Fall Frenzy, Curve Frenzy, Man of Steel theater (You pick) - BIGmouthinDC hits the road again - destination Columbus, Indiana - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

(The key when searching was to search for 3 7/8 - not 3.875)

Ahhh - yup - thats what I did :-) searched for 3.875.

Thanks!


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post #182 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 06:50 AM
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Up here in Canada, HD has Ridgid hole saws. You buy the arbour then buy whatever hole saw size you want. A bit pricey, but they have all the sizes up to about 6".
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post #183 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

it is a 3.875 hole saw, I think I ordered it from Amazon. It's funny I think I've used three different cans from Lowes and they never seem to sell the size hole saw that fits their lights.
On this project I'm using the 4 inch cans with the connection box on the side, they are shorter than the 3 inch can which has the connections on the top. AND the connection box is HUGE in comparison. The soffits are 5 1/4 tall.
Yes on rope, still need to bang up lip on ethe front edge of the MDF to create a channel for the rope. Something about 2 inches tall.
For the record on the other three walls I cut all the holes when the MDF was on the ground, I can only take overhead cutting long enough for one photo op.

Thanks for the info. Those are the exact same lights I am using in my soffit. My soffits are 5 1/2" high, so I was very happy to see that I am not the only one with a "short" soffit. I am curious to see what you do for the lip that will hold the rope light. I have been playing with a couple of ideas, but nothing that I am crazy about yet.

Off to Amazon to order a hole saw!


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post #184 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Today's big task was hooking up and installing the 14 reccessed lights.

I like to test them before I slide them up into the ceiling.

Zone 1 of 3, these are over the screen

DSCN0386.jpg

These are my current favorite lights for limited headroom. Pretty easy to install lights. A Lowes Utilitech 4 inch can. Much bigger hook up box than the 3 inch can which has the connections on top.

DSCN0390.jpg


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post #185 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 07:43 PM
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Hey Big - I know I asked in another thread what bulbs you are using - Just wondering if you are using the same for this build?


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post #186 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 07:58 PM
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I can tell you just by looking at them that those are GU10 bulbs, either 35 watts each or most likely 50 watts each.
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post #187 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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35 watts. What is curious is our shipment (Lowes.com) came in two boxes. One box of 4 and on those it said bulb included and they had 50 watts. The other 10 said bulb sold separately and we have a case of 35 watts on order. Not sure what is the newer version they both had the same SKU. Just a FYI, it is rare to find enough on the shelf at one store to do a theater.


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post #188 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyk36 View Post

Hey Big - I know I asked in another thread what bulbs you are using - Just wondering if you are using the same for this build?

Here is the info on the bulbs we ordered at 1000bulbs.com

MR16JDR-9817FP Hikari JDR-9817FP - 35 Watt - MR16 - Flood - Frosted Capsule - GU10 Base - 2,000 Life Hours - 120 Volt.


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post #189 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 10:21 PM
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Cool - thanks guys!

Question - do you guys ever sleep? Seems like I see posts at all hours of the day and night!


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post #190 of 983 Old 11-23-2012, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyk36 View Post

Cool - thanks guys!
Question - do you guys ever sleep? Seems like I see posts at all hours of the day and night!

biggrin.gif 3am-7am is more than enough for me!


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post #191 of 983 Old 11-24-2012, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

You're welcome! Bang for the buck, you cannot beat the QSC 322ua's. You would be very hard pressed to find units anywhere near as capable as those for the price.
What's the advantage of using the QSC Audio gear? Their website has a lot of detail,but I could not make out the bottom line advantage of their sound processing that an Audyssey-capable preamp would not also offer.


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post #192 of 983 Old 11-24-2012, 09:33 AM
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Watching with interest as you are basically in my back yard. Looking good and to have someone with Big's rep and experience involved is the icing on the cake. Excellent work and progress.

Regards,

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post #193 of 983 Old 11-24-2012, 10:42 AM
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Thanks RTRose! PM sent! smile.gif


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post #194 of 983 Old 11-24-2012, 12:31 PM
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An Audyssey pre-amp won't even come close. OTOH, the QSC gear requires a professional and professional sound measurement equipment. With Audyssey, just keep pressing the "calibrate" button until you like the results.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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post #195 of 983 Old 11-24-2012, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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After working on this space nine days straight I took a day off. Went to Indianapolis Art Museum for design ideas and had lunch at Fountain Square.

DSCN0393.jpg

DSCN0449.jpg

DSCN0429.jpg

Look at the design ideas for molding in these frames

DSCN0430.jpg

DSCN0431.jpg

DSCN0432.jpg

Art deco

DSCN0408.jpg

couple of buddies

DSCN0460.jpg

DSCN0461.jpgobject

I see an idea for a door relief in this (in the middle)

DSCN0456.jpg

interesting

DSCN0457.jpg

NOT a table you would want to pull a chair and sit at

DSCN0426.jpg

Finally

DSCN0474.jpg

House special fajitas, Steak, Chicken, Chorizo sausage, and shrimp mixed.

DSCN0471.jpg

Indiana Humor

DSCN0476.jpg


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post #196 of 983 Old 11-24-2012, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

An Audyssey pre-amp won't even come close. OTOH, the QSC gear requires a professional and professional sound measurement equipment. With Audyssey, just keep pressing the "calibrate" button until you like the results.

To carry on what Dennis mentioned, here are a few questions for thought. What if you don't get a result you like, and how do you know if it is accurate? How could we change it so we do "like" it? Do we just take Audyssey's word for it?

@DIY...Audyssey is not usually correct. It has come close in rooms I have done using it, but that's after I messed with it and used a lot of gear to measure the response (Only the pro version and a subEQ combined with it...I won;t even touch the onboard software as that comes nowhere near close). I have yet to perform an Audyssey calibration, both onboard and pro, that I haven't had to adjust some big issues to get it somewhat into alignment. It doesn't work very well without a lot of help. It is NOT the magic bullet...not by a long shot.

Shawn Byrne
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post #197 of 983 Old 11-25-2012, 05:00 AM
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Thanks for the response. One of the factors, I suppose, one has to weigh in before spending ~$6K for QSC gear and service. OTOH, on the Audyssey thread, here is what is claimed:
"A common misunderstanding about Audyssey stems from differences between reference and preference. It is really important to understand the basic goal of the Audyssey technology: To solve room acoustics problems and the sound degradations they cause. The goal of Audyssey is not to shape the sound to your preference, but rather to shape the sound to reference.

Audyssey measures your room and corrects the acoustical problems based on those measurements. The reference point for this acoustical correction is based upon the only known standard: The mixing room calibration curve used in all film production, and some—but not all—music production.

Assuming there are no problems during the calibration process, what you end up with is a reference calibration. If you have some personal sound preferences, these are outside of what Audyssey is responsible for. Some people want more bass, while others complain there is too much bass. Some people want flat high frequencies, while others do not. These variances represent the difference between reference and preference. "

Finally, this post http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/4500_100#post_19446901 shows the results of Audyssey XT32 for equalizing subs. The results are quite amazing.

So, as long as the goal of making it sound to reference is achieved, it should be good enough because that is what the director intended the audio to sound like, shouldn't it?

Also, why use a rubber underlayment/OSB on a concrete slab in the basement? What is the sound source that is being isolated? Unless one lives next to a busy freight train track, it is not clear what purpose it is serving.


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post #198 of 983 Old 11-25-2012, 08:51 AM
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Actually, that's the point I was making. Audussey IS NOT close to reference. That's what I usually have to adjust. Audyssey still takes a lot of work to make it reference. I have been working with it for almost 6 years. I have yet to run it and it does it correctly. In all honesty, the marketing should read preference instead of reference. Don't get me wrong, I'll do an Audyessy calibration, but it STILL takes as much work to deal with it as it would the QSC gear, and the results are not the same as it would be with the QSC. Once I am in a room calibrating, folks finally understand the versatility and right decision of the QSC gear. Everytime I leave an Audyssey calibration, there's always some issue I could not resolve due to its severe limitations.

The floor...hmmmm. You got HVAC in the house? You have other noises in the house? The house is attached to the concrete. Concrete is an extremely efficient xmtr of sound....12,000 ft/s. all that sound from the house comes into your room via the concrete floor. The question you need to ask yourself is, do I want to do this right or what you may think is "good enough". This is the pot calling the kettle black, but websites are FULL of misinformation.

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post #199 of 983 Old 11-25-2012, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

Actually, that's the point I was making. Audussey IS NOT close to reference. That's what I usually have to adjust. Audyssey still takes a lot of work to make it reference. I have been working with it for almost 6 years. I have yet to run it and it does it correctly. In all honesty, the marketing should read preference instead of reference. Don't get me wrong, I'll do an Audyessy calibration, but it STILL takes as much work to deal with it as it would the QSC gear, and the results are not the same as it would be with the QSC. Once I am in a room calibrating, folks finally understand the versatility and right decision of the QSC gear. Everytime I leave an Audyssey calibration, there's always some issue I could not resolve due to its severe limitations.
I am responding in this thread because DIY PM'd me and asked me to offer my thoughts. I have not read the whole thread, and I am only responding to the discussion about Audyssey.

To a certain extent, I agree that Audyssey is not a perfect solution. It's a generalized solution attempting to correct some very specific and unique room acoustic issues. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes users really like the results, other times, not so much. I also agree that Audyssey most often doesn't get the optimal results. In fact, I think it is very important to verify and optimize Audyssey with measurements. If you read the link DIY posted, you'll see I did just that.

IME, Audyssey almost always get the crossovers wrong. It measures the -3 dB point of the speakers in the room. However, the -3 dB point at 75 dB is almost always different than the -3 dB point at 100 or 105 dB. I find that I very often need to raise the crossovers set by Audyssey.

Also, Audyssey often gets the subwoofer Distance setting wrong. It measures the subwoofer in isolation, checking the acoustic distance based on the arrival time of the signal through the subwoofer system. However, it never goes back and *measures* the blend of the subwoofer(s) and the speakers. I usually find that an adjustment of the subwoofer Distance setting is necessary to optimize the blend. Sometimes it's just a few dB, sometimes it's huge, as much as 20 dB.





Still, in all, these are relatively small problems, and they can be discovered with inexpensive measurement gear, and corrected with a little insight into how the system works. Once these issues are corrected, Audyssey's EQ provides very "flat" response, (which is what I think you mean by "reference.") Above the mid-bass, Audyssey does very little. It sets a flat midrange target curve and a HF roll-off of 3 dB above 10 kHz. I admit Audyssey doesn't have much adjustment capability, but there's not a lot to adjust there. It does a pretty good job of hitting it's targets:



Some users may not "prefer" a flat response, but if they want a rising bass response, that is what Dynamic EQ is for.

Can a "professional and professional sound measurement equipment" do a better job? Yeah, probably, although that comes at the cost of a "professional and professional sound measurement equipment." The cost differential between a full-bore QSC system plus the labor to implement it vs. an Audyssey based system can be *HUGE*! For a guy who's internet handle is "DIYHomeTheater", it would seem like Audyssey XT32 plus an inexpensive measurement system, and some time spent learning how to use it, would be a much higher value proposition. I know it was for me.

Craig
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Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."


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post #200 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 12:58 AM
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Craig,

In addition to the problems you have noted I have experienced several additional issues. One of which is setting distances wrong for many if not all speakers. This is quite evident in playback (and the pro version at that). Further, it has a tendency to also deal incorrectly with polarization. I dealt with an issue several years ago where Audyssey Pro was unable to resolve a boundary gain issue for the left front speaker. If a more robust system had been incorporated, this would have been no issue. Once again, audible in playback. For a room where people spend tens of thousands of dollars, DIY or not, are all these potential issues "good enough"? Maybe for some, maybe for all? I also disagree that the mid range does not need work. IME, it almost always does. For those without measurement gear, and given the issues identified, which almost always appear, how will one know when it is "good enough" or if Audyssey missed the mark? Do we just cross our fingers after spending $20,000 or more on construction and equipment and hope for the best? Audyssey can do a fair job, and I do still actively recommend it given certain parameters and budgetary constraints, but always with the understanding of the limitations. Lastly, once multiple rows and side speakers are brought into the equation, Audyssey picks up its bags and says "see ya" as is the case whose thread this is. The one factor Audyssey has always gotten right is that it successfully brought the importance of acoustics into the mainstream. I don't want to sound overly harsh on Audyssey. It is what it is, but once you've drank a glass of the good stuff, it's just kinda hard to go back. Just my two cents.

Anyway, let's let Vic have his thread back and discuss this in a different thread. smile.gif

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post #201 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 08:19 AM
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Off topic, but Big visits Columbus Indiana, takes a day off goes to Indianapolis (a city I visit on a regular basis) and finds a good place to eat that I have not heard or or seen and makes me want to go there for eats. Big can do EVERYTHING. Next thing we will see is Big in a red convertible with spiky blonde hair doing a tour of home theaters and Mexican restaurants. Dinner and a movie. Hey wait a minute? Hasn't that been done before? wink.gif

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post #202 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 08:23 AM
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Off topic, but Big visits Columbus Indiana, takes a day off goes to Indianapolis (a city I visit on a regular basis) and finds a good place to eat that I have not heard or or seen and makes me want to go there for eats. Big can do EVERYTHING. Next thing we will see is Big in a red convertible with spiky blonde hair doing a tour of home theaters and Mexican restaurants. Dinner and a movie. Hey wait a minute? Hasn't that been done before? wink.gif
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Is this the same Big we have caught glimpses of before?
If so; I am having trouble visualizing the spiky blonde hair ??
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post #203 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 08:38 AM
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This should help. I know I had trouble as well.

HatHair.jpg

Regards,

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post #204 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 09:29 AM
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The Mexican food must have been real good, or real bad because there have been no updates on their progress since.


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post #205 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 09:34 AM
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Well in a sound isolated room there is limited air movement as well or at least tightly controlled airflow. If one of the vents/doors was sealed could have spelled the end for both of them and no one would have heard their screams for help.

Regards,

RTROSE


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Now a Certified Carpet Counselor and Plumbing Counselor (Self given titles - pay no attention).
Enjoying my "almost done" theater.
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post #206 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

Well in a sound isolated room there is limited air movement as well or at least tightly controlled airflow. If one of the vents/doors was sealed could have spelled the end for both of them and no one would have heard their screams for help.
Regards,
RTROSE

All is good biggrin.gif Busy these two days harnessing as much as electricity we possibly can for getting unlimited power to the theater and equipment room!!



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post #207 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 09:52 AM
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IME, Audyssey almost always get the crossovers wrong. It measures the -3 dB point of the speakers in the room. However, the -3 dB point at 75 dB is almost always different than the -3 dB point at 100 or 105 dB. I find that I very often need to raise the crossovers set by Audyssey.
Also, Audyssey often gets the subwoofer Distance setting wrong. It measures the subwoofer in isolation, checking the acoustic distance based on the arrival time of the signal through the subwoofer system. However, it never goes back and *measures* the blend of the subwoofer(s) and the speakers. I usually find that an adjustment of the subwoofer Distance setting is necessary to optimize the blend. Sometimes it's just a few dB, sometimes it's huge, as much as 20 dB.

I wish I knew more about calibration to the point of correcting things myself, but after I looked at speaker settings POST-Audyssey, the settings seemed odd to me. The crossovers were all very different than what I expected, and things like the sizes of the speakers were almost always changed to small. (I think I noticed in your other thread you mentioning a point about why is there for a need for full size speakers in a surround setup with subs) But the one glaringly obvious thing was the subwoofer volume. Every time I ran it, the volume was too low. I needed to raise each of my subs db levels to get it to where I thought was the sweet spot. As far as listening, the one thing I do notice about the XT32 calibration was how crystal clear the vocals were. The front sound stage sounded very natural to me. If I knew what I was doing, I'd probably invest in gear and figure out how to tune my settings to get better results. To be honest, I need to do this with my projector too, but I also don't know how.


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post #208 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Damelon, Was that Antique Ruby we used at your place for the soffits? After putting all this work into the rounded soffits here we don't intend to paint them black.


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post #209 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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The Mexican food must have been real good, or real bad because there have been no updates on their progress since.

How exciting can it be to look at pictures of outlets and fishing wires in the wall? we should get back to real things like columns soon. Then the wall treatments and monster door.


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post #210 of 983 Old 11-26-2012, 10:41 AM
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How much longer are you in town for BIG? I need to pay a visit to this build since I'm only about 45 minutes away.


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