Moving past 7.1 into 9.1/11.x/3D ObjectAudio in HT via AudysseyDSX/DolbyPLIIz/DTS Neo:X™/Auro-3D - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 893 Old 12-07-2012, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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My Denon 4520CI is installed and in the basement HT, now it's speaker/bracket mounting time!

I had (2) pair of these Vogels BEK100 Speaker Brackets, bought 12+ years ago and never used.
They are rated for 25kg/55lbs, and are robust.


They are very strong, black steel, and can easily support my 17lb Mini-monitors.
http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/bookshelf/paradigm/monitor-series-7/mini-monitor

Will need to make some extension wood bracket to project these past my side wall acoustic panels, that is tomorrow morning project.
Being that they are mounted from the back they will present a clean look.

If I did not own the Vogels BEK100's, I'd be looking at some of the offerings out there that project bookshelf speakers out from the wall and tilt/rotate.
What I saw on Parts Express or cruchfield did not grab me as robust though for bookshelf speakers in the 20lb range.

Something like these from ebay, would need to do some math for 35 degree tilt down - it's probasbly sufficient, I'd rather have 45 tilt down just for safety.
My only issue with these is you'd be able to see the brkt hardware....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Pack-Lot-Steel-Large-Bookshelf-Speaker-Side-Clamping-Wall-Mount-Brackets-Black-/310403424581#vi-content
Quote:
Item specifics
DESCRIPTION
This side clamping bookshelf speaker wall mount has been designed for traditional wood cabinet bookshelf style speakers or powered monitor speakers that did not come with a standard mounting point by the manufacturer or have amplifiers on the back. This mount offers 90 degree swivel both left and right, as well as 35 degrees of tilt. This speaker mount is ideal for mounting your professional bookshelf speakers in your home theater, sports bar, studio, etc.
Quantity: 4
Use this bracket to mount your large bookshelf speakers in your home theater, sports bar, studio, patio, and more.
Solid steel construction
Provides a stable and durable mounting solution for large bookshelf speakers
Side Clamping: will work with speakers from 5” to 11” wide
Optional screw holes on the side clamps for added stabilization of large wood speakers (not required)
Swivels 90 degree left and right
Wall Mounting Plate: 9.5” x 5” (H x W)
Measures 16” from wall to end of the mount
Load Capacity: 44 lbs
Color: Black
Mounting hardware included
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post #62 of 893 Old 12-08-2012, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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The wides are sitting on bar stools with old college books to position them correctly.

On paper and using geometry guide looks correct for improved soundstage width.
However, since I have wide scope non AT screen (10 feet width, 130" diag) my mains are outside that already.

There is actual 26" distance center of mains to wides.
The back corner of the wides limits how close to the wall I can position them.

This opens up using thinnest possible bookshelf speakers, or using those flat screen side speakers, which are 4-5" deep vs my 11" deep monitors to improve the separation and get the wides as close to the wall as possible

Later I'll run Audyssey, I'm really curious to hear the difference.

If my mains were closer together I'd intuitively expect some gains, but my situation is leading me to lower my expectations somewhat for wides.

IMG_3533.jpg
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post #63 of 893 Old 12-08-2012, 10:45 AM
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Im building my hteater now and the plan is to have 11.2. My room is no where near wide enough to have the wides where they should be. Im making up for it by bringing them in front in a column at the correct angle.

Im interested in the new Marantz flagship receiver that just came out that is made to do the 11.2. But ill check again when the theater is completely dont and ready for it.

lll be monitoring this thread for input!
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post #64 of 893 Old 12-08-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

The wides are sitting on bar stools with old college books to position them correctly.
On paper and using geometry guide looks correct for improved soundstage width.
However, since I have wide scope non AT screen (10 feet width, 130" diag) my mains are outside that already.
There is actual 26" distance center of mains to wides.
The back corner of the wides limits how close to the wall I can position them.
This opens up using thinnest possible bookshelf speakers, or using those flat screen side speakers, which are 4-5" deep vs my 11" deep monitors to improve the separation and get the wides as close to the wall as possible
Later I'll run Audyssey, I'm really curious to hear the difference.
If my mains were closer together I'd intuitively expect some gains, but my situation is leading me to lower my expectations somewhat for wides.

(auto stitch on iPhone4 works decent enough)
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Hi Mike,

I think the wides are going to be too close to the mains. I'm assuming the wides are at 60 degrees azimuth from the MLP. You may find it necessary to cheat a little down the wall for best results.

Also there have been some comments that the wides affect center output or widen imaging. IIRC the wides are supposed to derive all their information from the L & R channels and not touch anything going to the center. So, it shouldn't "pull" any center information to the sides. Now if dialog is coming out of the L or R then yes it could be pulled to the side more but, assuming the dialog is suppose to be off axis and coming from the L or R, that shouldn't be distracting. I'm wondering if room accoustics is playing part in some of the problems noted.

The above assumes what you are watching (listening) to has been properely recorded. Don't worry about televison. It's all over the place.

BTW, I've had a 11.1 setup for almost 2 years now.

Regards,
John
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post #65 of 893 Old 12-08-2012, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Blame it on my turing 50 this year. Or my boys distracted me during set up and me not following my layout.

I put them at 45deg not 60 and I started this thread with the layout clearly in post 1.
Will move them to correct location.


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post #66 of 893 Old 12-11-2012, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I've got the wides at correct 60 degree location. They do impeded into the theater space, less deep speakers are desired definitely.
When I re-do my side wall acoustic panels these speakers will be the 5" closer to the wall and acceptable.

Putting the heights up temporary was hard to do, due to acoustic broadband bass traps, so I had to tear those apart and put mtg brkt up.
My 100' speaker 12/2 CL2 wire due tomorrow, thus weekends task is routing the wire.
I'll tuck the wires inside the room length wise bass trap, that will work for height speakers.
Run it down the room height wise bass trap for LH wide speaker, take of the 3/4" thick pine base molding and router it's backside with a channel to hide the wire, then fish it behind the drywall up to the speaker.

Definitely best to do wiring at planning/build time, not after the fact.
IMG_3569.jpg


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post #67 of 893 Old 12-11-2012, 02:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post


BTW, I've had a 11.1 setup for almost 2 years now.
Impressions?
Do you run in full 11.1 mode always?



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post #68 of 893 Old 12-12-2012, 07:08 AM
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Of the few 11.x HT pics I've seen, all have floorstanders or bookshelf speakers as the Front Wides.

Are there reasons not to use in-wall speakers as front wides? If so, what are some of them?

If not, does anyone have pics to share of an 11.x layout with in-walls at that location? Thanks.

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post #69 of 893 Old 12-12-2012, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjlewie View Post

Of the few 11.x HT pics I've seen, all have floorstanders or bookshelf speakers as the Front Wides.

Are there reasons not to use in-wall speakers as front wides? If so, what are some of them?

If not, does anyone have pics to share of an 11.x layout with in-walls at that location? Thanks.

You need to aim the wides towards the MLP, most inwalls I've seen can't do that....

Now, for front heights possibly you could angle them down somewhat and get away with it, but putting side inwalls at the proper angle .... is just easier with freestanding speakers IMO.

I like though the slimness/hidden virtue of inwalls for the wides, so if you built a proper box around them it might work....
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post #70 of 893 Old 12-12-2012, 09:10 AM
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So the question of inwalls and 'height' speakers came up with Chris K. over at the Audyssey facebook page. Chris said that in ceiling speakers are acceptable but I would think you would need to move them more forward to get the 45 degree elevation. Also, speakers with tweeters you can aim would work better.

I used Triad in-CEILING speakers for my wides. These would obviously work well for heights; however if you rotate them 90 degrees and place them on the side walls they work very well pointed at the MLP. Below is the model I'm currently using. I'm rebuilding my columns and will use a Gold Omni SE (I already have them) which is a normal boxed triad in-wall; however I'm using an actuator/hinge system to deploy them during a movie and then lay flat back into the column after.

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/icb8lcr.html
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post #71 of 893 Old 12-12-2012, 09:59 AM
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I have a feeling that you may need to go multiple on the highs if you get too close to the listeners and have speakers that fall off quite much off-axis and work with crossing axises to make sure that you don't get so much from the closest and more of the one on the other side when sitting off axis. 45/45 tends to get quite nearfield with all normal ceiling heights...

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post #72 of 893 Old 12-13-2012, 12:17 AM
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Has anyone tried spacing height channels at a 60degree angle on the ceiling? I wonder what advantages/disadvantes this arangement would have compared to the 45degree angle recommended.
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post #73 of 893 Old 12-13-2012, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proudx View Post

Has anyone tried spacing height channels at a 60degree angle on the ceiling? I wonder what advantages/disadvantes this arangement would have compared to the 45degree angle recommended.

Given that Audyssey normally would say "as high as you can on the front wall" and this tends to be narrower angle both in height and to the sides, I would hazard a guess it's better to err in that direction than going wider. But, that said, it might just be a recommendation based on practicality. Ceiling speakers can be a bit tricky to try, otherwise that would be the thing to do.... give it a try.

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post #74 of 893 Old 12-13-2012, 08:12 AM
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Thanks Mike. I also like the potential of the in wall aesthetic if properly implemented for performance.

Seems like a properly boxed in-wall with a directional tweeter or a similar on-wall could be a potential option for Front wides.

Pauleyc, do you have any pics of your set up to share?

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post #75 of 893 Old 12-13-2012, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleyc View Post

So the question of inwalls and 'height' speakers came up with Chris K. over at the Audyssey facebook page. Chris said that in ceiling speakers are acceptable but I would think you would need to move them more forward to get the 45 degree elevation. Also, speakers with tweeters you can aim would work better.

I used Triad in-CEILING speakers for my wides. These would obviously work well for heights; however if you rotate them 90 degrees and place them on the side walls they work very well pointed at the MLP. Below is the model I'm currently using. I'm rebuilding my columns and will use a Gold Omni SE (I already have them) which is a normal boxed triad in-wall; however I'm using an actuator/hinge system to deploy them during a movie and then lay flat back into the column after.

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/icb8lcr.html

Those look like great solution for wides, they are rated at 4ohms which many cause issues with some AVR's....
Quote:
Nominal impedance 4 ohms
3.2 ohms minimum

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjlewie View Post

Thanks Mike. I also like the potential of the in wall aesthetic if properly implemented for performance.

Seems like a properly boxed in-wall with a directional tweeter or a similar on-wall could be a potential option for Front wides.

Pauleyc, do you have any pics of your set up to share?

Ditto, Pauleyc I'd love to see your set-up, and the "actuator/hinge system " you made.

I'm looking at in-wall by paradigm now, since I've got that brand....Like I said this is a learning experience for me, plus I don't have columns to hide them in...not that I could not add those to my HT, so I'd like to see your's
http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling
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post #76 of 893 Old 12-13-2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Impressions?
Do you run in full 11.1 mode always?
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I found this old post. Jeez it's been almost 3 years.

A lot of the equipment has changed over the years, inclucing the subs, but the main spearkers and their positions are still the same. Some of my comments regarding the surround field might also be influenced by the speaker type.

The theater is 95% movies, and as such, I leave DSX on and forget it. As I said in the post, it's very rare that I hear anything distracting. Usually it's an old movie that has been redone in 5.1 or something on TV from Dish.

I have not done any any serious A-B testing in quite awhile with regards to Heights and/or Wides on and off. I did go back and forth a little just recently with The Dark Knight Rises and the audio sounded pretty darn good either way. redface.gif

At some point I'd like to mount my Heights in the ceiling to get to 45 degrees, but it's a big job. Also, you may notice that my theater is wider than most at 19 feet wide.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/25140#post_18325695

Regards,
John
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post #77 of 893 Old 12-14-2012, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Thx for re-posting that John, it's so buried in the Audyssey thread.....(post #25141 of 58158, close to half way into that huge thread )
I'll check it out and add your subjective comments here for the ongoing summary re-cap of people experiences related to the HT size and layout/etc.
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post #78 of 893 Old 12-16-2012, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I forgot how bulky my screen is, took it down yesterday with my 15 year old's help.
IMG_3579.jpg

Ran the wires behind the upper bass trap and along the LH bass trap, meant taking all the triangles out and then back in again...
IMG_3578.jpg..IMG_3580.jpg

Got the heights mounted and the bass traps all modified/back, the wides wires routed and they are sitting on the bar stools still as temp solution, not sure on final method for them.
IMG_3623.jpg

As for critical listening, lots of combinations going more than 7.1, so will take time.
IMG_3614.jpg..IMG_3615.jpg
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post #79 of 893 Old 12-21-2012, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I've posted this to Chris K in the "Audyssey Tech Talk" facebook page, since got some time over Christmas break I'd like to spend some time comparing the different approaches to enhanced surround sound from a common surround clip standpoint.
This should be fun, I might even get my 15 year old involved for a few minutes before he dives back into the texting world teens live in.
Quote:
Chris - I've got my 7.1 to 11.1 speaker upgrade arrangement done as discussed here prior. Followed your DSX recommendations for location, the heights are mounted permanently as shown, the wides on barstools/books till I make permanent method.
What source material do you recommend for repeated critical review of DSX (wide, height, wide+height) vs Dolby Pro Logic IIz vs DTS Neo:X™ ?

Response Dec-21 http://www.facebook.com/groups/audysseytechtalk/:
Quote:
Looks great Michael!
We often use the attack scene from Pearl Harbor (especially the right to left fly by).
Also, Ch. 2 of Wall*E where he's roaming the empty streets with background music (listen for the improved opening pan from LSurr to front).
Open Range also has a great rain scene that is very immersive.
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post #80 of 893 Old 12-21-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I've posted this to Chris K in the "Audyssey Tech Talk" facebook page, since got some time over Christmas break I'd like to spend some time comparing the different approaches to enhanced surround sound from a common surround clip standpoint.
This should be fun, I might even get my 15 year old involved for a few minutes before he dives back into the texting world teens live in.
Quote:
Chris - I've got my 7.1 to 11.1 speaker upgrade arrangement done as discussed here prior. Followed your DSX recommendations for location, the heights are mounted permanently as shown, the wides on barstools/books till I make permanent method.
What source material do you recommend for repeated critical review of DSX (wide, height, wide+height) vs Dolby Pro Logic IIz vs DTS Neo:X™ ?

 

If you get the chance, try Expendables 2 which has a 7.1 mix specially optimised for DTS Neo:X 11.1. It is very impressive.

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post #81 of 893 Old 01-03-2013, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If you get the chance, try Expendables 2 which has a 7.1 mix specially optimised for DTS Neo:X 11.1. It is very impressive.
I'll try that movie soon.


Some progress on integrating the wides into the walls, RH side, It's been 5 years since I saw these guts.. Determine studs, wires, etc. cut.
.


Ready for drywall, a pocket in the wall, it will be lined with acoustic absorption material.
Bottom will be pine shelf to support the bookshelf speaker, goal is speaker to be flush with the side acoustic panels.


Hopefully this weekend both sides will be finished.

Where are other peoples "upgrade" into 9.1 and 11.1?
Am I a lone duck here?
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post #82 of 893 Old 01-13-2013, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Some more progress on integrating the wides into the side walls:
My LH wall is outside foundation wall, it is engineered concrete with concrete studs that are 9 1/2" deep and 24" center, so I built a box to insert into the cavity as shown.
Leftover 3/4" thick OSB works nice, it takes drywall screws pretty good.
For the back I had 1/2" birch ply, so used that, since I did not have a 21" x 12" piece of OSB, wood scraps always come in handy.
Glue and screwed, box 100% sealed.
photo%25201.JPG . photo%25202.JPG

I had to contend with HVAC 8" dia pipe, so the box "wrapped" around that for maximum position ability - angle wise - of the speaker
Used pressure treated 2 x 4 for top/bottom support, as they contact the concrete studs, and then able to also screw into the RH side concrete stud, it is faced with 1" thick wood strip for drywall attaching.
Box is very sturdy in there.

Here is RH side, primed shows some spots I'll add more spackle and re-do, hey I'm not the best at mudding rolleyes.gif
photo%25203.JPG

Lesson learned:
Honestly, making the speaker box shelf outside of the wall and then "plugging it in" was much faster on the LH side than building it "in wall" as I did on the RH side, a small lesson learned.
With MLK day Jan 21st (next weekend is 3 day break) hopefully I'll have this done Tues Jan-22nd.

Speaker wire routing wise:
-LH side: I ended up for LH side going below the pine baseboard molding, then thru the bottom into the cavity the box is located and back out thru the back of the box.
-RH side: I was able to snake the speaker wire inside the staggered 2 x 4's wire "fishing wire" and my 6 year old skinny arm smile.gif

>>key is taking pictures of everything during build phase, to be able to identify "how to do" for future changes
IMG_5754.JPG . IMG_5800.JPG
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post #83 of 893 Old 01-13-2013, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex 
Where are other peoples "upgrade" into 9.1 and 11.1?
Am I a lone duck here?

As far as I've gotten is scanning Craigslist for multi channel power amps - need to power LCRs to be able to support 9 channel. Still on the fence whether to do wides or heights.
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post #84 of 893 Old 01-13-2013, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

As far as I've gotten is scanning Craigslist for multi channel power amps - need to power LCRs to be able to support 9 channel. Still on the fence whether to do wides or heights.

Brad are you going to do more SEOS speakers for your wides/or heights? I have really wanted to build the SEOS design but I just don't see how I can easily integrate them into my existing setup without changing a bunch of other stuff such as going to an AT screen etc.. However I have added my Energy C-100's as wides through my 4311 and so far I am very happy with what they add to the experience! I also want to at least temporarily set up some heights just to see. I couldn't find it in your thread but what Receiver are you running?
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post #85 of 893 Old 01-13-2013, 02:05 PM
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mtb, have I missed your impressions on heights vs. wides vs. standard 5.x/7.x? I've been following along, but I'm a long way away from being able to do anything with what I learn here smile.gif I'm still anxious to hear about your results, though.

Also, any word on recommended demo material?

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #86 of 893 Old 01-13-2013, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

mtb, have I missed your impressions on heights vs. wides vs. standard 5.x/7.x? I've been following along, but I'm a long way away from being able to do anything with what I learn here smile.gif I'm still anxious to hear about your results, though.

Also, any word on recommended demo material?

Demo material - so far I've gotten these recommendations:
A-DSX:
1) the attack scene from Pearl Harbor (especially the right to left fly by).
2) Ch. 2 of Wall*E where he's roaming the empty streets with background music (listen for the improved opening pan from LSurr to front).
3) Range also has a great rain scene that is very immersive.

DTS Neo:X
4) Expendables 2 which has a 7.1 mix specially optimized for DTS Neo:X 11.1. It is very impressive

I'll make the list ongoing, and re-post into the 2nd post.

I'm leaving my subjective reviews till the wides are in the permanent space, for now I do agree the wides are a bigger impact than heights..
I'll also need to program my remote to go directly to the various surround formats instead of digging thru the menus.

Austin Jerry made a good matrix, I'll go over the user manual and make my own
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/1710#post_22712731
fab4cfa5_4520CinemaModes.jpeg
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post #87 of 893 Old 01-14-2013, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Still on the fence whether to do wides or heights.
You already have columns at the wide locations, so might as well start there. Plus, if you use Neo:X instead of DSX, it will help bridge the gap between your sides and fronts.

Sanjay
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post #88 of 893 Old 01-14-2013, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Where are other peoples "upgrade" into 9.1 and 11.1?
Am I a lone duck here?

Not alone but much further along. I am in the planning and design phase for HT 2.0, so wiring for 11.4 is in the plan.

Your retrofit box solution for the wides is clever. Will the speaker integrate with the acoustic panel somehow? Probably best to just wait and see. Looking forward to how it turns out.

The Denon 4520 is also very interesting, but at the rate I do these things, someone will have a discrete 11.x receiver and maybe even 11.1 blu-rays when I'm ready to play.

Clearly, I'm a man of action - just give me a few minutes to think about it.
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post #89 of 893 Old 01-15-2013, 01:54 PM
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post #90 of 893 Old 01-15-2013, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If you get the chance, try Expendables 2 which has a 7.1 mix specially optimised for DTS Neo:X 11.1. It is very impressive.

Does a soundtrack have to be mixed in 11.1 to use DTS Neo:X?

I saw the graph and it appears that DSX is the only way to get 11?
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