Moving past 7.1 into 9.1/11.x/3D ObjectAudio in HT via AudysseyDSX/DolbyPLIIz/DTS Neo:X™/Auro-3D - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 893 Old 11-15-2013, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I've been using Audyssey wides almost exclusively, because they fill in a "hole" between the mains and surrounds, but I appreciate what heights can do. It's frustrating not being able to experience both at the same time.
The 4520 can't do heights and wides at the same time?

Sanjay
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post #452 of 893 Old 11-15-2013, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The 4520 can't do heights and wides at the same time?

Yes, it can. I was referring to my current Denon 3313, which the 4520 will replace.

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post #453 of 893 Old 11-15-2013, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The 4520 can't do heights and wides at the same time?
You can play 9 channels at a time on the 4520 and 11 channels if you have an external amp.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #454 of 893 Old 11-15-2013, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I was referring to my current Denon 3313, which the 4520 will replace.
Got it, thanx.

Sanjay
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post #455 of 893 Old 11-17-2013, 05:13 AM
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I'm moving this way and am wondering what the advantages are of a surround speaker that can play low frequencies (40-60 Hz) versus another that can only play down to 80-100 Hz? Are their advantages? And are active speakers / bi amped speakers even better for surround speakers?

Thanks!

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post #456 of 893 Old 11-17-2013, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I'm moving this way and am wondering what the advantages are of a surround speaker that can play low frequencies (40-60 Hz) versus another that can only play down to 80-100 Hz? Are their advantages? And are active speakers / bi amped speakers even better for surround speakers?

Thanks!

IMO there are no advantages. Send the bass to the sub(s) and if they are calibrated right, you will not be able to tell where the bass is coming from anyways. Active surrounds or bi amped surrounds would be overkill considering what actually gets played out of them during a movie. Don't get me wrong, I have all my speakers on an external amp, but I could get away with running my surrounds off of an avr.

The only way I could see doing what the topic is, is if you listened to multi channel music.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #457 of 893 Old 11-17-2013, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

IMO there are no advantages. Send the bass to the sub(s) and if they are calibrated right, you will not be able to tell where the bass is coming from anyways. Active surrounds or bi amped surrounds would be overkill considering what actually gets played out of them during a movie. Don't get me wrong, I have all my speakers on an external amp, but I could get away with running my surrounds off of an avr.

The only way I could see doing what the topic is, is if you listened to multi channel music.

What I've read is that having a lower frequency response and bass coming from the actual surround speaker at lower frequencies (40-60 Hz - or lower) allows for proper phasing of the sound coming from the drivers in the surround rather than high frequencies coming from the surround at the side wall and low frequency coming from the sub at the front off the room. So, the lower the surround plays, the more accurate and deep the sound field as most of the freq response is coming from the same speaker. ANd running the speaker actively or biamping and crossing over in a TRinnov or other device makes for an even better response from the surround speaker.

This is the conundrum as surrounds that play lower are far more costly... The Quested LT-8s or Seaton Catalyst 8's fuller range (new surround speaker) are far more costly than the limited range models in their lines.. About 70% more $$!

I just bought this book and I'm about 20% through it. So, I'm still learning. But like to hear all opinions.
http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092


There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #458 of 893 Old 11-17-2013, 06:26 AM
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I guess that if you only have the sub in the front of the room I can see what you are saying. I am pretty sure that you will get the best out of using trinnov. That thing can do just about anything with your sound field. That is not available for the average person though. Not only are the full range speakers more expensive, but they can be larger too and that could be an issue for the surrounds. If you can fit them, have the money, go for it. I would love to hear your theater one day, but you are so far away.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #459 of 893 Old 12-02-2013, 03:18 PM
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a Quick question guys.
Whats to prefer?

7.2 with heights and wides or 9.2 with wides?

I have the following system.
Integra DHC-80.3
2 x Sunfire TGA-7401
7 x Sunfire CRS3C, eventually ill mount 1pc more so i have 2 centers
2 x CRM2Bip
2 x Sunfire TS-EQ12

155" Screen Excellence Enlightor 4K AT fixed frame screen.

The integra allow 9.2 with either heights or wides and 7.2 with both heights and wides.

Im about start the building of my HT room and just wanted to know what u guys prefer.
Hope for some answers smile.gif

regards R
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post #460 of 893 Old 12-02-2013, 03:43 PM
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I do not have my heights or wides up and running just yet, but from all of my research I have done, wides give you "more" than the heights do. In other words, people just flat out liked the wides more.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #461 of 893 Old 12-02-2013, 04:19 PM
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Haven't tried heights yet but do like wides. If I were getting ready to run wires, I'd just wire for both and see which I like better. Fwiw, I've had rear surrounds for years. When I got my rx8s I decided to just run 5.1 for a while and move my bookshelves to the surround duty in place of the sats I had there. I didn't really feel I was missing anything not having the rear surrounds working. Pans were still good and liked the sound of a bigger speaker too. Now that I have an x4000, I'm back to using the sats and the bookshelves are in the wides pos. Planning on getting a pair or two of rx1s for wides and surrounds (and maybe heights) in the future.
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post #462 of 893 Old 12-02-2013, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravetrancer View Post

a Quick question guys.
Whats to prefer?

7.2 with heights and wides or 9.2 with wides?

I have the following system.
Integra DHC-80.3
2 x Sunfire TGA-7401
7 x Sunfire CRS3C, eventually ill mount 1pc more so i have 2 centers
2 x CRM2Bip
2 x Sunfire TS-EQ12

155" Screen Excellence Enlightor 4K AT fixed frame screen.

The integra allow 9.2 with either heights or wides and 7.2 with both heights and wides.

Im about start the building of my HT room and just wanted to know what u guys prefer.
Hope for some answers smile.gif

regards R

When I looked up your preamp it has 9.2 pre outs, I read that as traditional 7.2 and either wides OR heights, or traditional 5.2 and then both wides and heights.

Most here say go with the discrete channels first, hence 7.2, I agree that.

Then, some like wides and some heights.
I agree with the other post, pre wire for both wides and height, then try and decide for yourself.
Your preamp
http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DHC-80.3&class=Preamplifier&p=f
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post #463 of 893 Old 12-02-2013, 08:53 PM
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Wide might be better as long as you have all same speakers :)  Maybe I should get an extra pair of B&W 800Diamonds

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post #464 of 893 Old 12-02-2013, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravetrancer View Post

7.2 with heights and wides or 9.2 with wides?
If your main listening position is away from the back wall, then I would start with a standard 7.1 layout: 3 fronts, 2 sides, 2 rears.

When set up properly, there will be plenty of phantom imaging between the fronts and sides, so wides wouldn't be my next choice since you'll hear sounds from that location anyway.

What will be more unique would be heights, because they will add a vertical dimension up front that you won't get via phantom imaging from your other speakers. I would place the heights as high as possible and spread significantly wider than the mains.

Sanjay
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post #465 of 893 Old 12-02-2013, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If your main listening position is away from the back wall, then I would start with a standard 7.1 layout: 3 fronts, 2 sides, 2 rears.

When set up properly, there will be plenty of phantom imaging between the fronts and sides, so wides wouldn't be my next choice since you'll hear sounds from that location anyway.

What will be more unique would be heights, because they will add a vertical dimension up front that you won't get via phantom imaging from your other speakers. I would place the heights as high as possible and spread significantly wider than the mains.
Above the wides or further?
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post #466 of 893 Old 12-03-2013, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Above the wides or further?
If the set-up has no wides, then I would split the angle between the fronts and sides for the height speaker location. If using wides, then split the angle between the fronts and wides.

I like to place the heights between other speakers to make their contribution more unique. Any time I've heard them above a speaker it always sounded like I was listening to a taller speaker.

Sanjay
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post #467 of 893 Old 12-03-2013, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If the set-up has no wides, then I would split the angle between the fronts and sides for the height speaker location. If using wides, then split the angle between the fronts and wides.

I like to place the heights between other speakers to make their contribution more unique. Any time I've heard them above a speaker it always sounded like I was listening to a taller speaker.

sdurani,
Seems like you have had some good experiences in locating height speakers.
Have you ever entertained the idea of overhead (and wide). For examples in the ceiling, but off to the sides, and pushed forward 1/2 way between the side surrrounds and the L/R.....?

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post #468 of 893 Old 12-03-2013, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Have you ever entertained the idea of overhead (and wide). For examples in the ceiling, but off to the sides, and pushed forward 1/2 way between the side surrrounds and the L/R.....?
Isn't that what I just said: high up as possible, split the angle between the sides and fronts.

Sanjay
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post #469 of 893 Old 12-03-2013, 08:44 AM
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Yep - high up as possible would also correspond to my ceiling smile.gif

I just needed to make sure I understood what I was reading, because I was surprised to see someone of your credibility, endorsing or having tried an idea I had previously considered (and was shot-down by someone else ~1yr ago).
Wasn't aware someone had actually tried it and liked the result - very encouraging!

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post #470 of 893 Old 12-03-2013, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I've not seen discussion on the pratical lower ceiling height for ceiling/VOG speakers.
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

For the ceiling/VOG speakers what is the lower limit where they become impractical, too close to the seated people to make effective sound field?

My HT ceiling is just under 9 feet tall, 8 feet 9 inches - so I'd be game trying them in future, I could easily recess then into my ceiling.
However those here with ceilings in the 7 foot range may not be able to go the ceiling/VOG route?

I've not seen any specifications on the room size/range min's, or if I have then my 50 year old brain has forgotten them, if they exist please post here.

Was that discussed/presented here by any chance?
Also, what direction/discussion came from this.
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The latest AES Convention in a couple of weeks is going to have a workshop titled:

"Height Channels: Theory, Practice, and "Ears-On" Experience"

http://www.aes.org/events/135/workshops/?ID=3653

Hopefully this is a good sign for the future of 3D audio.
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post #471 of 893 Old 12-03-2013, 10:06 AM
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Mike,
No, my previous query on ceiling height speakers (VOG); was in another AVS thread > 1yr ago.
Also the workshop noted in Sdurani's post also caught my eye. I noticed that the workshop occurred back in October - wonder if anyone that attended has commented; would love to see a summary... biggrin.gif

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post #472 of 893 Old 12-03-2013, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View PostWhat I've read is that having a lower frequency response and bass coming from the actual surround speaker at lower frequencies (40-60 Hz - or lower) allows for proper phasing of the sound coming from the drivers in the surround rather than high frequencies coming from the surround at the side wall and low frequency coming from the sub at the front off the room. So, the lower the surround plays, the more accurate and deep the sound field as most of the freq response is coming from the same speaker. ANd running the speaker actively or biamping and crossing over in a TRinnov or other device makes for an even better response from the surround speaker.  This is the conundrum as surrounds that play lower are far more costly... The Quested LT-8s or Seaton Catalyst 8's fuller range (new surround speaker) are far more costly than the limited range models in their lines.. About 70% more $$!  I just bought this book and I'm about 20% through it. So, I'm still learning. But like to hear all opinions.
http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092

My book of reference so much information!

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post #473 of 893 Old 12-04-2013, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

When I looked up your preamp it has 9.2 pre outs, I read that as traditional 7.2 and either wides OR heights, or traditional 5.2 and then both wides and heights.

Most here say go with the discrete channels first, hence 7.2, I agree that.

Then, some like wides and some heights.
I agree with the other post, pre wire for both wides and height, then try and decide for yourself.
Your preamp
http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DHC-80.3&class=Preamplifier&p=f
I have it hooked up today with heights. Did calibrate XT32, but it isnt optimal yet because i am rebuilding my HT room, so ive hade it set up just to be able to watch some movies.
Now its setup with heights, and to be honest i do not hear much difference with heights, not in movies anyway. Music sounds a little more with the heights, fills upp the space so to say.

Never really reflected that it was 7.2 instead of 9.2, feels little dumb to write 9.2, anyway they make it apprehend little diffuse.

Thnx for the answer btw
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post #474 of 893 Old 12-05-2013, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
I have it hooked up today with heights. Did calibrate XT32, but it isnt optimal yet because i am rebuilding my HT room, so ive hade it set up just to be able to watch some movies.
Now its setup with heights, and to be honest i do not hear much difference with heights, not in movies anyway. Music sounds a little more with the heights, fills upp the space so to say.

Never really reflected that it was 7.2 instead of 9.2, feels little dumb to write 9.2, anyway they make it apprehend little diffuse.

Thnx for the answer btw

I find that what the height channels add is pretty much movie dependent - some movies really benefit from heights, some don't. I got more out of the wide channels. However, with full 11.2, when it's all rocking, it really sounds good !!

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post #475 of 893 Old 12-05-2013, 12:39 PM
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I just ordered the Denon 4520 today - looking forward to being able to use heights and wides at the same time. On the Denon 3313, I've been using Audyssey wides almost exclusively. Heights have taken a back seat. I lucked out with my recent remodel, being able to position my speakers quite well for extended surround. The angles give me good separation and angles close to the recommended Audyssey positions.

First up is extensive A/B sessions with Audyssey DSX and Neo:X for my favorite test Blu-ray's. smile.gif

Joe Clark

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post #476 of 893 Old 12-05-2013, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
I just ordered the Denon 4520 today - looking forward to being able to use heights and wides at the same time. On the Denon 3313, I've been using Audyssey wides almost exclusively. Heights have taken a back seat. I lucked out with my recent remodel, being able to position my speakers quite well for extended surround. The angles give me good separation and angles close to the recommended Audyssey positions.

First up is extensive A/B sessions with Audyssey DSX and Neo:X for my favorite test Blu-ray's

I'll be curious to hear which you like better.

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Direct Line - 585-671-2972
I'm available 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday Email me at craig@avscience.com
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post #477 of 893 Old 12-06-2013, 11:04 PM
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Maybe. But I'm finding 11.1 channels sounds just great as it is. Hell, I haven't even had them all going for hardly 6 months yet.................. smile.gif

+1

They make life just grand don't they!?! HT is wildly fun again.
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post #478 of 893 Old 12-20-2013, 05:59 PM
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Well, I just got a replacement Denon 4520 today. The first one had a bad left surround amp, so it went back. So far, I've just listened in direct mode, mostly to music but also a few clips from films.

Let me make it clear. I'm a huge Denon fan. I've had lots of receivers, but my favorites have always been Denons. I had a 3801, 3805 and 3808. Now I have a 1312 (cheapie for the computer room speakers), 2313 (for the bedroom home theater) and a 3313 (in the main home theater room). I sold a highly rated Yamaha A3000 and replaced it with the 3313. It's not possible to exaggerate how much better I like it. Aside from the fun height channel effects, though, I just don't care for the sound coming from this Denon 4520. Bass lacks authority and the midrange is anorexic compared to both the 2313 and 3313. Add to that the fact that it won't play HDTracks music from any of three USB thumb drives that work on both the 2313 and the 3313. Height channels don't come close to making up for the difference in sound between the 3313 and the 4520. Is it possible I got two lemons, or is this receiver really that lacking?

Joe Clark

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post #479 of 893 Old 12-21-2013, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Well, I just got a replacement Denon 4520 today. The first one had a bad left surround amp, so it went back. So far, I've just listened in direct mode, mostly to music but also a few clips from films.

Let me make it clear. I'm a huge Denon fan. I've had lots of receivers, but my favorites have always been Denons. I had a 3801, 3805 and 3808. Now I have a 1312 (cheapie for the computer room speakers), 2313 (for the bedroom home theater) and a 3313 (in the main home theater room). I sold a highly rated Yamaha A3000 and replaced it with the 3313. It's not possible to exaggerate how much better I like it. Aside from the fun height channel effects, though, I just don't care for the sound coming from this Denon 4520. Bass lacks authority and the midrange is anorexic compared to both the 2313 and 3313. Add to that the fact that it won't play HDTracks music from any of three USB thumb drives that work on both the 2313 and the 3313. Height channels don't come close to making up for the difference in sound between the 3313 and the 4520. Is it possible I got two lemons, or is this receiver really that lacking?

 

There is a dedicated 4520 thread and you would probably be better off taking your query there. In that thread there are hundreds of people who rate the 4520 very highly. AFAICR nobody has ever said that their unit has "bass that lacks authority" or "anorexic midrange".  Indeed, I personally would doubt if those descriptions applied to ANY AVR from one of the mainstream manufacturers, at any price point (save perhaps the entry level model). 

 

I assume you have run Audyssey XT32?

 

BTW I am not a Denon fanboy or anything - I don't even own one myself.  Try the 4520 thread and see if they can help you.

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post #480 of 893 Old 12-21-2013, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Well, I just got a replacement Denon 4520 today. The first one had a bad left surround amp, so it went back. So far, I've just listened in direct mode, mostly to music but also a few clips from films.

Let me make it clear. I'm a huge Denon fan. I've had lots of receivers, but my favorites have always been Denons. I had a 3801, 3805 and 3808. Now I have a 1312 (cheapie for the computer room speakers), 2313 (for the bedroom home theater) and a 3313 (in the main home theater room). I sold a highly rated Yamaha A3000 and replaced it with the 3313. It's not possible to exaggerate how much better I like it. Aside from the fun height channel effects, though, I just don't care for the sound coming from this Denon 4520. Bass lacks authority and the midrange is anorexic compared to both the 2313 and 3313. Add to that the fact that it won't play HDTracks music from any of three USB thumb drives that work on both the 2313 and the 3313. Height channels don't come close to making up for the difference in sound between the 3313 and the 4520. Is it possible I got two lemons, or is this receiver really that lacking?

I am shocked that you think this way! I have the 4520 and think it sounds wonderful! I had a Yamaha before the 4520 and it didn't even compare! Maybe you did get two lemons, because the first thing that I noticed was how awesome the 4520 sounded.

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