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post #721 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 12:40 PM
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Are you trying to avoid adjusting the gain on the amp? Why?
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post #722 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Are you trying to avoid adjusting the gain on the amp? Why?

 

 

Yes................

 

I've read best to leave at 0 on gain knob to Peavey.....................I'll run a few sweeps at  75 db's with 12 0'clock position on Peavey.

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post #723 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Are you trying to avoid adjusting the gain on the amp? Why?

 

Well Fred,

 

Marantz is at absolute minimum....................now the gain dial on Peavey is as close to far left..........-30 db's..............now I'm close to 78 db's on SPL meter................can't get much lower!    :D

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post #724 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 02:12 PM
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Shouldn't LFE calibration be done at +4db to a reference calibration of 89db vs. 85db for all the other speakers?
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post #725 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 03:12 PM
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I can't see how there's a reason to leave the amp gain setting at zero that trumps getting the level right. It seems to me that first things come first: the level is right, there's enough room for EQ, and none of the signals clip.
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post #726 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I can't see how there's a reason to leave the amp gain setting at zero that trumps getting the level right. It seems to me that first things come first: the level is right, there's enough room for EQ, and none of the signals clip.

 

 

I agree.................I went into Minidsp and lowered sub output before I started................fixed the Marantz issue.............

 

I've been working on the low end....................now have to get things under control above 60 hz..............what do you guys think of this?

 

 

 

Above graph is where I started................now I'm ruler flat to about 60 hz..................more work to be done!

 

Question is...............is this good enough to start in with XT32?  :D

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post #727 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 04:01 PM
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What is your crossover in the Marantz set at for the LCRs and the sides/rears?
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post #728 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

What is your crossover in the Marantz set at for the LCRs and the sides/rears?

 

 

80 hz..................................

 

I'm trying to bring down above 60 hz, but it ruins my flat response down low..................I'm going to give it an hour and then see what XT 32 does to my graph.

 

I'm getting there!  ;)

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post #729 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I ended the day with this graph...................have to work some more to bring down the top end.  Each time I brought down the high end, it messed with my bottom end.  Going to have a listen and see what I think.................

 

Here's today's work...........ugh......................more work to do!  Tried to calibrate to 75 db's and I'm 7 db's too much on top end....................

 

Less than 60 hz looks pretty good!  :D

 

 

I'm now going to run XT32 and see what she looks like......................

 

 

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post #730 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 05:14 PM
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Not sure if you saw my previous comment....but all channels are normally calibrated to 85db and the LFE is calibrated to 89db. Why 75db with the LFE? If you are at 75db with the LFE, that means all of your other channels would be at 71db. Normally 75db is reserved for calibrating to pink noise, not test tones.

Here's a little article from a THX calibrator in Electronic House. Look at #4.

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/five_easy_steps_to_superior_home_theater_sound
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post #731 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Done for the day.......................here is final measurements for today with Minidsp Open and XT32....................

 

Will work on more tomorrow since I have a few more issues.................

 

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post #732 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Not sure if you saw my previous comment....but all channels are normally calibrated to 85db and the LFE is calibrated to 89db. Why 75db with the LFE? If you are at 75db with the LFE, that means all of your other channels would be at 71db. Normally 75db is reserved for calibrating to pink noise, not test tones.

Here's a little article from a THX calibrator in Electronic House. Look at #4.

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/five_easy_steps_to_superior_home_theater_sound

 

 

Just going by my conversations with Roger.............................hopefully, he chimes in.................probably thinks I'm a knucklehead! :o

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post #733 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 08:09 PM
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Nevermind......
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Reference level for all channels except low frequency effects is calibrated by adjusting the audio chain such that a pink noise signal recorded at -20dB relative to full scale (0dB) creates 85dB sound pressure level as measured with a C weighted SPL meter at the seating locations. Volume levels are adjusted for each channel individually until they read 85dB. The master volume control setting associated with this playback level is then set to a nominal 0dB, or reference level. The history behind this is that sound engineers and producers generally work so that the average recording level for dialog in movie soundtrack is -20dB. This allows for 20dB of dynamic range in the soundtrack. The low frequency effects channel is calibrated higher, so that a -20dB signal reaches 95dBC at the seating locations.

In the home it works slightly differently. Most pre-processor and audio video receivers have embedded pink noise test tones used for level setting that are recorded at -30dB relative to full scale. Using these tones the level of individual speakers are adjusted to 75dB as measured with a C weighted SPL meter at the listening position. Note that the low frequency effects signal is nearly always internally set to be to be 10dB louder than that for the speakers so that the end user's life is simplified and the subwoofer is calibrated to 75dB rather than the 85dB one might expect.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/home-theater-blog/2013/3/14/thx-reference-level
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post #734 of 1306 Old 05-10-2014, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reference.......................

 

I'm at it again tomorrow.........hopefully, I'll get it dialed in............

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post #735 of 1306 Old 05-11-2014, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
 

Done for the day.......................here is final measurements for today with Minidsp Open and XT32....................

 

Will work on more tomorrow since I have a few more issues.................

 

 

 

Ok.............I've proved I can work with Minidsp and get my FR quite flat...................................... :rolleyes:

 

 

Planning on implementing Roger's house curve today.....................will also go back to my original FR without MiniDSP in source chain and just raise the low end.  I much preferred that FR for movies.............for Dish sat it was way too much.

 

Looking on bright side................... flat response was needed for Dish sat to sound right...................bass was too boomy with prior setting. Configure 1 for Dish sat................on to Configure 2 and 3!

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post #736 of 1306 Old 05-11-2014, 09:54 AM
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http://www.acousticfrontiers said:
Quote:
The history behind this is that sound engineers and producers generally work so that the average recording level for dialog in movie soundtrack is -20dB. This allows for 20dB of dynamic range in the soundtrack.
Well, actually, dialog in movies is not recorded at -20 dB FS or at 85 dB SPL. On average it is -27 dB. That's why dialog normalization was defaulted to "27" in Dolby Digital. For independent evidence, see: Esben Skovenborg and Thomas Lund, Level-normalization of Feature Films using Loudness vs Speech, AES Convention Paper 8983, October 17-20, 2013 (Requires purchase or AES library access)

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Planning on implementing Roger's house curve today.....................will also go back to my original FR without MiniDSP in source chain and just raise the low end.  I much preferred that FR for movies.............for Dish sat it was way too much.
I use the same EQ curve for all sources, but shift the subwoofer gain down by 6 dB for movies, as compared with music/TV. Not that that matters. What matters is getting it to sound right to your own ears. That's the #1 benefit of a home theater.

BTW, Cory, have you looked at the REW waterfall decay plots?
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post #737 of 1306 Old 05-11-2014, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

http://www.acousticfrontiers said:
Well, actually, dialog in movies is not recorded at -20 dB FS or at 85 dB SPL. On average it is -27 dB. That's why dialog normalization was defaulted to "27" in Dolby Digital. For independent evidence, see: Esben Skovenborg and Thomas Lund, Level-normalization of Feature Films using Loudness vs Speech, AES Convention Paper 8983, October 17-20, 2013 (Requires purchase or AES library access)
I use the same EQ curve for all sources, but shift the subwoofer gain down by 6 dB for movies, as compared with music/TV. Not that that matters. What matters is getting it to sound right to your own ears. That's the #1 benefit of a home theater.

BTW, Cory, have you looked at the REW waterfall decay plots?

Thanks Roger for clairifying,

I can post waterfall plots for you.......

I'm off to Newport for my wife's "Mother's Day" family get-to-gether and will post later.

I'm new to all this, yet I'm enjoying the inherent learning curve.
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post #738 of 1306 Old 05-12-2014, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

http://www.acousticfrontiers said:
Well, actually, dialog in movies is not recorded at -20 dB FS or at 85 dB SPL. On average it is -27 dB. That's why dialog normalization was defaulted to "27" in Dolby Digital. For independent evidence, see: Esben Skovenborg and Thomas Lund, Level-normalization of Feature Films using Loudness vs Speech, AES Convention Paper 8983, October 17-20, 2013 (Requires purchase or AES library access)
I use the same EQ curve for all sources, but shift the subwoofer gain down by 6 dB for movies, as compared with music/TV. Not that that matters. What matters is getting it to sound right to your own ears. That's the #1 benefit of a home theater.

BTW, Cory, have you looked at the REW waterfall decay plots?

 

 

Here Rodger............

 

I have no idea how to read them..................

 

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post #739 of 1306 Old 05-12-2014, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Didn't work on calibrating Sunday.................came home from work and spent the last 2-3 hours finally getting the sound I wanted out of subs.

 

Sound is very clean, and bottom end is to die for.........................all seating positions have similar base 2-3 db's with in each other.  Starting to get it dialed in............

 

Here are my settings for Mindsp Open.........

 

 

 

Crossover settings...........................I'm open to suggestions

 

 

 

Input and output settings.....................

 

Tried to add delays to the rear pair, but no matter what I did, couldn't get them to integrate.  Having zero delay gave the best FR.......................

 

I'm really, really happy with the low end....................

 

 

Sorry, for not having the last graph from REW..............I was too eager to test with Oblivion.  I'm extremely close............and starting to like what I hear!

 

I usually listen at -10 db's on Marantz...............after listening and measuring Oblivion......................I'm hitting peaks of 110 which is perfect for my listening tastes!

 

Will tweak some more as I have a huge dip at 120 hz and am open for suggestions...................... from 10 hz to about 70 hz I'm flat as a pancake. 

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post #740 of 1306 Old 05-16-2014, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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All this week I've been planning on my Summer project......coffer ceilings.

I've sketched up approximate room dimensions along with dimensiions of recessed ceiling. Room is 17' by 25' 2" with 10' ceilings. Dimension of recessed ceiling is 19' 8" by 13' 4".

Here is a hand drawn sketch of room and soffit.



I'm going to need a lot of help designing coffers........putting it together ie. building is not the problem....laying it out is.redface.gif

I was thinking two runs length wise cutting recessed ceiling into 1/3's........and doing the same width wise. My problem is how to line up coffer with columns........or wall sconces.......or neither. Unfortunately, my name is not Martha Stewart and my wife is staying out of it.

I will take lots more pictures of design hurdles I have to overcome.......I'm wondering how other members lined up their coffers with rest of room ie. columns, lights etc.

I'll be using Knotty Alder milled locally from recent logging stint.........

I'm looking to NOT have coffers at same level as perimeter soffit.......I'm looking for vertical interest at two different levels......don't know if this will be problematic.

I'm open to suggestions for those members who have impeccable taste or experience. biggrin.gif

Structure was planned last year with clips and channels at 16" OC with additional clips added to those areas where coffers need support. I'm not sure on width of coffers I will need and request help in that area.

Here is a photo of what I'm looking at:




Will appreciate all the help to get this set up...........will take more photos to give insight with alignment.
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post #741 of 1306 Old 05-16-2014, 06:45 PM
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Both of those example images include a design aspect that your description does not: those coffers are square; your description has me expecting your design to have the same proportions as the room. I think it would come out better with square sections as in the pictures.
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post #742 of 1306 Old 05-16-2014, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Both of those example images include a design aspect that your description does not: those coffers are square; your description has me expecting your design to have the same proportions as the room. I think it would come out better with square sections as in the pictures.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.........pictures are square. I was first thinking two beams for each dimension, thus giving 9 distinct quadrilaterals..............and like you mentioned, maintains similar ratio to room dimensions.

When I first found that photo, I was thinking 9..........but I'm worried or should I say concerned with how beams line up to seats, columns, sconces etc. I might be over thinking this one. Any suggestions?

What have others done with respect to geometry and design aspect. I'm open to trashing my long held design. wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #743 of 1306 Old 05-16-2014, 08:44 PM
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If you aren't into learning Sketchup, I think you would be time and money ahead to draw up a scaled version of your room that shows columns, soffits, stage, riser, and seating, and then make a bunch of copies of it. Then you can brain storm on those pretty quickly to see if anything becomes obvious.

That said, since you are planning coffers that are recessed from your soffits, I don't Think aligning them with your columns will be as critical. One option to get away from that completely would be to set the coffers on a diagonal like TMcG did in his house. Just a thought.

I would sketch up several options just to see what I liked and didn't from each variation. It's a lot easier to throw out a piece of paper than to tear down you coffers and try again.

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post #744 of 1306 Old 05-16-2014, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

If you aren't into learning Sketchup, I think you would be time and money ahead to draw up a scaled version of your room that shows columns, soffits, stage, riser, and seating, and then make a bunch of copies of it. Then you can brain storm on those pretty quickly to see if anything becomes obvious.

That said, since you are planning coffers that are recessed from your soffits, I don't Think aligning them with your columns will be as critical. One option to get away from that completely would be to set the coffers on a diagonal like TMcG did in his house. Just a thought.

I would sketch up several options just to see what I liked and didn't from each variation. It's a lot easier to throw out a piece of paper than to tear down you coffers and try again.

 

 

Don't like my hand drawings?  :D

 

Good idea..........on  Sketchup.............

 

Great suggestion regarding TMcG's coffers................................although very difficult having everything line up..........and those miter cuts? :eek:

 

Do you think going diagonal would be a little modern?  I'm a guy who steps in cow pies all the time and thinks nothing of it...........nothing modern about me!!!.:o

 

Trying to keep in style of rustic lodge look.............I'm tossing nice pieces of Alder out because it doesn't have enough imperfections..............what's wrong with me!  :rolleyes:

 

Fred brings up a good point.................square symmetry might look nicer.  On the other side of coin,  I'm thinking less beams means less weight on ceiling and less work for me this Summer.............

 

Should start a "Show me your coffer ceiling thread"......................<shrugs>

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post #745 of 1306 Old 05-17-2014, 05:45 AM
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Nothing wrong with hand drawn drawings, just take the time to do it to scale, use graph paper and/or an architects ruler. I do it all the time.
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post #746 of 1306 Old 05-17-2014, 05:45 AM
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When I was reading your first post, my immediate thought was two things: Either you'll have to live with rectangular coffers or you'll have to increase the number of coffers in the long dimension to 4 to get "squarish" coffers for the whole ceiling. One "cheat" is that you could build out the bulkhead with a bit more drywall to get the exact dimensions you would need inside that soffit to get perfectly square. The alternative to this is building out a wood bulkhead around the perimeter, although this may not be an aesthetically pleasing option without laying it out precisely. Given your column locations, there's no way that you are going to get precise alignment with the columns.

As noted above, the diagonal sidesteps all of these issues with column alignment and can add a bit more visual interest IMHO. The layout is surprisingly easy. All I did was snap lines at the center of the room in each direction and then snapped lines at the thirds. Using this nine-pocket grid now gives you all of the marking points you will need to spin the ceiling 45 degrees to put it at an angle. It's really no harder to cut a piece of wood at 45 degrees vs. 90 degrees. There was the one inside angle that was the most difficult which required a jig, but I can guide you through that setup if you need additional help.
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post #747 of 1306 Old 05-17-2014, 05:57 AM
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Hmmmmm..... How to put this delicately. It's the not the drawing, just the lack of a straight edge smile.gif Its probably just me, but I'm a little OCD about that sort of thing. That's why I like Sketchup I suppose.

At any rate, I think taking a little time to make a scale drawing of the layout would be helpful. You could get an idea of how square coffers vs dividing the ceiling up into thirds in both directions might look. You could also experiment with how large to make the legs of the coffers. I need to look at what the pieces are supposed to be called.

My gut feel is I would like coffers that are perpendicular to the soffits. Having never seen your room in person, I wonder if the diagonal coffers would look crowded between the soffits, but I was just throwing out ideas.

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post #748 of 1306 Old 05-17-2014, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Nothing wrong with hand drawn drawings, just take the time to do it to scale, use graph paper and/or an architects ruler. I do it all the time.

Yep........old school........and I like it! wink.gif

My drawing is a rough draft to scale..........one square equates to one square foot. It's not perfect nor to perfect scale yet, but gets the point across what I'm dealing with......

Thanks
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post #749 of 1306 Old 05-17-2014, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

When I was reading your first post, my immediate thought was two things: Either you'll have to live with rectangular coffers or you'll have to increase the number of coffers in the long dimension to 4 to get "squarish" coffers for the whole ceiling. One "cheat" is that you could build out the bulkhead with a bit more drywall to get the exact dimensions you would need inside that soffit to get perfectly square. The alternative to this is building out a wood bulkhead around the perimeter, although this may not be an aesthetically pleasing option without laying it out precisely. Given your column locations, there's no way that you are going to get precise alignment with the columns.

As noted above, the diagonal sidesteps all of these issues with column alignment and can add a bit more visual interest IMHO. The layout is surprisingly easy. All I did was snap lines at the center of the room in each direction and then snapped lines at the thirds. Using this nine-pocket grid now gives you all of the marking points you will need to spin the ceiling 45 degrees to put it at an angle. It's really no harder to cut a piece of wood at 45 degrees vs. 90 degrees. There was the one inside angle that was the most difficult which required a jig, but I can guide you through that setup if you need additional help.

Thanks........

Is the goal to have each coffer square? Or is rectangular acceptable and has been done before? As fore-mentioned, I'm far from having an astute artistic vision.

Adding to bulkhead is not really an option...........but I must admit, I'm playing with idea adding 1/4" Knotty Alder plywood to soffit which meets up with coffers. Looking for easy avenue with high design factor but low weigh factor too........no MDF in this project.

Good to hear diagonal is not as difficult as first thought.........though I'm not completely convinced. I'll get to drawing and scaling on paper today and see what diagonal looks like.............the old school way! biggrin.gif
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post #750 of 1306 Old 05-17-2014, 07:24 AM
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I was taking it from your post and representative pictures that you were looking for square. In my last theater I did a straight nine-pocket coffered ceiling on the thirds in both directions, which ended up making rectangular-shaped coffers. I thought it looked good, but I'll try to dig up some pics and let you be the judge.
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