Moving past 7.1 into 9.1/11.x/3D ObjectAudio in HT via AudysseyDSX/DolbyPLIIz/DTS Neo:X™/Auro-3D - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 893 Old 09-09-2013, 11:05 AM
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Any pics of your new MartinLogan setup?


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post #332 of 893 Old 09-09-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

I love how every time dolby or dts or anybody shows a layout of how the speakers are suppose to be, the room seems perfect every time. My listening position is definitely not in the middle of the room.

So is the "revised" NeoX going to come into play or is it how it is now? I would hate to put in ceiling speakers for the right location now and then have an issue because they changed it.

Trinnov room correction can cure that as it will take poorly set up speakers and 'move them' to the ideal positions(s)..

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post #333 of 893 Old 09-09-2013, 12:22 PM
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Yes ATMOS is a real reason to go to the theater, like you I can't wait until it is available in HT
Yea I just hate it is not avaliable where I live now
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post #334 of 893 Old 09-19-2013, 04:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Been so busy at work/kids/yada-yada, been a while since I've posted.
Here's an update to my 130" diag Scope HT (or UltraWide or 2.35:1 or ??) - full 11.3 via Denon 4520CI + Emotiva amp, and added fronts/wides for 11 mains/center/surrounds and 3 subs for LFE give a 11.3 set-up
(I have the IB 4 x 15" line array on Sub1 and both 18" and 15" SI cubes on Sub2, so technically a 11.2 I guess from a processor viewpoint).
Those 18" and 15" SI drivers in sealed cab's along front wall and side wall help flatten the in room response in my 2 row, 8 seat, 11.3 HT.

The panorama stitching in PSE made the curved look to the ceiling acoustic clouds, they are straight in real world.
HT%252011.3%2520cover%2520off%2520Pano-b.jpg

Subjectively I've used my 4520CI and tried AudysseyDSX vs DolbyPL IIz vs DTS Neo:X™ , and honestly I've settled on NeoX as my default codec for 11.3 processing.

I truly love the enveloping surround sound of 11.3, this has satisfied my "upgrade-itis" I'd say till 2015, when I might dive into AT screen + auto masking system + 4k PJ, do some DIY CD speakers (DIY Sound group), totally re-do the acoustic treatments then, etc.

Upon reading the recent posts in this thread, appears DTS posted a "tweak" to their DTS Neo:X™ layout?
Are they really moving the front wides to the rears and calling them rear heights?

Is that a real NeoX 11.1 option? Or, just a proposal on the drawing board for a revision.

If so, that really confuses the whole scheme, calling it the same name yet changing the layout.
A companies whole credibility can get ruined for much less.
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post #335 of 893 Old 09-19-2013, 06:27 AM
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Nice update. I didn't heare that from DTS, but didn't look for it either. I would like to know the answer to that as well because I have been looking at the X4000 for 9.x because I can not fit wides in my theater. If they make rear heights part of NeoX, then i will go with the same avr as you. I wonder if a firmware updat is possible to change thing is the avr?

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post #336 of 893 Old 09-19-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Upon reading the recent posts in this thread, appears DTS posted a "tweak" to their DTS Neo:X™ layout? Are they really moving the front wides to the rears and calling them rear heights? Is that a real NeoX 11.1 option? Or, just a proposal on the drawing board for a revision. If so, that really confuses the whole scheme, calling it the same name yet changing the layout. A companies whole credibility can get ruined for much less.

The "demo" version of DTS Neo:X 11.1 shown at CES 2009 was in a 5/6.x speaker layout, 'somewhat resembling' the full 11.x Yamaha CinemaDSP speaker configuration, but the 2011 "and currently shipping" version is a 7/4.x speaker format, 'more like' full 11.1 Audyssey DSX, which was being somewhat idolized in 2011 . . . so it seems likely that at least some of the two year delay was rethinking the product, as opposed to just some re-engineering...?!

The story behind the "X", as described in a very small 'puff piece' interview with DTS about Neo:X on TechRadar com (link):
Quote:
"When we showed 11.1, we came up with a concept called 'Neo:X' – where 'X' could be any number within reason. 'X' for CES was 11. [...] [11.1] was what we showed. It could be 11, it could be 9, it could be 13, it could be 366. The Master Audio algorithm is very expandable."

So it does seem that the name was always intended to be something of a 'generic catch all' for a possible future family of speaker configurations...?! cool.gif
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post #337 of 893 Old 09-19-2013, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Upon reading the recent posts in this thread, appears DTS posted a "tweak" to their DTS Neo:X™ layout?
Are they really moving the front wides to the rears and calling them rear heights?
No, if they do make a change, then they'll likely give users the option to use front wides or rear heights (or maybe both). But it's not like they're going to move the front wides out of their speaker layout and replace them with rear heights.
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Is that a real NeoX 11.1 option? Or, just a proposal on the drawing board for a revision.
Closer to the latter, as they haven't made any official announcement what changes they're they're going to make, let alone whether there will be changes at all.
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

If so, that really confuses the whole scheme, calling it the same name yet changing the layout.
A companies whole credibility can get ruined for much less.
That's not going to happen to their "whole credibility". In this day and age of discrete multi-channel, most consumers are hardly aware of matrix processing. They can't be confused by a change to it if they're not even aware of it.

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post #338 of 893 Old 09-19-2013, 04:44 PM
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The "revised" Neo:X 11.1 speaker layout with four height speakers seems to resemble the one virtualized in DTS Headphone:X, which is supposedly the result of combining existing DTS Neo:X processing and some technology acquired with SRS Labs . . . plus deletion of the front wide speakers makes this version look a lot like the "demo" version of DTS Neo:X 11.1 shown at CES 2009...?! cool.gif
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post #339 of 893 Old 09-19-2013, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thx Sanjay and SoundChex, I've not read this thread recent posts in depth till just recently so outta the loop of current conversation.

I'll live with my 11.3 set-up as is, transparently every time I'm watching in the HT I'm blown away by the surround sound field, and I'm really hard on myself for striving towards upper level sound quality.

Does not mean I'm not for tweaking here and there, but a major re-do is at least a few years down the road.....my wife would not speak to me if I did something major sooner than 2015 wink.gif

I wonder how many 11.3 set-up's there are in Michigan?

More than 10? 20?

How many in USA? 100? 1,000?
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post #340 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 01:26 AM
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The BDA supposedly hopes to publish a revision to the Blu-ray Disc spec by year-end 2013. We anticipate it will include some provisions for 4k discs . . . and we can only hope that Dolby, DTS, and the BDA have also agreed on some useful increase in the audio content allowed on a BD.

My understanding is that a Dolby TrueHD bitstream can actually carry up to 14 discrete sound channels, so a simple lossless channel count increase from 7.1 to 13.1 would seem a straightforward choice for now (with predefined downmixes to 7.1, 5.1, and 2.0 for backward compatibility.) Conveniently, a 13.1 channel architecture would allow for discrete encoding of a front wide channel pair, plus both front and rear height channel pairs as an extension to the standard 7.1 speaker configuration allowed currently...?!

Edited for update (9/20/2013): I believe it was actually a Dolby Digital Plus 13.1 system (9.1 plus 4 heights?) that Dolby demonstrated as a "proof of concept" 3D audio system around 2005. In any case, I see the Dolby site currently states that "Dolby TrueHD can deliver up to 16 channels of pristine audio, so it is ready for any future HD streamed formats."

Anyone up to installing a 14.2 or 15.1 configuration...?!
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post #341 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Thx Sanjay and SoundChex, I've not read this thread recent posts in depth till just recently so outta the loop of current conversation.

I'll live with my 11.3 set-up as is, transparently every time I'm watching in the HT I'm blown away by the surround sound field, and I'm really hard on myself for striving towards upper level sound quality.

Does not mean I'm not for tweaking here and there, but a major re-do is at least a few years down the road.....my wife would not speak to me if I did something major sooner than 2015 wink.gif

I wonder how many 11.3 set-up's there are in Michigan?

More than 10? 20?

How many in USA? 100? 1,000?

Sounds very cool. You may be the first! I'm in SE Michigan, when's the Home theater meet!!

I am getting ready to take my theater from 7.2 to 13.2. Right now I'm in the design phase and am looking for speakers that have the right dispersion characteristics and can handle high SPLs. I am going to use Trinnov processing for post processing and uses a modded Oppo Blu Ray for my source that will send a digital signal directly to the Trinnov and not even use an SSP (for know). WHen these new formats get sorted out, then I'll look a t a new SSP that has a digital output (as all my D/A will be in the TRinnov).

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post #342 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Upon reading the recent posts in this thread, appears DTS posted a "tweak" to their DTS Neo:X™ layout?
Are they really moving the front wides to the rears and calling them rear heights?
No, if they do make a change, then they'll likely give users the option to use front wides or rear heights (or maybe both). But it's not like they're going to move the front wides out of their speaker layout and replace them with rear heights.
 

 

That's interesting. I can't physically accommodate Wides, but I can do Rear Heights to go with my Front Heights. I must check this out...  I don't suppose, though, that DTS NEo:X will be offered via a firmware update to my Onkyo 5509?  I'm not so keen I’d go out and replace the prepro for this!

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post #343 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 07:21 AM
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I'm sure it's been discussed already, but I can't find it at the moment, which processors support 11.x? In particular I'm looking for either a preamp or an AVR with pre outs (preferably balanced, but that's not absolutely necessary). These are the few that I am aware of:
  • Marantz 8801 - 11.2 channels and balanced outputs, but it is expensive!
  • Denon 4520 - Although the spec sheet indicates this is a 9.2 channel receiver, it apparently has pre outs for 11.2 channels.
  • Onkyo - There appear to be a few 9.x channel models, but I have not found an 11 channel model. Am I missing one?


Are there others in this price range that I'm missing?

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #344 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I'm sure it's been discussed already, but I can't find it at the moment, which processors support 11.x? In particular I'm looking for either a preamp or an AVR with pre outs (preferably balanced, but that's not absolutely necessary). These are the few that I am aware of:
  • Marantz 8801 - 11.2 channels and balanced outputs, but it is expensive!
  • Denon 4520 - Although the spec sheet indicates this is a 9.2 channel receiver, it apparently has pre outs for 11.2 channels.
  • Onkyo - There appear to be a few 9.x channel models, but I have not found an 11 channel model. Am I missing one?


Are there others in this price range that I'm missing?

 

No Onkyo currently. Maybe in the next model line-up. 4520 does 11.2 with the addition of a 2 channel amp.

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post #345 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I'm sure it's been discussed already, but I can't find it at the moment, which processors support 11.x? In particular I'm looking for either a preamp or an AVR with pre outs (preferably balanced, but that's not absolutely necessary). These are the few that I am aware of:
  • Marantz 8801 - 11.2 channels and balanced outputs, but it is expensive!
  • Denon 4520 - Although the spec sheet indicates this is a 9.2 channel receiver, it apparently has pre outs for 11.2 channels.
  • Onkyo - There appear to be a few 9.x channel models, but I have not found an 11 channel model. Am I missing one?


Are there others in this price range that I'm missing?

From DTS site you can look detail specs on these:
http://www.dts.com/consumers/entertainment-audio/neox.aspx#product
Quote:
Neo:X Receivers
Below is a list of some of the first Neo:X capable receivers available for purchase.

Onkyo
•TX-NR1010
•TX-NR818
•TX-NR5010
•TX-NR3010
Integra
•DTR-80.3
•DTR-70.4
•DTR-50.4

Denon
•AVR-4520CI
Pioneer
•SC-1522-K
•Elite SC-68
•Elite SC-67
•Elite SC-65

Sony
•STR-DA5700ES
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post #346 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Thx Sanjay and SoundChex, I've not read this thread recent posts in depth till just recently so outta the loop of current conversation.

I'll live with my 11.3 set-up as is, transparently every time I'm watching in the HT I'm blown away by the surround sound field, and I'm really hard on myself for striving towards upper level sound quality.

Does not mean I'm not for tweaking here and there, but a major re-do is at least a few years down the road.....my wife would not speak to me if I did something major sooner than 2015 wink.gif

I wonder how many 11.3 set-up's there are in Michigan?

More than 10? 20?

How many in USA? 100? 1,000?

Sounds very cool. You may be the first! I'm in SE Michigan, when's the Home theater meet!!

I am getting ready to take my theater from 7.2 to 13.2. Right now I'm in the design phase and am looking for speakers that have the right dispersion characteristics and can handle high SPLs. I am going to use Trinnov processing for post processing and uses a modded Oppo Blu Ray for my source that will send a digital signal directly to the Trinnov and not even use an SSP (for know). WHen these new formats get sorted out, then I'll look a t a new SSP that has a digital output (as all my D/A will be in the TRinnov).

I held HT HEMI meet Spring 2011 at my place, the next one Nick is having November 2nd or 9th, will you be there?

Sounds like your up for Spring 2014 HEMI meet with your 13.2 set-up done by then smile.gif
I'm sure your fellow HEMI members would love to hear your 13.2, in my memory you held HEMI meet in the 2000's, before I was active on AVS.
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post #347 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

I wonder if a firmware updat is possible to change thing is the avr?

I too would like to know if the new NEO:X speaker layout could be installed via a firmware update? I heard Denon has had a flash that added Dynamic EQ and some other audyssey features. Just not sure if that could be done for the NEO:X processor.

As you can see from the DTS.com website, they clearly ditched the wides for rear hights.

Anybody know if the new NEO:X invalidates all current NEO:X AVRs?
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post #348 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View PostBeen so busy at work/kids/yada-yada, been a while since I've posted.
Here's an update to my 130" diag Scope HT (or UltraWide or 2.35:1 or ??) - full 11.3 via Denon 4520CI + Emotiva amp, and added fronts/wides for 11 mains/center/surrounds and 3 subs for LFE give a 11.3 set-up
(I have the IB 4 x 15" line array
HT%252011.3%2520cover%2520off%2520Pano-b.jpg

Subjectively I've used my 4520CI and tried AudysseyDSX vs DolbyPL IIz vs DTS Neo:X™ , and honestly I've settled on NeoX as my default codec for 11.3 processing.  I truly love the enveloping surround sound of 11.3,
Upon reading the recent posts in this thread, appears DTS posted a "tweak" to their DTS Neo:X™ layout?
Are they really moving the front wides to the rears and calling them rear heights?....

Oh my what a room, I love the wall of speakers :)

 

The sound must be fabulous!

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post #349 of 893 Old 09-20-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I held HT HEMI meet Spring 2011 at my place, the next one Nick is having November 2nd or 9th, will you be there?

Sounds like your up for Spring 2014 HEMI meet with your 13.2 set-up done by then smile.gif
I'm sure your fellow HEMI members would love to hear your 13.2, in my memory you held HEMI meet in the 2000's, before I was active on AVS.

Yes, about 10 years ago. IF I can get this right, it should be a pretty transformative upgrade in sound. I am really excited about the Trinnov piece. I'm planning on Nick's place.

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post #350 of 893 Old 09-22-2013, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I'm sure it's been discussed already, but I can't find it at the moment, which processors support 11.x? In particular I'm looking for either a preamp or an AVR with pre outs (preferably balanced, but that's not absolutely necessary). These are the few that I am aware of:
  • Marantz 8801 - 11.2 channels and balanced outputs, but it is expensive!
  • Denon 4520 - Although the spec sheet indicates this is a 9.2 channel receiver, it apparently has pre outs for 11.2 channels.
  • Onkyo - There appear to be a few 9.x channel models, but I have not found an 11 channel model. Am I missing one?


Are there others in this price range that I'm missing?
The Onkyo TX-NR929, TX-NR3010, and TX-NR5010 all have 11.2 pre-outs. The 929 is an incredible value if it suits your needs.
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post #351 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 08:00 AM
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The Onkyo TX-NR929, TX-NR3010, and TX-NR5010 all have 11.2 pre-outs. The 929 is an incredible value if it suits your needs.

I think I'd recommend the Denon X4000 over the Onkyo 929. One big reason is that it doesn't look like the Onkyo has the other half of Audyssey XT32's features which include dual sub calibration. The Denon has that feature. The X4000 is also a 9.2 channel receiver.

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post #352 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 08:17 AM
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I would also recommend a Denon but he wants an 11 channel receiver/processor so I would recommend the Denon 4520. I am going with the X4000 because I can not fit wides, but if I could fit wides, I would go with the 4520.

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post #353 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

I would also recommend a Denon but he wants an 11 channel receiver/processor so I would recommend the Denon 4520. I am going with the X4000 because I can not fit wides, but if I could fit wides, I would go with the 4520.

I'm not sure I follow the distinction here? I have up to 14 channels of external amplification, so I'm looking for an 11 channel processor (if that's the right term). However, I thought if there is an 11 channel receiver (a processor with onboard amplification, correct?) with pre outs that can be had cheaper than a corresponding processor, I see no reason to spend more.

I have a feeling I'm missing something in the terminology.

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post #354 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 08:29 AM
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I'm not sure I follow the distinction here? I have up to 14 channels of external amplification, so I'm looking for an 11 channel processor (if that's the right term). However, I thought if there is an 11 channel receiver (a processor with onboard amplification, correct?) with pre outs that can be had cheaper than a corresponding processor, I see no reason to spend more.

I have a feeling I'm missing something in the terminology.

You are correct. Everything you said is right. I too was in the same boat as you. I have external amplification for 13 channels and didn't know if I should get a processor or avr and use the pre outs. I made a thread about it and everybody in there confirmed my idea of getting the Denon X4000. It was cheaper than some processors and did that same thing but better options such as networking. You can get them for a really good price from the AVS sales reps on here too.

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post #355 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 08:36 AM
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Do you have a link to your thread discussing this? I'd overlooked this receiver so far, but on the surface it looks like a great option. The only feature I see missing off-hand is the lack of balanced outputs, but that seems par for the coarse at this price range. I can certainly get along without that smile.gif

Oh. I think I see the catch. You can only drive 9 speakers at a time. I say only as if that's not a lot of speakers smile.gif

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post #356 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 08:46 AM
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Pm-ed you some info

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post #357 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 09:08 AM
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Thanks for the info! There's certainly a lot to digest here.

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You are correct. Everything you said is right. I too was in the same boat as you. I have external amplification for 13 channels and didn't know if I should get a processor or avr and use the pre outs. I made a thread about it and everybody in there confirmed my idea of getting the Denon X4000. It was cheaper than some processors and did that same thing but better options such as networking. You can get them for a really good price from the AVS sales reps on here too.

In designing my 13.x system, my HT consultant reminded me that unlike the current 5.1 and 7.1 formats, the newer formats may put single sounds into certain, single speakers at times (e.g. Atmos, Auro 3D Trinnov, etc) and in doing so, the one speaker will have to be loud enough to keep up with the rest of the system in terms of output SPLs, Otherwise, you lose the effect (being drowned out by the other speakers if not loud enough to emerge from the sound field). Generally, DTS MA, PLII, TRUE HD rarely put single, discrete sounds into a single speaker - they simply put sound in all surround speakers and increase volume as needed. For example, in movie pans from front to back, things simply get louder in succeeding pairs of surround speakers (though all or most have a base sound). His explanation is that some of the newer formats keep all surrounds quite and fire sound only into each succeeding single or set while the others stay silent to move the pan around.. This scenario will most likely occur as we get into discrete 9,11 channel mixes but better to consider such now when buying, adding speakers and amplification. So, the speakers won't have the output 'help' of other speakers to make discrete sounbds - so they have to be very capable.

So, choose amplification and speakers wisely so as to keep up to the loudest levels you listen to (otherwise, you will lose the benefits).
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Good info. What did you integrate into your setup to allow you to get 13 channels? I am assuming that you have front height and rear height to complete the 13 channels?

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post #360 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 09:59 AM
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Good info. What did you integrate into your setup to allow you to get 13 channels? I am assuming that you have front height and rear height to complete the 13 channels?

I will be using a Trinnov MC for such (16 outputs). The Trinnov does it's own version of 3-D sound (3-D remapping) and you can feed it a digital signal from an SSP or a Player to keep everything in the digital domain.

http://www.trinnov.com/products/pro-audio/mc-processor/concept-mc/?lang=en_us


At this point,

3 LCRs
2 Front Sides
2 Front Heights
2 Pair of Sides
2 Rears

I can add side rears as some formats require that but the Trinnov will allow me to 'reposition' for a better soundfield if rear surrounds are required in a track.

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