The Larch Theater (a not-a-19.6-system) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 589 Old 05-29-2013, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I am adding a 2nd layer to find out - one side done, all the pieces for the other side cut before going to work to make it faster this evening. Caulked the edge too... I'm turning into a caulking loony. eek.gif

Typically enough, the insulation that is the closest to Safe'n'Sound isn't the one of that brand that the stores carry... everything I need seems to be odd and hard to find... No hurry on that, I don't have to insulate those compartments before starting the parging(?) of the walls.

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post #92 of 589 Old 05-29-2013, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Improved bass dampening was also present in the new measurement. No very apparent changes compared to last curve, so none or within measurement error range. Going for a third layer thus out of the question.

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post #93 of 589 Old 05-30-2013, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Some candy arrived:
a1or.jpg

This is four of the smallest model surround, ambience1. My intention is to ceiling mount them, though. cool.gif
(They are very small, the box is only a foot long.)

Paintjob is excellent on them, will be a big pity to repaint them black. Perhaps that "rubberpaint" whatever it's called could be an option? Making it removable later if needed.

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post #94 of 589 Old 06-02-2013, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Some parging done. This is some kind of primer parging, that's redcolored to make it easier to distinguish from other layers.
avs20.jpg

Think I'll keep working on this side before opening up the riser floor on the other side as well. I'm soooo happy that I didn't glue it (for once).

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post #95 of 589 Old 06-02-2013, 07:48 PM
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Hi Nightlord
Those joists are blowing my mind! Not only the span and the spacing, but the nailing plate joining two pieces of joist together (you left that little detail out, before eek.gif)!!! So you are storing a lot of balloons and bubble rap up there? biggrin.gif

I'm looking at the position of the door and the partition wall...you can't flex a 2x6 (shorter than writing 165 x 45) to get it in? Take the door off if it is in the way. Personally I would scab a full length 2 x 6 onto the existing 2 x 6, or even a 2 x 4 to beef up the existing joist (2x4 would clear the blocking and DW)...while it is open. This would be glued on with construction adhesive and screwed with #10 x 3" screws (on a bit of an angle so the point doesn't come through) in a "W" pattern with a 12" OC. Pull them together with a threaded bar clamp before screwing...and move the one or two clamps along. If you really can't get a full length in, use the longest you can and scab it to cross the nailing plate. Usually I try to get the length between the walls, plus the depth of one pocket. Get one end up and in and the other end up and slide it back half the pocket depth. In a floor application, I would use 3/8" carriage bolts in W pattern 12" OC with glue. For your needs the screws are enough (you are adding to something that is already staying up!)...and cheaper...and faster.

For the new ceiling joists. A double 2x6 is more or less equivalent to a single 2x8 for loading. I had a ceiling on my upper floor that the previous idiot had decided to use as floor in an attic conversion. These joists were actually the collar ties for the roof rafters. This space was used as a bedroom for tenants renting the floor. These collar ties were only 2x4!!! Yes it was shaped like a saucer. But it did not come down. Did I mention the span was 16'?

If you could get a full length 2x6 in, long enough to sit at least 1 1/2" on each new wall, you would probably be OK holding OSB or MDF and two layers of DW if you could use a 12" or 16" OC. Double 2x6 if you are stuck on 24" OC. If you can't get the full length in... Use the longest length plus filler and laminate a second layer, reversing the joint. Glued and screwed. Build these on the floor and raise them up into the joist space on their sides and store them there (with sky hooks rolleyes.gif) while you build the walls. This way you don't have as much fighting to get them into position with the "smaller" room.

What was that about the white smoke from the first BBQ of the season? Seriously, you don't BBQ year 'round? I have heavier cotton T-shirts for winter. I thought Swedes were tougher than that! biggrin.gif

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post #96 of 589 Old 06-03-2013, 12:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Roof tiles, books, furniture, line array speakers, a number of cubicmeters of soft toy animals...

Well, just as in your example, these are the bottom part of the roof trusses as well. There's a single beam from the middle of them going straight to the top.

Yeah, plan A is to take off the door and try to angle them in. Don't want to kill my bushes doing it, so they have to be angled up quite a bit and I'm not sure how managable the are weight-wise. Plan B could be to take the inner roof off above the inner wall and try to slide them in above it, but the attic hatch is in the way there. Same with plan C to get them in through the next untreated "compartment", but I have to take down the drain and such outside then. With three plans, I hope one can work.
2x8 is possible to use as well. I have been thinking about having twice as many and that's 24".

I could BBQ all year long, but why wear the novelty down? It belongs to the warm period, methinks.

8x 25-kilo sacks more for parging purchased now. The ordinary one now, not the red.

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post #97 of 589 Old 06-04-2013, 06:58 AM
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I'm guessing that I'm not the only one that missed the other nailing plate in the middle of the span that is mostly covered by the 2x2 blocking (which carries the T & G where it is cut for the post). biggrin.gif So this is a "king post truss" where the load on the floor is actually supported by a post suspended from the apex of the two rafters and the main stress on the "joist" or bottom cord is tension. I slept better last night not worrying about 2 tonnes of stuff falling on those speakers, I mean people! rolleyes.gif Now back to the theater build! I'm fun at parties too.

Knowing the final sound levels with The Larch 1.0 and seeing the sound levels at each stage of the rebuild, you are doing an amazing service for everyone with sound leakage concerns, trying to sound proof their own HT. This is the first R & D "real world" HT project that I've seen which will show actual measurements demonstrating what each material adds to the envelope and the effect on frequencies both inside and out! Thank you for sharing your findings!!! Isn't there a research grant you can apply for? smile.gif

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post #98 of 589 Old 06-04-2013, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm happy you (and everyone else) can sleep better now. smile.gif Yes, you're spot on about the 2x2's. I'm just happy I realized their function myself before I tried removing them. biggrin.gifeek.gifbiggrin.gif

No, you're right. People heal, speakers break. biggrin.gif

Well, everyone looking at my measurements, do keep in mind that so far I have only changed about 4/7 of the builing - in the theater end. I hope it can be enough, but otherwise that part of the rebuild will be next year. So, the number are perhaps not as good as they could be - given flanking issues though the old.

Yeah, I'm sort of irritated that this information is so hard to come by and very often questionable, so while I'm doing the measurements for my own benefit/learning, I'm happy to provide them.

Starting to get the hang of how much water for the parging... and how to fling it onto the wall. Thought it would take longer to learn, but the main trick seems to be to do it slower than you think - being a golfer I have no problem accelerating the wrists. cool.gif

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post #99 of 589 Old 06-05-2013, 01:23 PM
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The block looked pretty clean so dirt shouldn't be an issue for sticking. Did you wet the wall prier to application? Dry block will suck the water out of the parging, creating a "dry bond". Slower troweling will squeeze more water to make the bond but a damp block would be better and stronger. A brick layer I used to know used to put just a small squirt of dish soap into the mix to help the bond; I think it acted as a wetting agent.

You are making me feel guilty about the pace I'm moving on my pile of bricks! Keep it up! I'm getting motivated.biggrin.gif

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post #100 of 589 Old 06-05-2013, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I soaked (hosed) it several times before, and I've watered it several times a day afterwards. I also brushed it before to get rid of loose parts.

Dish soap breaks surface tension. Might be a very good idea. Might test it tomorrow.

Well, I'm on vacation this week, so it's moving along faster than it will soon. Tomorrow I'll probably have to cut the hedge as well as doing this. But I have completed the 1st layer on the left wall and it will be three days on the first part tomorrow, so I can add a second. Have begun a little on the left, but I haven't removed the riser floor there, so it's only half primed, so I can't do very much more until I have completed the right side and put the floor back there so I can move furniture again.

avs21.jpg

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post #101 of 589 Old 06-07-2013, 12:37 AM
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Looking good! Chip out the bottom where the bottom of the wall goes before it gets too hard.

OK, I'm feeling up to it. Think I'll parge my addition's foundation tomorrow. If it stops raining... I've only been putting it off for two years now. "Practice what you preach," and all that! smile.gif

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post #102 of 589 Old 06-07-2013, 01:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I've got plastic bags lying on the floor, so I hope getting rid of the fall-off won't be so hard even if dried.

I prefer Master Yoda: "Do, or do not - there is no try."

Best of luck on the no rain.

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post #103 of 589 Old 06-07-2013, 09:18 PM
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Thank Yoda for friends! My friend from Calgary showed up Thursday night, so I had to get something done to take advantage of the "free" labour! Right? Looked at the foundation, I opted for plan "B". Ordered 13 sheets of 4' x 8' cement board and screwed it on instead of the parging. We dug a foot down around the bottom and had the 6 sheets cut and installed in 4 hours. Then moved on to the wine cellar and got half of it done. Unfortunately the cedar distributor dropped my order of 20' 2 x 6 cedar for my deck railings "somewhere" unknown. Not sure how any of this gets the theater started. Oh yes, it keeps the spousal unit happy! biggrin.gif

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post #104 of 589 Old 06-09-2013, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Hope your wood have found it's way home.

Other than that, that sounds like a good way not to get return visitors. biggrin.gif

Vacation week over now. 1-2 sacks left to complete left wall - I'm getting better all the time, so I get less and less area out of each sack. Seems like I'll end up adding about a ton to the walls - that has to have some effect (~20x25 kilo sacks per side)

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post #105 of 589 Old 06-10-2013, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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One bag of insulation (inferior data to what I'd wanted, but no-one will order home the correct one for me when I only (currently) want one bag of it) bought on the lunch break. With wall#1 nearing completion of 2nd layer, my guess is that the 'holes' will yet again - together with other possible flankings - be the weak point, so it's getting time to fill them up and put another drywall in front of that.

After that, I guess I'll have to put the floor back on that side - move "all" the speakers and furniture again and try to open the floor up on the other side to parge that side too. That's the neighbor-side, so I have one walls experience now before going at that one. Timetable to finish this by the end of the month is slightly in question with no more vacation coming up, though.

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post #106 of 589 Old 06-11-2013, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Decision taken - the foam on the front wall will come down again and I'll parge that wall properly too. Measurements, ears and fingertips all told me that now that side is worse than the one just completed. I can always foam it up again later if I want too, but I think getting half a ton of cement up on that wall is of higher importance than keeping the foam due to the hard work getting it up.

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post #107 of 589 Old 06-11-2013, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Won't come a specific measurement on how much worse it becomes without foam - I got a blister from the job of removing the foam so I switched job and started priming the part that I had the foam down on, so that particular measurement is now smoked. Foam was doing a good job of everything but the low range, I think, so this is specifically aimed at improving the subwoofer situation given that they will be standing in that side - if one closed cabinet front with 2x9" can rock the place enough to be felt, those six longthrow 12" will do more "damage". biggrin.gif

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post #108 of 589 Old 06-15-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Front wall devoid of foam and primed now. "Compartemts" on right hand side stuffed with 3" insulation and covered with another layer of drywall. Will male it triple-leaf, I know, but I think this will be one of the cases where the benefits can outweigh the drawbacks as the middle layer can be made very heavy. Triple drywall is quite possible.

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post #109 of 589 Old 06-17-2013, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Finished off my last 4 sacks yesterday, so a total of 250kgs up (150kg primer, 100kg parging)... given how much I've covered, I guess this wall will end up just shy of a ton with two layers of parging. I've had my ideas about three for that wall, but that's probably excessive and I think I don't need that extra delay either.

Will pick up another 8-10 sacks on the way home today.

Will need more caulk as well, closing those holes eat caulk faster then one could believe.

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post #110 of 589 Old 06-17-2013, 04:46 AM
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post #111 of 589 Old 06-17-2013, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Some pics would be nice....wink.gif
Sure!

It isn't much to show... really doesn't look much more different from before except the drywall is further out:
avs22.jpg

The parging of the front wall looks exactly like parging of the right wall... nothing exciting...

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post #112 of 589 Old 06-17-2013, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Another one:
avs23.jpg

As you can see... far from everyone has the luxory to work in an empty room, have to work around all the gear and furniture all the time... Doesn't look like it will be a theater at the moment, more like a mine or something...

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post #113 of 589 Old 06-18-2013, 06:48 AM
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I got a flash back to a Star Wars movie when they were in the compactor. Do feel the walls closing in on you? biggrin.gif

Now imagine doing work like parging every day and having some one ask if you work out in the Gym every day! rolleyes.gif

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post #114 of 589 Old 06-18-2013, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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*LOL!*

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post #115 of 589 Old 06-24-2013, 01:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Front wall parging - layer one complete. Also took the time to close the four holes on the other side.

Will pick up a quarter-ton more sacks today. If I counted correctly, I've got 2500lbs up on the walls thus far.

Closing off the top of the front is not something I look forward too, there's no good method for it, but I'll probably be happier about it if I just start with it..

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post #116 of 589 Old 06-24-2013, 01:51 PM
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I had to look up the meaning of "parging", but now I know. I think of that process as "plastering" -- must be a regional thing. Anyway, keep up the good work!
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post #117 of 589 Old 06-24-2013, 04:16 PM
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Different material. Plastering uses several coat of different materials finishing with a sand free lime based coat that is glass smooth. Parging is a Portland cement and sand product (yes there is lime in it) to give a more or less water proof layer to the inside or outside of a foundation. It was also traditionally used on the inside of a solid brick house to wind proof the wall.

Nightlord, did you find the expanded metal mesh? Nail it to the wood at the top and a few nails into the mortar lines to hold the bottom flat, and a few in the middle, then parge over it. make sure that when you position the mesh that the angle on the "slats" of metal slope down, towards the wall, so the cement doesn't just slide off. If you have problems getting the nails into the block, a few "dabs" of construction adhesive should stick to the block and the mesh. Let it dry.

So do you carry all this cement home in a Mini Austin?biggrin.gif

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post #118 of 589 Old 06-24-2013, 07:47 PM
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So more like a stucco or exterior "plaster". We don't use much sand-free plaster out here in California -- it more like a Spanish style finish, using fine sand for the finish coat. Anyhow, now I got the picture.
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post #119 of 589 Old 06-24-2013, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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LeBon - I didn't know there was different words for it myself a while ago. But I've adapted.

Just Jim - no, I haven't found anything like that, not yet at least. I did find a metal net for added support when parging the back side of the electrical box. Put it up and parged it yesterday and I'm very happy about the result.

No, not a Mini Austin - in this:
mondeo.JPG
It's actually British Racing Green, but that camera got very blue tinted at the end of it's lifespan.

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post #120 of 589 Old 06-27-2013, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's another visualization for you, one with all speakers (but the invisible ones on the back wall) - including the center that I do not have (yet):
Allspeakers.jpg

It's not a 19.6-system.... but could very easily become one... cool.gif

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