which I see and understand his point. I hate to throw money down the drain.......the light meter maybe just that, but I love working with empirical data! biggrin.gif

So many things still to do.........does anyone have an accurate light meter suggestion for my application? Brand and specific model would be helpful.......
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post #282 of 1811 Old 10-26-2013, 09:17 AM
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There are several incident light meter attachments for the iPhone. They typically read out in "lux", which is lumens per square meter, so you might need to convert if you are wanting a foot-Lambert (lumens per square foot) unit.
I have an old X-Rite Eye-One (I1) Pro colorimeter and Spectra-Cal CalMan software for this.
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post #283 of 1811 Old 10-26-2013, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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There are several incident light meter attachments for the iPhone. They typically read out in "lux", which is lumens per square meter, so you might need to convert if you are wanting a foot-Lambert (lumens per square foot) unit.
I have an old X-Rite Eye-One (I1) Pro colorimeter and Spectra-Cal CalMan software for this.

Thanks................

Have you used the iPhone app before? Would sure make for a quick and easy purchase...............................

Wonder how accurate it is..............I'd be ok if I'm +/- 1 ft/lams off.
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post #284 of 1811 Old 10-26-2013, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I was given permission by Roger to post his in-room response below 80 hz. From graphs, my room is exact opposite............in other words, my nulls are flipped flopped to Rogers. Remedy is to excite null at seating position in 30 hz range with capable sub in rear. From my understanding, Roger is using a total of four subs............while I'll be using two duals.

Here is Roger's in-room graphs:









What I find interesting is his implemented curve and after our conversations, I will attempt to mimic similar house curve for my room. Figuring to purchase another sub by the end of this week, or enter the world of DYI as I enjoy working with wood...............glue is another story. biggrin.gif

The rear sub doesn't have to dig deep like the S2, but must excite the null in the 20-40 hz zone................choices,.......another S2/S1 or Pro 5100...........leaning Pro 5100.

Here is a graph of my room with XT32 enabled......................








Here is another graph of my room response with XT32, Dynamic EQ/volume disengaged.......................huge difference with XT32 off. Still have issue with 30 hz region. Another sub in rear will fix issue.............




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post #285 of 1811 Old 10-26-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
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Have you used the iPhone app before? Would sure make for a quick and easy purchase...............................

I have not used an iPhone app for light measurement. No idea how accurate they are.
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post #286 of 1811 Old 10-26-2013, 05:35 PM
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Corey -

Probably your best value for a highly accurate DIY calibration. Also easy to learn and use, the Spyder4Elite

$219 delivered: http://www.jr.com/datacolor/pe/CVN_S4EL100/
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post #287 of 1811 Old 10-26-2013, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!

That is what I was looking for..............

Sure hope you are around this coming Summer........I intend to start working on coffered ceiling in room.
Your rendition came out well.............wink.gif
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post #288 of 1811 Old 10-26-2013, 06:07 PM
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Thanks!

That is what I was looking for..............

Sure hope you are around this coming Summer........I intend to start working on coffered ceiling in room.
Your rendition came out well.............wink.gif

You're welcome...and thanks!

I took a boatload of other pictures during the coffered ceiling process and I am always available by PM if you have any questions on how I put things together.
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post #289 of 1811 Old 10-27-2013, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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You're welcome...and thanks!

I took a boatload of other pictures during the coffered ceiling process and I am always available by PM if you have any questions on how I put things together.

This is what I'm thinking.........................multi-level soffit.






Knotty Alder........but will bypass the plywood paneling in center.........will use treatments. My current soffit is 12 in height...........but I don't want to have ceiling coffer level with bottom of crown on soffit. I've had this plan from the beginning, but did not have time to implement due to home show time constraints. Have to come up with a pattern......ie. grid. I have one more zone with graphik eye for lighting and already have rough-in. Should be a cinch.
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post #290 of 1811 Old 10-27-2013, 11:23 AM
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That will look killer. I used 7" base molding (installed upside down) for the verticals and 5.25" Curtis Crown molding in my ceiling. The width was standard 1x6, plus the 5/8" x 2 for the width of the baseboard on either side of the facing. I like that you'd be going "chunkier" for your ceiling. Seems to suit the style better.

And if I make it to your area this summer, I'd love to stop by and check out your theater and lend a hand if you are at that point.

Any decision on the sub?
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post #291 of 1811 Old 10-27-2013, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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That will look killer. I used 7" base molding (installed upside down) for the verticals and 5.25" Curtis Crown molding in my ceiling. The width was standard 1x6, plus the 5/8" x 2 for the width of the baseboard on either side of the facing. I like that you'd be going "chunkier" for your ceiling. Seems to suit the style better.

And if I make it to your area this summer, I'd love to stop by and check out your theater and lend a hand if you are at that point.

Any decision on the sub?

You are more than welcome to visit................no place better than Oregon in the Summer! Oceans, beaches, high plains desert, alpine trails...........heck, Oregon is God's country! biggrin.gif

Decision on sub...............................hmmmm. After conversations with Roger, it seems to me I'm convinced on his house curve for low frequencies. Honestly, I'm torn.................another S2/S1 or my preference, I'd rather build the thing. I'm close to retirement and need to develop a hobby! Think I've found one! biggrin.gif

If I had it all to do over again...............and of course not be pushed with the time element............wish I could have built this!





Not too fond of front wall......................but do like rest of the theater! I'm a sucker for rustic wood!!!! smile.gif
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post #292 of 1811 Old 10-29-2013, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Unusual incidence today......................

Had subfreezing temperatures last evening so I woke up with furnace firing away at full bore for the first time this year..................

Anyhow, as I walked to kitchen area, I heard a whining sound coming form the theater room..................so I investigated. My wife likes to keep the theater door shut. rolleyes.gif

So as I opened door, and closed it behind me looking for HVAC noise coming from system..............I once again could hear the same loud whine so I check the two supplies and two return registers which were quiet as a church mouse............................

As I neared the theater door again, I noticed the same high pitch sound coming from the theater door seals...............opened the door, and a huge rush of air came blowing in room. Shut the door again.........sure enough, the high pitch sound was noticeable. Checked the thermostat which was set to cool.........switched over to heat...............and noise stop. Evidently, negative pressure was building due to return being open while supply being closed.....................

I have a Harmony 4-zone system............there is no way negative pressure should build up in the theater room like that. On a positive side, the room for now is really sealed up!

Have a call into the HVAC contractors who built system.......................interested in what they have to say. There was some serious vaccum pressure building up in room..................................
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post #293 of 1811 Old 10-29-2013, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
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I have a Harmony 4-zone system............there is no way negative pressure should build up in the theater room like that. On a positive side, the room for now is really sealed up! Have a call into the HVAC contractors who built system.........
Huh - huh... tell them their system, like, sucks ...huh - huh. tongue.gif
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post #294 of 1811 Old 10-30-2013, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Huh - huh... tell them their system, like, sucks ...huh - huh. tongue.gif

Good one Roger! No pun intended huh?biggrin.gif
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post #295 of 1811 Old 11-02-2013, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm taking HopefulFred's idea and am now in the designing stage of making end tables to house 12" subs.........or maybe in 15'' subs depending on orientation.

Hopefully, Fred can chime in.................................................play on words? biggrin.gif


Here are dimensions I'm working with.............. 15 inches in width max.........22 inches in height(could go higher)....................up to, but no more than 36 inches in depth. Here is the space I'm working with on either side.



With 14 inches in width, I could use a 15 inch driver oriented away from seating, but am worried about movement and vibrations since these subs will have dual purpose........ie. end tables. I figured 12 inch drivers could be used in different axis orientations.......so I'm leaning that way. With smaller drivers, I'm running into higher F3 values.............so maybe not the best way to go.......don't know, I'm not an expert!!! BTW, 15 inch driver would have lower F3 in the mid 20 hz which is what I'm shooting for. Decisions........decisions.

Here are the two drivers I'm looking at.............

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100

ScanSpeak 13'' Revelator which is a fine piece of equipment but F3 of 45 hz.




The other is the Dayton Audio TS320D-4 12" Titanic Mk 4


I'm open to suggestions for driver selection and orientation.........................this decision must be made first before I delve into designing furniture/sub.

Plan to build both end tables using furniture grade type woods.........most likely Knotty Alder. I do have some milled Cherry from stumps fore-mentioned in my build...............
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post #296 of 1811 Old 11-02-2013, 08:43 AM
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Given your strict size requirements, I'd go to the DIY sub forum and ask there. I'm not equipped to model an enclosure.

When I specced mine, I took the dimensions of a kit with a known Qtc and just tweaked the dimensions to maintain volume while getting the width I needed. You may do best with a ported design, which is a little complicated compared to mine.

To limit to down firing, you might even want two drivers, like maybe the anarchy that's been reincarnated recently.
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post #297 of 1811 Old 11-02-2013, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Given your strict size requirements, I'd go to the DIY sub forum and ask there. I'm not equipped to model an enclosure.

When I specced mine, I took the dimensions of a kit with a known Qtc and just tweaked the dimensions to maintain volume while getting the width I needed. You may do best with a ported design, which is a little complicated compared to mine.

To limit to down firing, you might even want two drivers, like maybe the anarchy that's been reincarnated recently.

Trying to select appropriate driver for application, then model box is an art form................what I'm finding, 12 inch drivers have trouble getting in 20 hz region before drop off................guess getting box right would help in that endeavor.

The only option I have is DIY due to size restrictions and due to esthetics.....................I'm fine building the thing................but not the design. If I had the design in hand, I could go to town! biggrin.gif

I plan on remaining sealed with all subs.......................probably going to add an JTR S1 in back in addition to these two end table subs. BTW, can you forward information on where to find information on "Anarchy" design.........................thanks.
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post #298 of 1811 Old 11-02-2013, 09:36 AM
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There is this: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/anarchy-woofer-pre-order.html

And this: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481860/resurrection-of-the-anarchy-woofer-in-4-ohms

But if you want to stay sealed, it might not be any good. Most of the designs are horn, I believe. But if it fits, it's cheap - and has been very popular. I don't really know anything about it, technically.
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post #299 of 1811 Old 11-02-2013, 09:46 AM
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I think I'm confused about your orientation. I was envisioning either a down firing or a sub facing the seats to keep people from kicking it as they stepped down. Do I understand that you are planning to face the driver towards the aisle?

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #300 of 1811 Old 11-02-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I think I'm confused about your orientation. I was envisioning either a down firing or a sub facing the seats to keep people from kicking it as they stepped down. Do I understand that you are planning to face the driver towards the aisle?
If so I would put some metal grills on them.

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