Moving past 7.1 into 9.1/11.x/3D ObjectAudio in HT via AudysseyDSX/DolbyPLIIz/DTS Neo:X™/Auro-3D - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 893 Old 02-27-2014, 02:19 PM
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I simply can not wait. I dream about this.

I can wait - until my next upgrade cycle in 4 - 5 years. That could get expensive with a new 22 channel audio system and a new 4K projector, plus everything else that would need to be replaced !! eek.gif Guess I'll need to cut back on the wine .......................

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post #512 of 893 Old 02-27-2014, 03:26 PM
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Maybe I'm completely missing the boat here, but will object based surround processing allow for greater flexibility in actual speaker location similar to the Trinnov processing units? If this will allow the consumer to put speakers in general regions of their room and still get a good surround field, then I think it would be adopted quickly.

For example, you have a door where your side surround should go, but you could put one speaker on each side of the door and the processor can deal with it.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #513 of 893 Old 02-27-2014, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

If you like 11.2 matrixed audio now... you'll cry when you hear object based surround. There is no comparison.


This is the main reason I am hesitating to do anything really more expensive with my current 11.3 channel system. Sticking with the Marantz 8801 for now. I haven't even heard an Atmos theater, but I bet it will be awesome when hollywood really gets the hang of using it and the directors are considering it while making scenes.

My room has a tremendous amount of built-in woodwork so it will be quite expensive add more speakers at this point. I wish I had the moolah to just load the room/ceiling up with a bunch of extra efficient horn loaded speakers like klipsch in-walls or something.

I am pretty leery of the idea of Auro3D when it seems relatively obsolete already... I just don't see it picking up steam.


For the time being I love 11.2 but with my main speakers being huge spherical horns, sound is quite enveloping on the front soundstage even without the wide and height speakers. I certainly don't "notice" the wides and heights... but may be that is a good thing. The overall soundstage is quite nice tho.

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post #514 of 893 Old 02-27-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

This is the main reason I am hesitating to do anything really more expensive with my current 11.3 channel system. Sticking with the Marantz 8801 for now. I haven't even heard an Atmos theater, but I bet it will be awesome when hollywood really gets the hang of using it and the directors are considering it while making scenes.

My room has a tremendous amount of built-in woodwork so it will be quite expensive add more speakers at this point. I wish I had the moolah to just load the room/ceiling up with a bunch of extra efficient horn loaded speakers like klipsch in-walls or something.

I am pretty leery of the idea of Auro3D when it seems relatively obsolete already... I just don't see it picking up steam.


For the time being I love 11.2 but with my main speakers being huge spherical horns, sound is quite enveloping on the front soundstage even without the wide and height speakers. I certainly don't "notice" the wides and heights... but may be that is a good thing. The overall soundstage is quite nice tho.

I saw Gravity with Atmos and if other movies are as well mixed or push things even further with more elaborate soundscapes that complement the visuals then it will create a much better movie experience than fake 3D imagery (and it won't give you eye strain or headaches either!). It's true that each speaker in the auditorium can become its own "channel" with discrete information coming out of each one.

I'm just not sure yet (since I haven't been to any demos) of DTS-UHD and how it compares to Atmos (as good, better... worse). However, it is the only consumer object based codec available so far. You would think DTS would base it off of their well received Multidimensional Audio (MDA) format.

Anyone building a theater now should strongly consider using timbre matched speakers everywhere (no mismatched makes and models) and not use dipole surrounds anymore. This is due to the fact that the x-y-z directional positioning cues are already in the object mix's metadata instructions and based on the positioning of the overhead heights in relative terms to the wall surrounds and the total amount of speakers detected by the rendering processor... and a really diffuse speaker could muddy that all up.

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post #515 of 893 Old 02-27-2014, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Maybe I'm completely missing the boat here, but will object based surround processing allow for greater flexibility in actual speaker location similar to the Trinnov processing units? If this will allow the consumer to put speakers in general regions of their room and still get a good surround field, then I think it would be adopted quickly.

For example, you have a door where your side surround should go, but you could put one speaker on each side of the door and the processor can deal with it.
You're definitely not missing the point about object-based audio and greater flexibility with speaker layouts. The technology itself is capable of rendering/mapping the mix to any speaker layout (even a soundbar). How the manufacturers implement this capability is another story.

IF a HTiB manufacturer decides that it will render Atmos mixes to standard 5.1 and 7.1 layouts, then users will have to stick to traditional placement. If another manufacturer decided to let you enter approximate speaker locations (azimuth, elevation, distance), then you'll have more flexibility when placinig speakers. If some higher end manufacturers decide to include a calibration mic that can map your speaker locations (like Trinnov does), then you'll not only get greater flexibility but also better accuracy when it comes to imaging.

We'll have to wait and see how various manufacturers handle this aspect of object-oriented audio.

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post #516 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Wow, Dolby Atmos only requires its subs to go down to 40hz. That's sad.
That's only for the surround subs. The screen subs are 31.5 Hz, minimum.

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post #517 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 12:14 AM
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I'm sure when properly implemented, I imagine there should be very little difference between atmos and DTS versions. This is assuming that all sound is lossless and sufficient processor power is available for the steering of sound to various speakers.

No doubt timbre matching the entire theater will be very important to presenting the type of effect intended.

I wonder if entirely new "soundscape" movies will arise. I would love to have the sounds of a rainforest or a storm at the beach replicated. I haven't seen much of this so far with surround sound unless folks around here are aware of some cool discs with this type of content.

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post #518 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 05:45 AM
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Hi,
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

... Guess I'll need to cut back on the wine .......................

Not an easy task here... smile.gif

And to anybody owning a 11.x install I'd recommend a listen on the latest DTS Demo disc of the exceptionnal Dave Steward's "Every Single Night" track, an DTS MA 7.1 encoding optimized for DTS Neo X 11 + filmed in 4K... superbe...

Hugo
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post #519 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 07:20 AM
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As I am in the midst of demoing speakers and a Trinnov processor for room correction and expansion of up to 16 channels for my 7.1 channel system, I'm right in the middle of all this. However, it's been a little more difficult to find surround speakers that can handle the output needed for an objects based surround format like Atmos. In reality, your surround speaker, by itself, is required to be able to output at least 100 db cleanly AT THE LISTENING POSITION for an object based soundtrack at reference level (e.g. an audio cue may be exactly at that one surround speaker location at full output). Not so easy. The requirements before were surround speakers combined getting up to those levels.

Currently I have Quested LT-8s on demo for surrounds and they are barely making 95-100 db at my listening position before giving up. However, they do much better than my current surrounds: Klipsch THX dipoles. I would use the much beefier (and larger) LT-10s for LCRs if I go this route. But the ribbon sound is so much more open and smooth than my current LCRs (with compression drivers). Others to try... But have 5 new subs and a one Seaton for the rears. Am waiting on a demo pairs of mini Catalysts.

Here's a photo of the mess.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

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post #520 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been patiently waiting Jeff for you to post your progress here, this means Spring 2014 May HEMI meet looks doable at your place?
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post #521 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post

Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

... Guess I'll need to cut back on the wine .......................
Not an easy task here... smile.gif

And to anybody owning a 11.x install I'd recommend a listen on the latest DTS Demo disc of the exceptionnal Dave Steward's "Every Single Night" track, an DTS MA 7.1 encoding optimized for DTS Neo X 11 + filmed in 4K... superbe...
Hugo

+1 Hugo, I got that 2014 Demo Disc directly from DTS, It really showed the ability of DTS Neo:X™ going from speaker to speaker.
(I posted my Home Theatre on their facebook wall, they appreciated that and gave me 2 discs as SWAG).
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post #522 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post


As I am in the midst of demoing speakers and a Trinnov processor for room correction and expansion of up to 16 channels for my 7.1 channel system, I'm right in the middle of all this. However, it's been a little more difficult to find surround speakers that can handle the output needed for an objects based surround format like Atmos. In reality, your surround speaker, by itself, is required to be able to output at least 100 db cleanly AT THE LISTENING POSITION for an object based soundtrack at reference level (e.g. an audio cue may be exactly at that one surround speaker location at full output). Not so easy. The requirements before were surround speakers combined getting up to those levels.

Currently I have Quested LT-8s on demo for surrounds and they are barely making 95-100 db at my listening position before giving up. However, they do much better than my current surrounds: Klipsch THX dipoles. I would use the much beefier (and larger) LT-10s for LCRs if I go this route. But the ribbon sound is so much more open and smooth than my current LCRs (with compression drivers). Others to try... But have 5 new subs and a one Seaton for the rears. Am waiting on a demo pairs of mini Catalysts.

Here's a photo of the mess.

Ahh, but for this hobby, it's a beautiful mess. biggrin.gif Pretty sweet theater system you have there.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #523 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I got that 2014 Demo Disc directly from DTS, It really showed the ability of DTS Neo:X™ going from speaker to speaker.
Yup, it's impressive how little leakage there is when listening to sounds coming from one of the matrix extracted heights or wides; sounds pretty much discrete. You'll find the same when object-based audio shows up for us consumers. Assuming the same speaker layout, an upmixed 7.1-channel track can sound surprisingly close to an object-oriented track.

Sanjay
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post #524 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Yup, it's impressive how little leakage there is when listening to sounds coming from one of the matrix extracted heights or wides; sounds pretty much discrete. You'll find the same when object-based audio shows up for us consumers. Assuming the same speaker layout, an upmixed 7.1-channel track can sound surprisingly close to an object-oriented track.

Not from what I've personally heard with movies with Atmos tracks. It's pin point accurate because each speaker location is totally discrete from its neighbor (and it sounds that way too). You can't do that with matrixed surround, especially when the mix is especially busy. When it's just one sound matrixed to a particular speaker location, then it seems more discrete.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #525 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

It's pin point accurate because each speaker location is totally discrete from its neighbor (and it sounds that way too).
It's pin point accurate because each speaker is getting a different signal. But that need not be discrete, just distinct enough for sound to be localized in that direction. This can be easily demonstrated with the Neo:X channel check that Mike mentioned, where each speaker appears to light up discretely even though every speaker (except for centre) is getting a matrix derived signal. That distinct directionality doesn't go away when watching the actual movie on Neo:X encoded Blu-rays, even when the mix is busy.

Matrix will never be discrete (you can never perfectly unscamble an egg) but it can come surprisingly close. The new surround technologies (Auro, Atmos, UHD) will all come with upmixers. Consumers will then be able to compare object-based soundtracks with their channel-based counterparts upmixed to the same speaker layout. That's when they'll hear more similarity than difference.

Sanjay
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post #526 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

However, it's been a little more difficult to find surround speakers that can handle the output needed for an objects based surround format like Atmos. In reality, your surround speaker, by itself, is required to be able to output at least 100 db cleanly AT THE LISTENING POSITION for an object based soundtrack at reference level (e.g. an audio cue may be exactly at that one surround speaker location at full output). Not so easy. The requirements before were surround speakers combined getting up to those levels.
The requirements for home system surround speakers are no different than for 5.1.

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AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #527 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The requirements for home system surround speakers are no different than for 5.1.

I'd disagree. For a point source in a home Atmos or similar set up, a sound sent only to the left side, for example, at reference level may require output to 105 db. Though technically there may not be a requirement, theoretically, you'd need a better surround speaker. In the typical 5.1 soundtrack on a 5.1 system matrixed to7.1, the side surround signal will also play but also the left rear. So, both speakers firing, they sound would reach reference level without the individual speaker working so hard.

Bottom line, I'm looking for a more resilient surround speaker for each channel.

Thanks!

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post #528 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 04:02 PM
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The only sensible and cost effective way i can imagine generating both the sound pressure levels and the amp efficiency (to run cool enough with 20-64 channels)... Is to run horn loaded speakers + class D multichannel amps.

I think generating the SPL with that strategy would be cost effective.

A house with 64 danleys simply aint gonna happen... You gotta have speakers small enough with low enough extension to fit.

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post #529 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

In the typical 5.1 soundtrack on a 5.1 system matrixed to7.1, the side surround signal will also play but also the left rear.
You're describing copying each surround channel to its side and rear speakers. Matrixing 5.1 to 7.1 would send independent signals to side and rear speakers. For the former you can get away with calibrating each side-rear pair as a single speaker (they'll share the workload), but with the latter each of the 4 surround speakers needs to be calibrated individually (to the same SPL as any other speaker - including L/C/R).

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post #530 of 893 Old 02-28-2014, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I'd disagree. For a point source in a home Atmos or similar set up, a sound sent only to the left side, for example, at reference level may require output to 105 db.
How is that any different than a 5.1 system?
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Though technically there may not be a requirement, theoretically, you'd need a better surround speaker. In the typical 5.1 soundtrack on a 5.1 system matrixed to 7.1, the side surround signal will also play but also the left rear.
First, I said same as 5.1. Not sure how 7.1 entered the equation. But OK, if PLIIx sees a 0 dBFS signal in Ls ch (of the 5.1 source), and nothing in the Rs ch, the output to the Ls speaker will be 0 dBFS.
Quote:
Bottom line, I'm looking for a more resilient surround speaker for each channel.
You are welcome to use whatever speakers you like. But they will not be driven any harder than from a 5.1 source.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #531 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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From post I made in " The Beast, Unleashed" build thread:
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

This thread made me do some quick research, looks like 10.x is what Auro is working on for home theatres
http://www.auro-3d.com/system/concept/


Quote:
Top Layer : Situated directly above the listener. Enhances the realism of fly-over effects by creating a bridge with the Height Layer. This combination produces an enveloping sphere or 'cocoon of sound' around the listener.

Height Layer (40° above the Lower Layer): The most important layer in the creation of immersive sound AROUND the listener. The capturing of ambient reflections in this layer allows Auro-3D® to deliver a more natural sound & improve sound source localization.

Lower Layer (0°-20°): 2D horizontal plane where ear-level source sounds are located.
Home Theater (small rooms); Auro 10.1 (+ Top Ceiling / VOG)
Quote:
100% compatibility between all Auro-3D® listening formats have a Height Channel above and around the listener, which is crucial to a fully immersive experience.
This is unattainable with only a Top Layer.

The Cinema (large rooms) get the much more speakers....this brings all the talk of 22 speakers down to reality!

Auro 11.1 (+ Front Height Center)


Auro 13.1 (+ Center Surround & Height Center Surr.)


Basic visual concept:
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post #532 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Some videos explaining, short consumer version:

Longer technical explain

Mixing process:

Dreamorks explain their usage:
doublewing11 likes this.
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post #533 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Some videos explaining, short consumer version:

Thank you mtbdudex!!! These have helped me significantly. Very EXCITING TIMES!!! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #534 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post


As I am in the midst of demoing speakers and a Trinnov processor for room correction and expansion of up to 16 channels for my 7.1 channel system, I'm right in the middle of all this. However, it's been a little more difficult to find surround speakers that can handle the output needed for an objects based surround format like Atmos. In reality, your surround speaker, by itself, is required to be able to output at least 100 db cleanly AT THE LISTENING POSITION for an object based soundtrack at reference level (e.g. an audio cue may be exactly at that one surround speaker location at full output). Not so easy. The requirements before were surround speakers combined getting up to those levels.

Currently I have Quested LT-8s on demo for surrounds and they are barely making 95-100 db at my listening position before giving up. However, they do much better than my current surrounds: Klipsch THX dipoles. I would use the much beefier (and larger) LT-10s for LCRs if I go this route. But the ribbon sound is so much more open and smooth than my current LCRs (with compression drivers). Others to try... But have 5 new subs and a one Seaton for the rears. Am waiting on a demo pairs of mini Catalysts.

Here's a photo of the mess.
 
Keep us posted...............................I'm hoping to have Trinnov implemented this late Spring or early Summer.  I concurr on the ribbion sound being so much more open and smooth than compression drivers!  ;)
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post #535 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Some videos explaining, short consumer version:

Longer technical explain

Mixing process:

Dreamorks explain their usage:

 

 

Great information!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuluwalker View Post


Thank you mtbdudex!!! These have helped me significantly. Very EXCITING TIMES!!! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

 

 

I concur..............outstanding! 

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post #536 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 10:41 AM
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It looks like Auro3D is behind the times and already outdated at least in terms of soundtrack delivery method since it's based off piggybacking on today's channel based structure. Object based surround seems a lot more expandable with more precision because you truly can have each speaker location become an individual channel rather than each wall or ceiling array getting the same blanket information as before. I don't see how they could recreate Gravity's soundtrack, as I heard it in Atmos, with Auro3D and have the same accuracy of sound placement.

Barco ought to stop talking about their partnership with DTS and actually get on board object based surround.

Also, if you're looking at the basic Atmos configuration for the home with the least amount of speakers, you'd have 7.1 plus at least two overhead speakers for a greater sense of space. Auro3D, at least in terms of their diagrams, seems to require a lot more speakers for what they're trying to accomplish.

I could see this as a better than basic object surround speaker configuration: your typical 7.1 layout with wide front side-wall surrounds to better position sounds from on-screen to surround speaker locations plus four overhead height surrounds to create your x/y/z 3D positional points. There are bass management controlled outputs for front subs and surround subs. If you have more room, and the rendering software and soundtrack is capable (hopefully, they are) you can then start multiplying these particular speaker locations so sounds can travel in a much more pin-point accurate manner, more closely matching a commercial object based theater.

Again, I don't see how the industry can deliver this to the home without some kind of modular system of base rendering unit with a certain amount of speaker outputs and then a data-linked add-on unit to expand your speaker configuration if you so choose, especially if they continue to manufacture receivers rather than moving more towards pre-amp/processors and outboard amps.

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post #537 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

It looks like Auro3D is behind the times and already outdated at least in terms of soundtrack delivery method since it's based off piggybacking on today's channel based structure. Object based surround seems a lot more expandable with more precision because you truly can have each speaker location become an individual channel rather than each wall or ceiling array getting the same blanket information as before. I don't see how they could recreate Gravity's soundtrack, as I heard it in Atmos, with Auro3D and have the same accuracy of sound placement.

Barco ought to stop talking about their partnership with DTS and actually get on board object based surround.

Also, if you're looking at the basic Atmos configuration for the home with the least amount of speakers, you'd have 7.1 plus at least two overhead speakers for a greater sense of space. Auro3D, at least in terms of their diagrams, seems to require a lot more speakers for what they're trying to accomplish.

I could see this as a better than basic object surround speaker configuration: your typical 7.1 layout with wide front side-wall surrounds to better position sounds from on-screen to surround speaker locations plus four overhead height surrounds to create your x/y/z 3D positional points. If you have more room, and the rendering software and soundtrack is capable (hopefully, they are) you can then start multiplying these particular speaker locations so sounds can travel in a much more pin-point accurate manner, more closely matching a commercial object based theater.

Again, I don't see how the industry can deliver this to the home without some kind of modular system of base rendering unit with a certain amount of speaker outputs and then a data-linked add-on unit to expand your speaker configuration if you so choose.

Dan - you are more up to speed on Dolby Atmos than me, I can't seem to find their strategic visual that shows roadmap to move from Cinema to Home Theater, I see this on their site.
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/movie/dolby-atmos-details.html

Can you share links and visuals to grasp their plan? Typed words are nice, but visuals or better yet videos to explain would be best.

I'd also like to grasp as your room "down sizes" from large acoustic space, Cinema, to small acoustic space, home theater, how the need for so many discrete speakers diminishes.
In my thinking I can see it is based on both total volume and room L/W/H ratios.
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post #538 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 11:23 AM
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Dolby Atmos commercial spec FWIW.
Dolby_Atmos_Specifications.pdf 1978k .pdf file

Auro is essentially promoting stacked 5.1 with a single overhead speaker. Optional is adding rear center low and rear center high to get to 13.1. I always question why Atmos can generate a convincing object-oriented codec with a single row of speakers around the perimeter of the room and a pair over head (two levels) whereas Auro requires two rows of sides and a single over head speaker (three levels). Auro makes a bit more sense if you were sitting in traditional theater seating where the back of the seating is low and your head (ears) are exposed to 360 degrees of sound. But most of us have big, cushy theater seats with high backs and full head support, essentially blocking a good deal of the sound from the lower level speakers, especially the surrounds.
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File Type: pdf Dolby_Atmos_Specifications.pdf (1.93 MB, 40 views)
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post #539 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 11:25 AM
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I use Neo:X for everything. I think the effect is "airier" and more natural sounding than DSX - less "heavy handed."

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post #540 of 893 Old 03-01-2014, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thx TMcG, so it appears there is no public available road map to go from Cinema to Home Theater?
That document clearly shows HT small acoustic room is outta scope of its scaled L/W and # speakers.
(1st time I've seen that)

Has Dolby hinted when they will make such material available to HT enthusiasts, to whet our appetite?

I "hear you" rolleyes.gif on the lower surround array possible being blocked by seats/headrests/etc.....that would vary for each HT overall height, say maybe a 9-10 ft is minimum for dual layer array to be effective?
Who's studying and establishing those basic guidelines? I hope Barco is, if they want the HT community to get behind their proposal.

Joe - you and I agree on NeoX, as others here have also stated.
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