Moving past 7.1 into 9.1/11.x/3D ObjectAudio in HT via AudysseyDSX/DolbyPLIIz/DTS Neo:X™/Auro-3D - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:49 AM
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What matrix decoders do you have?

They are old Circle Surround ones.

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Old 08-16-2013, 10:06 AM
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After a few more months of usage, I still like NEO:X for height more than the PLIIz. Again, it seems "less" in front of you, and more "on top".

I think you want to put the height channels at up high as possible and as spread out the front wall as you can or at least directly on top of the mains. Also, make sure the tweeter aiming at the LP if you can too.
Fantastic! After sleeping on this for a few nights, I think it is best for me just to do what you said. If I feel the need to change anything, I could always add height speaker closer to the seating position. Thanks for the response not only from you but everybody else as well.

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Old 08-16-2013, 11:02 AM
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Has anyone here considered or tried putting the heights directly overhead (voice-of-god), as in ceiling above the MLP.?

There was an article in widescreen review some time ago when this had been discussed.
I have also heard that this seems to be the configuration in some of the new Dolby-Atmos cinemas..

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Old 08-16-2013, 11:06 AM
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Has anyone here considered or tried putting the heights directly overhead (voice-of-god), as in ceiling above the MLP.?

There was an article in widescreen review some time ago when this had been discussed.
I have also heard that this seems to be the configuration in some of the new Dolby-Atmos cinemas..
Oh good so that means that I am not the only one who was thinking about this as well.

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Old 08-16-2013, 11:14 AM
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Has anyone here considered or tried putting the heights directly overhead (voice-of-god), as in ceiling above the MLP.?

If not yet "in home", at least this is one step closer: the new Certified Auro-3D Home Theater demo room at Stassen Hifi's Palazzo AV store in The Netherlands did exactly that...



However, no identification of the installed Auro-3D decoder plus the presence of a Top Front Center speaker suggests this might still be an engineering prototype decoder based on the theatrical 11.1 speaker configuration, rather than a pre production consumer home product...?! cool.gif
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:49 AM
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Has anyone here considered or tried putting the heights directly overhead (voice-of-god), as in ceiling above the MLP.?.
Single worst location for a speaker (even worse than a single rear speaker behind the listener). As with rear speakers, better to use two or four overhead speakers, even when reproducing a mono overhead channel.

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Old 08-16-2013, 11:49 AM
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After a few more months of usage, I still like NEO:X for height more than the PLIIz. Again, it seems "less" in front of you, and more "on top".

Seven months (starting after CES 2013) have now elapsed since DTS started showing a "revised" Neo:X 11.1 configuration with four height speakers on their website (link) but with no explanation for the change.



However, the revised Neo:X 11.1 speaker layout does seem to resemble the one virtualized in DTS Headphone:X . . . which is supposedly the result of combining existing DTS Neo:X processing and some technology acquired along with SRS Labs...?! cool.gif
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:04 PM
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Has anyone here considered or tried putting the heights directly overhead (voice-of-god), as in ceiling above the MLP.?.
Single worst location for a speaker (even worse than a single rear speaker behind the listener). As with rear speakers, better to use two or four overhead speakers, even when reproducing a mono overhead channel.
I think Illusonic is the only vendor actually selling a home theater processor supporting a Center Overhead speaker at this time...? And their manual makes it clear that a "low" ceiling or "large" seating area calls for multiple overhead speakers playing the same signal...
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"For large rooms, or rooms with little height, it may be difficult to position the top loudspeaker such that its sound reaches the listening area evenly. An array of two or four top loudspeakers, fed with the same signal, may be used in this case. Use gain trim (Chapter 6) to calibrate the level of the array."

And the theatrical venue overheads I saw in imm sound promotional literature were multi directional "dispersion style" speakers, rather than "direct" ones.

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Old 08-16-2013, 12:29 PM
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Thanks for the fast responses comments gang.
Was just wondering; if anyone had actually had listening impressions with a pair in the ceiling above the MLP, or in the ceiling and forward of the MLP...?

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Old 08-16-2013, 04:40 PM
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I love how every time dolby or dts or anybody shows a layout of how the speakers are suppose to be, the room seems perfect every time. My listening position is definitely not in the middle of the room.

So is the "revised" NeoX going to come into play or is it how it is now? I would hate to put in ceiling speakers for the right location now and then have an issue because they changed it.

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Old 08-16-2013, 05:24 PM
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Before ripping apart a currently installed home theater room to add new surround speakers for these matrixed formats, why not wait a little bit and see what befalls object based audio in the UHD specifications. I'm sure there will be different recommendations than what is currently being offered by Neo:X, Prologic IIz, and DSX. Things are moving quickly in consumer electronics these days. Hopefully, things will get ironed out by 2014.

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Old 08-16-2013, 05:47 PM
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Before ripping apart a currently installed home theater room to add new surround speakers for these matrixed formats, why not wait a little bit and see what befalls object based audio in the UHD specifications. I'm sure there will be different recommendations than what is currently being offered by Neo:X, Prologic IIz, and DSX. Things are moving quickly in consumer electronics these days. Hopefully, things will get ironed out by 2014.
You are probably right. I can wait a few months and maybe catch some awesome deals through that time too, but I can't wait too much longer or else I get cold sweats and start shaking lol

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Old 08-16-2013, 06:19 PM
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So is the "revised" NeoX going to come into play or is it how it is now? I would hate to put in ceiling speakers for the right location now and then have an issue because they changed it.

Unfortunately the surround sound speaker configurations demonstrated at CEDIA in September and CES in January are often more like 'lab experiments' than pre-production versions. It's better to wait for the CEMs to start showing new product bulletins with detailed specs before you start planning speaker counts and locations for your next system!
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:04 PM
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By any chance do you think that they will have and answer this September or January?

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Old 08-17-2013, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Before ripping apart a currently installed home theater room to add new surround speakers for these matrixed formats, why not wait a little bit and see what befalls object based audio in the UHD specifications. I'm sure there will be different recommendations than what is currently being offered by Neo:X, Prologic IIz, and DSX. Things are moving quickly in consumer electronics these days. Hopefully, things will get ironed out by 2014.

Reading through the Dolby Atmos materials, it seems to me that the minimum small theater speaker configuration for Dolby Atmos is (probably somewhere around) 13.x, and somewhat resembling a superset of the 'old' and 'new' DTS Neo:X 11.1 setups.



My inclination might be to wire for all those 13 speakers in their "standard" locations, and to install speakers as needed whenever I changed processors . . . and to worry about adding overhead speakers later! biggrin.gif
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:04 AM
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Reading through the Dolby Atmos materials, it seems to me that the minimum small theater speaker configuration for Dolby Atmos is (probably somewhere around) 13.x, and somewhat resembling a superset of the 'old' and 'new' DTS Neo:X 11.1 setups.



My inclination might be to wire for all those 13 speakers in their "standard" locations, and to install speakers as needed whenever I changed processors . . . and to worry about adding overhead speakers later! biggrin.gif
_



When you look at the Atmos speaker layout you could break things down this way for home theaters:

It's the basic 7.1 home layout, but with side speakers for each row for more accurate panning (if you have multiple rows, that is, or just want more precise locations for sound effect placement), a set of front wide/side wall surround speakers aimed towards the listening space set somewhere between the front screen speakers and the designated side surrounds, and as many mirrored overhead height speakers as you have side wall surround speakers. And if you're so bold, two subs in the back for the surround channels for speakers that can't handle low frequencies (since sound effects are now encouraged to be full frequency). If you're blessed with a large space for a big scope screen, you could add two more behind the screen front fill speakers (center left and center right).

Sounds doable to me... if the powers that be see fit to give us object based surround sound that is just as powerful as the commercial venues. The equipment should be modular so you can plug in as many speaker locations as you see fit... just like the commercial object rendering decoders.
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Old 08-18-2013, 06:05 PM
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Has anyone here considered or tried putting the heights directly overhead (voice-of-god), as in ceiling above the MLP.?
Single worst location for a speaker (even worse than a single rear speaker behind the listener). As with rear speakers, better to use two or four overhead speakers, even when reproducing a mono overhead channel.

I'm guessing that the 10.2 channel Vertical Surround System (10.2-VSS) that ETRI and Samsung are proposing as a candidate audio configuration for the Korean UHDTV system is not exactly to your liking!

ETRI-Samsung 10.2-VSS - plan view and side elevation...



The configuration adds a pair of Height channels (LH and RH) positioned at a 45° elevation (placed similarly to Audyssey DSX) to a 7.1 Standard surround configuration. A Center Height channel (CH) is located directly behind the MLP at an elevation between 45° and 90° (i.e. directly overhead).

Didn't DMP Records experiment with using a similarly placed "combination" overhead-and-rear-surround channel repurposing of the sixth (LFE) channel on some SACDs...?
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Old 08-18-2013, 07:22 PM
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I'm guessing that the 10.2 channel Vertical Surround System (10.2-VSS) that ETRI and Samsung are proposing as a candidate audio configuration for the Korean UHDTV system is not exactly to your liking!
Not a question of whether I like it or not, but a case of documented problems. A single speaker along the listener's centre line is going to be heard identically in both ears, causing the listener to momentarily think the sound is directly in front when it might actually be coming from above or behind. The solution couldn't be simpler: use two speakers (even if they're playing the same mono signal) spread at least 30 degrees from the centre line.

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Old 08-19-2013, 08:17 AM
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When you look at the Atmos speaker layout you could break things down this way for home theaters:

It's the basic 7.1 home layout, but with side speakers for each row for more accurate panning (if you have multiple rows, that is, or just want more precise locations for sound effect placement), a set of front wide/side wall surround speakers aimed towards the listening space set somewhere between the front screen speakers and the designated side surrounds, and as many mirrored overhead height speakers as you have side wall surround speakers. And if you're so bold, two subs in the back for the surround channels for speakers that can't handle low frequencies (since sound effects are now encouraged to be full frequency). If you're blessed with a large space for a big scope screen, you could add two more behind the screen front fill speakers (center left and center right).

Sounds doable to me... if the powers that be see fit to give us object based surround sound that is just as powerful as the commercial venues. The equipment should be modular so you can plug in as many speaker locations as you see fit... just like the commercial object rendering decoders.
When I was in Hawaii we would only go to a movie if it played at the Ward Center Titan XC theater. It was amazing sound and picture. It was the Dolby Atmos and quite simply it is amazing. Well worth the extra few bucks and you get to pick your seat in advance! If this comes to home theater sign me up!!!
http://www.consolidatedtheatres.com/cinema/content/titanxc.asp
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Old 08-29-2013, 10:53 PM
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Just finished my set up of a 9.0 system, other than the center all towers and it sounds great. My listing is mainly on dts neo x all the time. Minus when I am watching att uverse, and the volume level sucks, so the neo x thx mode sounds great.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:14 PM
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Before ripping apart a currently installed home theater room to add new surround speakers for these matrixed formats, why not wait a little bit and see what befalls object based audio in the UHD specifications. I'm sure there will be different recommendations than what is currently being offered by Neo:X, Prologic IIz, and DSX. Things are moving quickly in consumer electronics these days. Hopefully, things will get ironed out by 2014.

IMO, you pick a point in time to upgrade, chose your equipment from what is available, and live with it until something worth making a new upgrade comes along. I doubt having more than 11.1 ( or.2 ) speakers will ever be practical in my theater. Seems perfect right now !! Somebody may come up with something new, but I am not going to replace my new Denon 4520 for at least 4 years anyway. At that time we will see what is available.

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Old 09-08-2013, 02:44 AM
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If one allows on-wall speakers and cables visible then it will be easier to adapt to change in standards.

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Old 09-08-2013, 06:42 AM
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If one allows on-wall speakers and cables visible then it will be easier to adapt to change in standards.
I don't mind on wall speakers however, I would never have exposed wires! That is too messy looking! I do agree with Craig on this subject. I am just going to do what is right now, actually in January, and just upgrade a few years later if needed.
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Old 09-08-2013, 07:38 AM
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Ok. I don't understand why people stare at cables in a pitch dark room while watching a movie, but I guess we're all deifferent. cool.gif

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Old 09-08-2013, 08:24 AM
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Ok. I don't understand why people stare at cables in a pitch dark room while watching a movie, but I guess we're all deifferent. cool.gif
Sorry dude. I just don't want anything in my house to look like sh1t. Having cables out looks like crap to me. My opinion. My theater is not always dark. It is automated to do certain things during certain points of movies and tv. I am more anal about things than you which is ok. Your way is your way and I have no issue with that. That is how you like it or don't mind it.

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Old 09-08-2013, 08:52 AM
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HDMI 2.0 allows for 32 discrete channels, but I doubt we'll see that come to fruition as it would take up a heck of a lot of space on a physical, streamable, or downloadable format (at least if you have UHD video along for the ride). I would think that 9.1 discrete bit-for-bit lossless (24 bit resolution with choices of 48 kHz or 96 kHz sampling) + any number of meta-data controlled audio objects in a hybrid channel/object-based format would work just fine.

I don't care if it's from DTS or Dolby (or the studio can choose one or the other like on Blu-ray) as long as it moves surround technology and the sonic experience forward.

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Old 09-08-2013, 09:12 AM
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When I was in Hawaii we would only go to a movie if it played at the Ward Center Titan XC theater. It was amazing sound and picture. It was the Dolby Atmos and quite simply it is amazing. Well worth the extra few bucks and you get to pick your seat in advance! If this comes to home theater sign me up!!!http://www.consolidatedtheatres.com/cinema/content/titanxc.asp

Yes ATMOS is a real reason to go to the theater, like you I can't wait until it is available in HT
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:35 AM
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I don't mind on wall speakers however, I would never have exposed wires! That is too messy looking! I do agree with Craig on this subject. I am just going to do what is right now, actually in January, and just upgrade a few years later if needed.

All my wires are run in the attic. Switching from 7.1 to 11.1, and replacing the L C R wires with new 12 gauge wire for my new Martin Logan speakers, was a pain in the you know what. I'm finished for awhile.
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HDMI 2.0 allows for 32 discrete channels

Never mind the cost of all those speakers - my room would be covered wall to wall with speakers! There is such a thing as the law of diminishing returns. Which is why I don't own any $ 1500.00 or $2000.00 bottles of wine. smile.gif

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Old 09-08-2013, 12:12 PM
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All my wires are run in the attic. Switching from 7.1 to 11.1, and replacing the L C R wires with new 12 gauge wire for my new Martin Logan speakers, was a pain in the you know what. I'm finished for awhile.
Never mind the cost of all those speakers - my room would be covered wall to wall with speakers! There is such a thing as the law of diminishing returns. Which is why I don't own any $ 1500.00 or $2000.00 bottles of wine. smile.gif

Any pics of your new MartinLogan setup?

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Old 09-08-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

IMO, you pick a point in time to upgrade, chose your equipment from what is available, and live with it until something worth making a new upgrade comes along. I doubt having more than 11.1 ( or.2 ) speakers will ever be practical in my theater. Seems perfect right now !! Somebody may come up with something new, but I am not going to replace my new Denon 4520 for at least 4 years anyway. At that time we will see what is available.

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zuluwalker is offline  
 

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Emotiva Xpa 5 5 Channel Power Amplifier , Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a , Sony Vpl Vw1000es Projector , Panamax , Audyssey
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