Moving past 7.1 into 9.1/11.x/3D ObjectAudio in HT via AudysseyDSX/DolbyPLIIz/DTS Neo:X™/Auro-3D - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 10:01 AM
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If you need 7.2 plus wides and heights at the same time, then the Denon X4000 is not for you. It does 9.2. The manual says you can select wides or heights, but not both. You might be able to if you drop the rear channel decoding. It all comes down to processor horsepower, not just how many amp or pre-amp outs the receiver has.

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post #362 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I will be using a Trinnov MC for such (16 outputs). The Trinnov does it's own version of 3-D sound (3-D remapping) and you can feed it a digital signal from an SSP or a Player to keep everything in the digital domain.

http://www.trinnov.com/products/pro-audio/mc-processor/concept-mc/?lang=en_us


At this point,

3 LCRs
2 Front Sides
2 Front Heights
2 Pair of Sides
2 Rears

I can add side rears as some formats require that but the Trinnov will allow me to 'reposition' for a better soundfield if rear surrounds are required in a track.
What is the price on that?

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post #363 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 11:22 AM
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I don't have a final configuration but likely $12K to $17K. Gulp!

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #364 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 11:48 AM
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I figured it would be something crazy out of my league expensive. Good for you tough! I wish I could play around with something like that to be able to change things up and see the differences between A and B and C and so on.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #365 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 11:55 AM
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I figured it would be something crazy out of my league expensive. Good for you tough! I wish I could play around with something like that to be able to change things up and see the differences between A and B and C and so on.

Yeah.. It's an investment piece for sure. Since it post processes, it does it's thing regardless of any future surround codec as it does it's work after the signal has been decoded and on it's way to the amplifiers. It's mostly a room correction piece that works on different principals than Audyssey, Lyngdorf, DIRAC and others. But it's 3-D remapping is it's magic. I've heard it in great systems in my travelings to CEDIA. It's used in many movies houses and recording studios. Kal Rubinson just gave it a great review in this month's Stereophile. I haven't really changed anything on the audio side of my room in many years short of a new SSP 3 years ago and after hearing the Trinnov piece, as great as I thought my room was (I currently use QSC room correction), the sonic difference was stark comparatively. I first heard it 3 years ago but haven't been able to stomach the cost until now.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #366 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 12:59 PM
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So is the Trinnov using a proprietary algorithm to generate the surround field based on your speaker locations? I realize that's pretty well what you said, I'm just trying to digest it. I suppose that's not much different than the current 9.x and 11.x algorithms, just applied in general to N speakers/locations. The part I'm still chewing on is how it will handle sounds directed to individual speakers particularly since those standards haven't been ironed out yet (have they?). I'd be interested in knowing more about how this thing is setup and what it's limitations are. Off to Google.

When thebland moves on to HT 3.0 I got dibs on the Trinnov!

As far as speaker sizing and amplification to handle these new standards that are popping up, in general I agree with what you're saying. However, if I understand these algorithms correctly (which may be a stretch) they place sounds in 3D-space and then let the processor decide which speakers are needed to reproduce that sound. If you have a speaker that happens to perfectly coincide with that point in 3-space, then it will be solely responsible for reproducing the sound. However, if your particular setup only has speakers "close" to that point, then the processor will utilize multiple speakers. I may be way off base here, so I suppose these are more questions than statements. I wonder if we'll start seeing processors with multiplexor outputs to allow scalability for these formats. On top of that, I wonder how much traction we'll see with this in the consumer market.

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post #367 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 01:43 PM
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You are correct. Everything you said is right. I too was in the same boat as you. I have external amplification for 13 channels and didn't know if I should get a processor or avr and use the pre outs. I made a thread about it and everybody in there confirmed my idea of getting the Denon X4000. It was cheaper than some processors and did that same thing but better options such as networking. You can get them for a really good price from the AVS sales reps on here too.

How much?
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post #368 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 02:01 PM
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MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #369 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

So is the Trinnov using a proprietary algorithm to generate the surround field based on your speaker locations? I realize that's pretty well what you said, I'm just trying to digest it. I suppose that's not much different than the current 9.x and 11.x algorithms, just applied in general to N speakers/locations. The part I'm still chewing on is how it will handle sounds directed to individual speakers particularly since those standards haven't been ironed out yet (have they?). I'd be interested in knowing more about how this thing is setup and what it's limitations are. Off to Google.

When thebland moves on to HT 3.0 I got dibs on the Trinnov!

As far as speaker sizing and amplification to handle these new standards that are popping up, in general I agree with what you're saying. However, if I understand these algorithms correctly (which may be a stretch) they place sounds in 3D-space and then let the processor decide which speakers are needed to reproduce that sound. If you have a speaker that happens to perfectly coincide with that point in 3-space, then it will be solely responsible for reproducing the sound. However, if your particular setup only has speakers "close" to that point, then the processor will utilize multiple speakers. I may be way off base here, so I suppose these are more questions than statements. I wonder if we'll start seeing processors with multiplexor outputs to allow scalability for these formats. On top of that, I wonder how much traction we'll see with this in the consumer market.

One thing Trinnov does is it 'moves' your speakers to ideal positions so soundtracks can be their best. It can turn a poor speaker set up into an ideal one. The 3-D remapping can use the height speakers to place sounds and cues even more precisely. What it does is create a seamless sound field. There are many phase corrections which allow adjacent speakers to blend into each other to make a seamless sound stage. Depending on the set up, it can use active crossovers and make phase adjustments for each driver in your speaker.

It cannot invent cues and will certainly be better with a discrete 9.1, 13.1, etc soundtrack as opposed to matrixing and using cues in the soundtrack (like in Auro) to better place sounds.
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post #370 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

One thing Trinnov does is it 'moves' your speakers to ideal positions so soundtracks can be their best. It can turn a poor speaker set up into an ideal one. The 3-D remapping can use the height speakers to place sounds and cues even more precisely. What it does is create a seamless sound field. There are many phase corrections which allow adjacent speakers to blend into each other to make a seamless sound stage. Depending on the set up, it can use active crossovers and make phase adjustments for each driver in your speaker.

It cannot invent cues and will certainly be better with a discrete 9.1, 13.1, etc soundtrack as opposed to matrixing and using cues in the soundtrack (like in Auro) to better place sounds.

Dare I ask what the MSRP on that is?

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post #371 of 893 Old 09-23-2013, 05:43 PM
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Dare I ask what the MSRP on that is?
7 posts ago:
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I don't have a final configuration but likely $12K to $17K. Gulp!

Sanjay
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post #372 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 05:54 AM
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The Onkyo TX-NR929, TX-NR3010, and TX-NR5010 all have 11.2 pre-outs. The 929 is an incredible value if it suits your needs.

I think I'd recommend the Denon X4000 over the Onkyo 929. One big reason is that it doesn't look like the Onkyo has the other half of Audyssey XT32's features which include dual sub calibration. The Denon has that feature. The X4000 is also a 9.2 channel receiver.
I'm a happy TX-NR3010 user running 11.1 with an external amp, I can't recommend Onkyo over Denon, or vice versa for that matter, as I've never listened to Denons. My post was just correcting an earlier post that Onkyo didn't have 11 channel support.

But you have some specs wrong. Per Chris at Audyssey, Onkyos with XT32 have Audyssey SubEQ HT included. Also, the Denon X4000 is a 7 powered channel amp with 11.2 preouts, where the Onkyos I list are 9 powered channels with 11.2 pre-outs. The reason I mentioned the 929 is that it also has built-in Bluetooth and WiFi.
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post #373 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 08:26 AM
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Oh! Didn't expency that from the X4000. Thanks a million for that, could very well aim for that instead of 4520 then. smile.gif

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post #374 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 08:32 AM
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But you have some specs wrong. Per Chris at Audyssey, Onkyos with XT32 have Audyssey SubEQ HT included. 

 

Not the Onkyo 818 though. That has XT32 but no SubEQ HT.  

 

This only matters to people who have, or intend to have, more than one sub. And even then, if the subs are identical and positioned equidistant from the MLP, SubEQ HT isn't actually required.  MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT will set the levels and distances (delays) of two subs independently and then EQ them together as a pair. If the subs are identical and equidistant from the MLP there is no need to set levels and distances independently. The resulting EQ of the pair of speakers will be the same whether the unit has XT32+SubEQ HT, or just XT32 alone.

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post #375 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 09:07 AM
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Oh! Didn't expency that from the X4000. Thanks a million for that, could very well aim for that instead of 4520 then. smile.gif
The x4000 can only produce 9 channels even with an external amp. You have the option of either heights or wides not both so if you want 11 channels and a denon, get the 4520.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #376 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 11:13 AM
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The x4000 can only produce 9 channels even with an external amp. You have the option of either heights or wides not both so if you want 11 channels and a denon, get the 4520.

O for the joy that lasts forever... Ok.

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post #377 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 11:35 AM
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Yeah.. It's an investment piece for sure. Since it post processes, it does it's thing regardless of any future surround codec as it does it's work after the signal has been decoded and on it's way to the amplifiers. It's mostly a room correction piece that works on different principals than Audyssey, Lyngdorf, DIRAC and others. But it's 3-D remapping is it's magic. I've heard it in great systems in my travelings to CEDIA. It's used in many movies houses and recording studios. Kal Rubinson just gave it a great review in this month's Stereophile. I haven't really changed anything on the audio side of my room in many years short of a new SSP 3 years ago and after hearing the Trinnov piece, as great as I thought my room was (I currently use QSC room correction), the sonic difference was stark comparatively. I first heard it 3 years ago but haven't been able to stomach the cost until now.

does the QSC processor allow you to "steer" the audio signal? For instance, if you wanted two side surround channels instead of one, does the QSC ensure that the signal pans from the first side-surround into the second (a la movie theaters)? I'm planning for a build in January, and I've been searching for a device that can do this. Thanks in advance.
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post #378 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 12:44 PM
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does the QSC processor allow you to "steer" the audio signal? For instance, if you wanted two side surround channels instead of one, does the QSC ensure that the signal pans from the first side-surround into the second (a la movie theaters)? I'm planning for a build in January, and I've been searching for a device that can do this. Thanks in advance.

No. The QSC models I have are all 2 channels and do not communicate with each other. They are great DSPs for the price and have powerful DSP tools but do not work together. THey'll fix your response and time alignment.

If you ever think you're interested in using QSC, I'm selling my QSC DSP-4's (4) and QSC DSP-30 (1) in the next couple months.

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post #379 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

does the QSC processor allow you to "steer" the audio signal? For instance, if you wanted two side surround channels instead of one, does the QSC ensure that the signal pans from the first side-surround into the second (a la movie theaters)? I'm planning for a build in January, and I've been searching for a device that can do this. Thanks in advance.

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No. The QSC models I have are all 2 channels and do not communicate with each other. They are great DSPs for the price and have powerful DSP tools but do not work together. THey'll fix your response and time alignment.

If you ever think you're interested in using QSC, I'm selling my QSC DSP-4's (4) and QSC DSP-30 (1) in the next couple months.

Will the Trinnov do this with native 5.1/7.1 content? My limited understanding is that even in a theater setting, the mix is only a 5.1 or 7.1 mix, so all the sides will play the same source, but they are delayed and/or decorelated from one-another. I don't think they pan effects across multiple side surrounds.

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post #380 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 01:02 PM
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For instance, if you wanted two side surround channels instead of one, does the QSC ensure that the signal pans from the first side-surround into the second (a la movie theaters)?
In movie theatres, ALL the speakers along one side are playing the same signal at the same time, no steering from one to another (except Dolby Atmos, which is relatively new and rare AND requires and Atmos-encoded soundtrack).
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I'm planning for a build in January, and I've been searching for a device that can do this.
Only way to do something similar is to use the Wide speaker outputs and DTS Neo:X processing.
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post #381 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 02:24 PM
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No. The QSC models I have are all 2 channels and do not communicate with each other. They are great DSPs for the price and have powerful DSP tools but do not work together. THey'll fix your response and time alignment.

If you ever think you're interested in using QSC, I'm selling my QSC DSP-4's (4) and QSC DSP-30 (1) in the next couple months.

Ah, how do the QSC processors compare to Xilica processors? I've been planning to pick up a Xilica XD processor because it allows DSP in real-time while listening to content. Do the QSC's allow this as well? If so, please shoot me a PM with what you plan to charge for your processors.
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Will the Trinnov do this with native 5.1/7.1 content? My limited understanding is that even in a theater setting, the mix is only a 5.1 or 7.1 mix, so all the sides will play the same source, but they are delayed and/or decorelated from one-another. I don't think they pan effects across multiple side surrounds.
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In movie theatres, ALL the speakers along one side are playing the same signal at the same time, no steering from one to another (except Dolby Atmos, which is relatively new and rare AND requires and Atmos-encoded soundtrack).
Only way to do something similar is to use the Wide speaker outputs and DTS Neo:X processing.

Thanks for this clarification. I'm leaning against cannibalizing my 27x18 rec room to build a sprawling theater and will likely use my 11'x27' bonus room to build the theater (crude excel mock-up below) since soundproofind will be much easier in the sealed, unfinished, foundation-wall hugging smaller room. The length of the room, in relation to the width, will require two sets of surround channels. I'm wondering how to do this properly. So if movie theaters send the same channels, then it looks like the only thing I'd need to do is set delays, etc? So a standard, albeit capable, DSP would do the trick, eh?

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post #382 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 03:41 PM
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........... The length of the room, in relation to the width, will require two sets of surround channels. I'm wondering how to do this properly. So if movie theaters send the same channels, then it looks like the only thing I'd need to do is set delays, etc? So a standard, albeit capable, DSP would do the trick, eh?

.....

This comes up from time-to-time, but none of the pros are giving away the secrets smile.gif

Here's a thread

And another

And one of my favorites

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post #383 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 04:33 PM
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Ah, how do the QSC processors compare to Xilica processors? I've been planning to pick up a Xilica XD processor because it allows DSP in real-time while listening to content. Do the QSC's allow this as well? If so, please shoot me a PM with what you plan to charge for your processors.

Thanks for this clarification. I'm leaning against cannibalizing my 27x18 rec room to build a sprawling theater and will likely use my 11'x27' bonus room to build the theater (crude excel mock-up below) since soundproofind will be much easier in the sealed, unfinished, foundation-wall hugging smaller room. The length of the room, in relation to the width, will require two sets of surround channels. I'm wondering how to do this properly. So if movie theaters send the same channels, then it looks like the only thing I'd need to do is set delays, etc? So a standard, albeit capable, DSP would do the trick, eh?


I can't comment on the Xilica. But the QSCs are far advanced with many more features... then again, the QSCs are almost triple the cost per channel.

I've found the QSCs to be excellent and many who've heard my theater can tell you about the big dynamics, etc. Moreover, the QSCs really seem to hold their value.

They use a serial cable and any changes must be uploaded (not real time). But after amking changes, the uploading takes about 5 seconds... so fast - but no chance of loud pops!

I'd look for about 1.2 MSRP for my pieces - a better deal if more or all are purchased at once. The MSRP is around $725 for each! So,,, $360ish

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post #384 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 04:49 PM
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I'm leaning against cannibalizing my 27x18 rec room to build a sprawling theater and will likely use my 11'x27' bonus room to build the theater (crude excel mock-up below) since soundproofind will be much easier in the sealed, unfinished, foundation-wall hugging smaller room. The length of the room, in relation to the width, will require two sets of surround channels. I'm wondering how to do this properly. So if movie theaters send the same channels, then it looks like the only thing I'd need to do is set delays, etc? So a standard, albeit capable, DSP would do the trick, eh?

Personally, I don't like sending the same signal to more than one speaker. In the diagram above, I would make the middle row the main listening position. The speakers in line with that row would be my Side speakers; the speakers in line with the front row would be my Wide speakers; the speakers behind the back row would be my Rear speakers.

The Wides would be extracted using DTS Neo:X, which outputs sounds that are common to the Front channel and Side channel (i.e., sounds that would have phantom imaged between them anyway). It's the same as extracting a Centre output from sounds that are the same in the L/R channels (those sounds would have imaged at the centre of the soundstage anyway).

For sounds moving around the room, this will result in smooth pans: left Front speaker to left Wide speaker to left Side speaker to left Rear speaker. And since you won't be reproducing sounds in dual-mono, you don't have to be concerned about comb filtering artifacts.

Finally, consider having the entry door swing open the other way (into the hallway). Just sayin'.

Sanjay
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post #385 of 893 Old 09-24-2013, 10:24 PM
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what size room do you need to get the benefits of this - ie - below what size is it just overkill w/no real difference?
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post #386 of 893 Old 09-25-2013, 01:46 AM
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Thanks for this clarification. I'm leaning against cannibalizing my 27x18 rec room to build a sprawling theater and will likely use my 11'x27' bonus room to build the theater (crude excel mock-up below) since soundproofind will be much easier in the sealed, unfinished, foundation-wall hugging smaller room. The length of the room, in relation to the width, will require two sets of surround channels. I'm wondering how to do this properly. So if movie theaters send the same channels, then it looks like the only thing I'd need to do is set delays, etc? So a standard, albeit capable, DSP would do the trick, eh?


You can do delays by positioning speakers. Typically they need to go further up the wall the further back they are to make sure the one slightly in front of you will be the first arriving sound. I'll try out my program on your room and see where it wants the speakers to go, never tried that with a three seat layout, so it might not turn out that good, also the door could turn out an issue, unless you can imagine mounting a speaker on it.

Given the narrow room - do plan for heavy dampening of the side walls to kill off the reflection from the fronts.

---

Edit: slightly difficult with three rows as expected. You suggestion seems rather close. I'd suggest you try and get the side surrounds very slightly in front of each row and add one more side surrounds for the third row. And make sure the distance from the seat to the surround slightly in front (about 18 degrees) is closer than to the one behind you - this is done by having them lower at the front and higher in the back.

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #387 of 893 Old 09-25-2013, 12:03 PM
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J_P_A, I really appreciate those links! Very Very helpful (and applicable)!

sdurani, I did demo wide channels earlier this year and was very impressed with what I experienced. I'm not a fan of NeoX though...its too diffuse for me (as opposed to DSX.) it might be difficult to position wide channels in the front columns, although I did see Cinemar did it and I'm sure it sounds great.

Nightlord, thank you for checking on that, and I appreciate the suggestion of having an incremental increase in surround-channel height in correlation with distance from screen (and, coincidentally, also correlational to the increase in riser height). I will keep that in mind. I'm now thinking that I should probably just bite the bullet and demo my larger room for use as the theater. I could get away with just one side-surround pair in the large room..but I have no discounted this narrow room yet. I really want to use it...
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post #388 of 893 Old 09-25-2013, 12:46 PM
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sdurani, I did demo wide channels earlier this year and was very impressed with what I experienced. I'm not a fan of NeoX though...its too diffuse for me (as opposed to DSX.) it might be difficult to position wide channels in the front columns, although I did see Cinemar did it and I'm sure it sounds great.
When you demo'd wide channels, which processing was being used? Neo:X or DSX?

I don't understand your comment about fitting Wide channels into the front columns. They're speakers, just like the ones you'll be putting in columns for Side channels and Rear channels. IF you can fit Sides and Rears into columns, then why would you not be able to fit Wides?

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post #389 of 893 Old 09-25-2013, 01:30 PM
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When you demo'd wide channels, which processing was being used? Neo:X or DSX?

I don't understand your comment about fitting Wide channels into the front columns. They're speakers, just like the ones you'll be putting in columns for Side channels and Rear channels. IF you can fit Sides and Rears into columns, then why would you not be able to fit Wides?

I probably should have been more concise in my statement about wide channels and columns..sorry about that. Since the standard for wide channels has been established (I believe it's 60 degrees from the main listening position in a circular arc--for both location and toe-in), it would be increasingly difficult to get that 60 degree location/toe-in in a column. I believe the standard is +- 10 degrees though, so I might have some wiggle room with that channel.

BTW, my previous experience with wide channels used DSX. loved it for movies--not too much for music (except concert blu rays).
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post #390 of 893 Old 09-25-2013, 02:21 PM
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BTW, my previous experience with wide channels used DSX.
The reason I asked is to find out how you arrived at the conclusion that Wides extracted via Neo:X were "too diffuse" for you?

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