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post #1381 of 1774 Old 07-31-2014, 06:02 AM
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You are a machine! Looks great! The bright side to breaking your rod is now you can just go watch a movie instead of going fishing
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Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!


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post #1382 of 1774 Old 07-31-2014, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
You are a machine! Looks great! The bright side to breaking your rod is now you can just go watch a movie instead of going fishing
And the down side is that graphite tip with eye could rattle like a AMC Pacer!

You should have been in room two days ago when I had framing open with ceiling structure and no insulation.

Felt I had gone to Keltic games.......k not C........and was listening to bagpipes! All sorts of weird hollow sounds coming off ceiling.........definitely Scottish bellows.

Heads up.....don't watch "Noah"....... Waste of time and rental money........but movie does put out cool Scotish bellow sound with open coffer ceiling structure!

BTW.........I'm a broken down version of my old self.......just too stubborn to know when to quit or stop for that matter......I'm taking day off........been at it too hard and need a mental rest more than physical.

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post #1383 of 1774 Old 07-31-2014, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cksqurd View Post
Looking awesome!
Thanks......ceiling work is definitely more thought provoking than I anticipated.


Little more challenging, but really pays dividends as far as aesthetics. Completely changes room from typical to exceptional. For less than $2,000......single most important decision I've made.......,and really has greatest impact on room for least amount of money! Heck, fabric and fabric channels were much more $ than what this project has cost me.

What do you notice more........fabric...............or soffit/ ceiling?

Once again, thanks for thoughtful complements!

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post #1384 of 1774 Old 07-31-2014, 07:44 AM
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Your theater gives me wood.
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post #1385 of 1774 Old 07-31-2014, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Your theater gives me wood.

Considering you have twins............must have fore-mentioned underlined word in spades!!!

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post #1386 of 1774 Old 07-31-2014, 08:07 AM
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Haha... My wife bought me a T shirt that says "real men make twins" and I wear it all the time
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post #1387 of 1774 Old 07-31-2014, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Haha... My wife bought me a T shirt that says "real men make twins" and I wear it all the time

Proud father huh? Should be......have a t-shirt story:



I once bought my wife a t-shirt before our family rivalry when my beloved Trojans played my wife' alum Oregon State Beavers.

Had a t-shirt specifically made with slogan, "Trojan have no problem licking Beavers! Had great graphics, nothing risqué'....just Tommy Trojan using sword on a beaver ........wife threw shirt back at me saying, "You've gone too far!". Her Dad played for Oregon State in 1948.........don 't think he'd appreciate t-shirt either! Needless to say........money well spent for the satisfaction of getting dig. Like usual, my Trojans put a spanking on Beavs.......wife didn't talk to me for days!!

"Fight On!!!"

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post #1388 of 1774 Old 07-31-2014, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Not much happened in room today.............after trip to town shopping, came home at 1 PM and took a major catnap until 5PM. Guess the last two weeks has caught up to me. Anyhow, had to do something in room.

While in town had a hard time sourcing small bronze 1-1/2 inch screws. Home Depot had nothing, neither our local lumber yard........finally landed something close at Lowe's of all places......usually don't step into Lowe's but I was desperate.

Found 1-1/4" Antique Bronze #7's..............good enough and finally installed panel for mount leg.




Pre-drilled, countersunk, and installed panel.



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post #1389 of 1774 Old 08-01-2014, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Back to my old ways.......up at 5 AM cutting MOAR wood!

Should be done with trim today with exception of:

1) Crown molding........having another friend come in from church who is a finish carpenter for finishing outside edge crown molding. Sometimes you have to know your limits. I want this light tray with crown to be perfect and I HATE doing outside crown. Should take him 1-2 hours to glue and pin nail crown. Money well spend.

2) Blocking for fabric track. Will use 1 X 2's and glue to 1/2" inside vertical plywood. Blocking will be mitered which will shore up vertical plywood corners. I gapped plywood intentionally since being essentially a one man show, made my life easier installing 1 X 6 beams and 1 X 8 verts.

3) Attach fabric channel. Will not staple every 2-4 inches, but will use 3/4 inch shelf tapping screws every 4-6 inches. More stable and will give greater surface area to hold down channel. I don't want to expose 1X 2 blocking to forces which may compromise attachment.

4) Acoustic treatments. Waiting on delivery of 10 two inch 2' X 4' Owens Corning 703. Still haven't decided on diffusors.

5) Speakers. Had a great conversation with Roger Dressler on Thursday which was helpful directing me towards implementing Atmos. It might be wise for me to copy TMcG's version of strategic "Loganization." In other words, wait to actually implement Atmos when second generation processors are out so I can implement an Atmos system of 9.4.6.

6) Install 3/4" cove. Will use cove to increase depth of cloud 3/4" which may allow more options for specific speakers. Hoping to have 8-1/4" depth in the end. I will post later specific Triad options I'm looking at......

Cutting MOAR wood!




So here are my morning cuts........waiting on wife to wake up and help install pieces........she loves her morning sleep, thus a long wait!





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post #1390 of 1774 Old 08-01-2014, 08:59 AM
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It might be wise for me to copy TMcG's version of strategic "Loganization." In other words, wait to actually implement Atmos when second generation processors are out so I can implement an Atmos system of 9.4.6.
I believe I have come to the same conclusion too. Not going to attempt setting any top speakers as I do the ceiling now.

Under construction:
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post #1391 of 1774 Old 08-01-2014, 10:00 AM
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Had a great conversation with Roger Dressler on Thursday which was helpful directing me towards implementing Atmos. It might be wise for me to copy TMcG's version of strategic "Loganization." In other words, wait to actually implement Atmos when second generation processors are out so I can implement an Atmos system of 9.4.6.
First, I owe it all to Tom. As @HopefulFred would say, "such is the foresight of Dimension X".

I would also add that the delay is for 4K in addition to Atmos as every piece of hardware in the HDMI path will have to change for either Atmos or 4K. 4K Blu ray (or other source), Atmos preamp/processor, 4K projector....all would need to change from current hardware iterations unless you are one of the lucky few that has a native 4K projector.

It doesn't appear that any manufacturers of the high-quality gear (aside from Trinnov @ 32 channels) are truly ready for any Atmos channels beyond 7.1.2 or 7.2.4 max. The Atmos hardware needs to catch up - AND at a higher quality level - to get to 11.2.4 or 11.2.6. Even the announced Marantz 8802 doesn't appear to be capable.

My two hopes for this year is that with more details on Atmos released, the Procella in-ceiling P6s will be the right type of speaker for Atmos VOG for my system (so I can at least purchase and wire them in right away).....and that native 4K projectors will come down sharply in price to reach more realistic pricing levels. I'm not holding my breath for a fully tried and tested audiophile grade Atmos-equipped preamp. And judging by your conversations with Triad, it may be a little while before they have the right Atmos ceiling product as well.

Your room is looking sweet....keep up the good work!
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post #1392 of 1774 Old 08-01-2014, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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First, I owe it all to Tom. As @HopefulFred would say, "such is the foresight of Dimension X".

I would also add that the delay is for 4K in addition to Atmos as every piece of hardware in the HDMI path will have to change for either Atmos or 4K. 4K Blu ray (or other source), Atmos preamp/processor, 4K projector....all would need to change from current hardware iterations unless you are one of the lucky few that has a native 4K projector.

It doesn't appear that any manufacturers of the high-quality gear (aside from Trinnov @ 32 channels) are truly ready for any Atmos channels beyond 7.1.2 or 7.2.4 max. The Atmos hardware needs to catch up - AND at a higher quality level - to get to 11.2.4 or 11.2.6. Even the announced Marantz 8802 doesn't appear to be capable.

My two hopes for this year is that with more details on Atmos released, the Procella in-ceiling P6s will be the right type of speaker for Atmos VOG for my system (so I can at least purchase and wire them in right away).....and that native 4K projectors will come down sharply in price to reach more realistic pricing levels. I'm not holding my breath for a fully tried and tested audiophile grade Atmos-equipped preamp. And judging by your conversations with Triad, it may be a little while before they have the right Atmos ceiling product as well.

Your room is looking sweet....keep up the good work!
Thanks for your kind words regarding my progress......

Your fore mentioned analysis is dead on.................I'm halfway there since I'm fortunate to have a projector capable of native 4K. You are correct, Dolby Atmos has many manufacturers with their pants to the ground and are scrambling to understand requirements. I'll give you the lowdown in private.......

I'll get this ceiling ready for speakers since I don't have to tap into ceiling..........just run speaker wire via projector conduit. What a great advantage utilizing access to rack via projector conduit for ceiling speakers!!!!!

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post #1393 of 1774 Old 08-01-2014, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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5-1/4" OG light tray skirt is up.........starting to come together.





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post #1394 of 1774 Old 08-01-2014, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I believe I have come to the same conclusion too. Not going to attempt setting any top speakers as I do the ceiling now.
Smart move!

Manufacturers are scrambling in a horse race to get their product out first........taking a step back and see how things evolve is prudent.

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post #1395 of 1774 Old 08-01-2014, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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All trim is done except crown, which is last to go up. Waiting on rope light to arrive with hardware which is another reason why I'm waiting to start crown.

Tomorrow I'll start to build blocking for fabric channel........I'll be screwing and gluing for extra strength. Will also screw in fabric channels which will be11/16th's above 1 X 6 beam. When I receive additional cove next Wednesday, will have to stain and use rattle can satin lacquer since not much wood for my friend to come out and spray.

Here is progress:



Wife and I went through many renditions on what to do with placement for 3-1/4" OG base. We both decided to match same reveal on 1 X 8 and 1 X 6 intersection.




Hard to see, but you're looking at beam upon entering room............3-1/4" OG base is really hard to see, but it's there.......stealthy.




Please forgive my Sasquatch arm...................crown will be same reveal as all other pieces. Looks great with 5-1/4" OG base extending beyond crown by 2-1/4".

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post #1396 of 1774 Old 08-01-2014, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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About to order my fabric for ceiling........

Was going to use Anchorage Onyx but looking at absorption rates compared to 701 on GOM website there is significant difference between the two ie. 3-4 db difference!

I currently have Anchorage in Onyx up front but speakers are behind screen.......only pair of UXL's are behind Anchorage fabric,



Just came across GOM Sensa which is a crepe like Anchorage but is thinner yet has same acoustical properties as 701. Would like to match screen wall to ceiling but if Sensa looks similar to Anchorage I might look more into it.


Does anyone who reads this laborious thread been able to compare Sensa to Anchorage? I'd be interested in your findings......worried Anchorage may not be best fabric for ceiling due to ceiling speakers.
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post #1397 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Let's talk my Atmos plan.........







Photos best represent angles for front, center, and rear speakers for object audio such as Dolby Atmos.

Angle from front of cloud to MLP is approximately 37 degrees and rear angle is close to 39 degrees with respect to ceiling, not front wall.

Front, left, center main speakers are 30 degree spread from MLP, side surrounds are 95 degrees, and rears are 155 degrees. These are respectively angles with current bedded system which is 9.4 ie. 7.4 with two rows of side surrounds.

With all this chatter about Atmos and how to implement, I've been reading, researching, and talking to those in the know for help with design and implementation of Atmos. When I started cloud project which turned into Atmos implementation I was really worried about where to start front leg. I used both angles first published for Atmos along with locations on ceiling for 1st reflection points from LCR which locates 1st row of ceiling speakers at approximately 5 ft in front of mains. As it turns out, wise move or should I say luck move on my behalf to locate start of cloud precisely there. As it turns out, my angles are middle of preferred angle specs from Dolby and fall well with in dispersion funnel for Triad's in-ceiling angle baffle products. Triad uses a 45 degree baffle so my 37 and 39 degree angles from ceiling are located in sweet spot of said speakers........my problem is to now decide which speaker I'm going to use.

So with my front/rear ceiling angles acceptable, then what about middle row ceiling speakers? Well, I moved 1st row beam forward more than what I would have liked due to middle row speakers firing directly down at MLP. Once again I'm lucky making this decison but would have been ok if I had moved beam back a foot or so. Because I have 10 ft ceilings, speaker location for Atmos is forgiving!

When I first started project, I was worried about losing height and not being able to see soffit on other side of room when first entering theater. From photo, my worries were unfounded. When walking into room, first thing you notice is the soffit face directly across from you. Was relieved when sight lines entering room were not concealed by ceiling cloud. BONUS!! Gotta love 10+ ft ceilings.

Anyhow, I'm feeling relieved knowing I'm ok and have flexibility locating Atmos Speakers!

Now it's a waiting game for correct processor, speakers, and eq.
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post #1398 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 07:54 AM
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I was not fully paying attention to your reaction about atmos. I recall you were going to make a trip to see ATMOS in a theater. Did you? What did you think ?

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post #1399 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I was not fully paying attention to your reaction about atmos. I recall you were going to make a trip to see ATMOS in a theater. Did you? What did you think ?

How could you not be captivated by this exciting build thread?


Yeah, saw Godzilla and movie was horrible........not best movie to experience Atmos. My impressions were Luke warm at best......but It's all about potential. Hollywood has a learning curve on how to mix movies for object audio ie. Atmos. From my experience, Atmos is the way to go for audio........potential coming out of the wazzoooooooooo!!!

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post #1400 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 08:23 AM
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Ok so we agree. I think I do remember you saying something like that now, I just forgot. I do check in on your thread fairly regularly. I like your wood. lol. (I guess jokes can write themselves on that one)

I'm still totally undecided about color scheme and if I want to go through the trouble and expense of finishing wood rather that just painting MDF and stuff black. The paint is easier, and the performance is best.

The wood looks awesome though. I like the look of mahagony, or cherry or OAK, either lighter brown or with some RED. Actually darker red is nice too, think Sandman theater. IDK... I feel like it will take me an extra year to complete and really break my budget if I go finished wood. But, I also have a bar planned build and the paint might look funny with the wood bar. I don't want to flat paint the bar.

I feel I'll probably get sucked into the wood. The bar and cabinets will take a while, I'll probably do raised panel doors and designs.

My columns I think I want to be finished wood too, but I also might design them to be ported smoothing subs with a 19hz port tune. I was thinking perhaps just vaneer the MDF and use hard wood on the edges so you don't see the vaneer seems. Finished wood wainscoting has me perplexed. Seems like it could get expensive. Not sure if using MDF and then using a really nice vaneer over that, and then the finish trim makes sense. Or if I just try my best to cherry pick the best pieces of ply and use that. Cost about the same I think, but veneer is more work but could be more elegant. Decisions Decisions.

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post #1401 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so we agree. I think I do remember you saying something like that now, I just forgot. I do check in on your thread fairly regularly. I like your wood. lol. (I guess jokes can write themselves on that one)

I'm still totally undecided about color scheme and if I want to go through the trouble and expense of finishing wood rather that just painting MDF and stuff black. The paint is easier, and the performance is best.

The wood looks awesome though. I like the look of mahagony, or cherry or OAK, either lighter brown or with some RED. Actually darker red is nice too, think Sandman theater. IDK... I feel like it will take me an extra year to complete and really break my budget if I go finished wood. But, I also have a bar planned build and the paint might look funny with the wood bar. I don't want to flat paint the bar.

I feel I'll probably get sucked into the wood. The bar and cabinets will take a while, I'll probably do raised panel doors and designs.

My columns I think I want to be finished wood too, but I also might design them to be ported smoothing subs with a 19hz port tune. I was thinking perhaps just vaneer the MDF and use hard wood on the edges so you don't see the vaneer seems. Finished wood wainscoting has me perplexed. Seems like it could get expensive. Not sure if using MDF and then using a really nice vaneer over that, and then the finish trim makes sense. Or if I just try my best to cherry pick the best pieces of ply and use that. Cost about the same I think, but veneer is more work but could be more elegant. Decisions Decisions.
You're just going through what most of us have done........the planning stage is fun.

As far as finishing in wood, yes a lot more work..........and a tad bit more money, but well worth the added effort. Seriously, wood makes a body/soul good........too bad you're in Mass.........everything is priced higher than rest of states not to mention your taxes!! My current project after completion will be less than $2,000 but I do have perk of getting material at 40% retail.

I looked into wainscoting but didn't want to compromise on audio............so decision was made to forego wainscoting which wouldn't have been much more money, but then again, I do receive perks on specialty plywood.

From a money perspective, I received bids $5,000 to build columns, $10,000 for coffer and soffit trim, another $7,000 for wainscotting..........you can see where I'm going. Since you are a DIY guy, you will be at a fraction of cost. Time is money........if I didn't enjoy building as much as I do, would be very easy to hand over reins to someone else yet I do like not tapping into $ reserves.

I'm not a fan of MDF or painted trim for that matter........it's not because I'm into lumber commodities as a part time job, but I just like wood so much more and resale value for home benefits too.

Look into costs for stain grade materials.......if you like Cherry, clear Alder can be had at 70% of Cherry.........and IMHO with correct stain you'd be hard pressed to tell difference. Besides, Alder has a more attractive grain IMHO.

I'm thinking about expenditures for room trim over the last year. I bet I'm close to $5-6 thousand for ceiling, soffits, trim and columns. That number can be misleading since custom door was $2,300 and plywood for columns was close to $1,000...........largest portion of expenses.

You need to think about MOAR stain grade wood cutting!!!
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post #1402 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Blocking and fabric channel on agenda.......

This morning went to local lumber yard and got 1x2 fir strips........broke out channels and knew right away wasn't going to fly. Went back and exchanged for 2 X 2's which are bigger than I wanted, but they'll work.

Heresy........I don't like staples for fabric channels. I use 1" washer head metal screws which work better in my opinion. Holds material tighter and is forgiving....ie. can easily remove if need be.



Used 2" self-taping/counter sinks screws through 2 X 2 and 1/2 AC-U plywood. Though AC-U plywood is double price......piece of mind knowing 7 ply with no voids is now helpful......there's a time to go cheap, but not here!




Used carpenter square to find bottom edge of blocking. Since fabric channel is 1", and cove to hide track is 3/4, I used 5/16 th's up from 1 X 6 beam for blocking location.



Blocking is now glued with Tite Bond II and scrwed into 1/2" AC-U plywood.

Two pieces of fabric track with mitered corners







Level shot of end result when 3/4" cove will be installed. Fabric track will be right up against cove, 1/16 th inch below cove. Perfect........



More blocking and fabric track to install........
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post #1403 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 03:50 PM
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About to order my fabric for ceiling........

Was going to use Anchorage Onyx but looking at absorption rates compared to 701 on GOM website there is significant difference between the two ie. 3-4 db difference!

I currently have Anchorage in Onyx up front but speakers are behind screen.......only pair of UXL's are behind Anchorage fabric,



Just came across GOM Sensa which is a crepe like Anchorage but is thinner yet has same acoustical properties as 701. Would like to match screen wall to ceiling but if Sensa looks similar to Anchorage I might look more into it.


Does anyone who reads this laborious thread been able to compare Sensa to Anchorage? I'd be interested in your findings......worried Anchorage may not be best fabric for ceiling due to ceiling speakers.

For my false wall I looked at Sensa vs 701 and I liked the Sensa much more and was planning to use it. I used Anchorage in the room but did not want to use the Anchorage in front of my L & R speakers. The Sensa is very close to the Anchorage in pattern and very close to the 701 acoustically. In the end I went with the 701 because compared to the velvet on my screen the 701 black was a much better fit.


Now for your ceiling without a dark black next to it I think Sensa could be a great choice. I would use Sensa over Anchorage for sure.
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For my false wall I looked at Sensa vs 701 and I liked the Sensa much more and was planning to use it. I used Anchorage in the room but did not want to use the Anchorage in front of my L & R speakers. The Sensa is very close to the Anchorage in pattern and very close to the 701 acoustically. In the end I went with the 701 because compared to the velvet on my screen the 701 black was a much better fit.


Now for your ceiling without a dark black next to it I think Sensa could be a great choice. I would use Sensa over Anchorage for sure.

Great! Just the response I was looking for! Anchorage just shouldn't be placed in front of speakers!


A huge thumbs up for you!!!

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Smart move!

Manufacturers are scrambling in a horse race to get their product out first........taking a step back and see how things evolve is prudent.
Yeah.... and it seems my speaker designer still thinks you need multiple speakers per channel for a good experience cross all seats, so for four ceiling channels, I may need 12-16 speakers...

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My suggestion, which I do not see as an option, but as a superior solution, is not to seek shorter distance from the speakers to the listener, but rather by one as far as possible, and also a placement that integrates each speaker as well as possible with their nearest reflecting surface.

Not only that - for the system to work for more than one person at the same time, I advocate high speaker placements that create virtual wave fronts with clear direction (not towards a point source as the becomes differently bad for different listeners, in that they hear different directions to a common point.

In order that such things should work is not good enough with singular sound sources, but you have to have more, and investigating the matter carefully, you notice that you need at least three sources, significant reflex sources included.
(google translate with significant errors adjusted by myself)

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post #1406 of 1774 Old 08-03-2014, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah.... and it seems my speaker designer still thinks you need multiple speakers per channel for a good experience cross all seats, so for four ceiling channels, I may need 12-16 speakers...

(google translate with significant errors adjusted by myself)
With four ceiling speakers for now, I'll be at 13 plus four subs. Hopefully, by next year processor offerings will accommodate 6 ceiling speakers.

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Coming together and close to finish line.......

One bay is done with fabric track.........need cove to trim out which I receive on Wednesday. Trying to find fabric to use for ceiling......Anchorage I used for screen wall is a no go due to acoustic properties.........will get sample of Sensa and see how it works with Anchorage......if all else fails, will use Meander in Boulder which I have plenty of ie. 27 linear ft.



2 X 2 will provide excellent chase for speaker wire and attachment for speakers in corners.




Fabric channel is complete for first bay.......cove trim is needed, fabric tba and still need crown which will be a tray light filled with rope light.




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With four ceiling speakers for now, I'll be at 13 plus four subs. Hopefully, by next year processor offerings will accommodate 6 ceiling speakers.
Time to step it up to 8 subs Cory. The UM18-22's are available now, maybe you should grab four of them to try out to go with the four UXL-18's?
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Time to step it up to 8 subs Cory. The UM18-22's are available now, maybe you should grab four of them to try out to go with the four UXL-18's?

If I go eight subs, it would be four more UXL's..........no reason to have issues with integration due to subs with different parameters.

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Painted first bay........flat black of course. Ceiling gray, will stay just that way................gray.


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