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post #361 of 1036 Old 02-22-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

As for other options...Behringer seems to be a high-value alternative but I am unfamiliar with this part of their product line at this point to offer any advice. Let's keep each other in the loop on this one since we both have the same needs.

Speaking of high-value, I use the Berhinger DCX2496 for my front/rear subs & tactile transducers. It's fully configurable 3in/6out DSP using XLR connectors and I've been very impressed -- front panel config is complex but the windows app makes it pretty easy. I can't imagine why there would be a need to go further up market at least for bass management. Full range channels may see some improvements from the higher priced specialty products but this product can certainly help keep costs down if you are prepared to "mix & match".

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post #362 of 1036 Old 02-22-2013, 04:42 PM
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If you need to manage 16 outputs, the minidsp 4x10 might be worth a look (well, two of them).

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post #363 of 1036 Old 02-22-2013, 06:01 PM
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The big advantage with the high end units is fixed latency. I can't imagine having to recalculate delays for 13 channels every time you add a filter. That said, minidsp seems like a terrific value, especially since don't look forward to fooling with both balanced and unbalanced signals.
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post #364 of 1036 Old 02-23-2013, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestion Mr. Tim. I had not heard of that company / product before. The big thing I have to think about is that I will be bringing in professional calibration at some point so it should be a system the calibrator is experienced in using.

HopefulFred is right - I recall QSC saying over and over again that their new Core processors have 2.5ms signal-to-signal fixed latency. I believe they also said there is some sort of patents they have so no one else can duplicate their performance. I'm going form memory so I am probably misstating this, but that's some of what I recall.
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post #365 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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For those following this thread there was some conversation about a 100 posts ago about my reservations in NOT making a big investment in certain pieces of AV equipment because the technological curve is steep and the plateau has not been reached. Theoretically you could argue this is the case for ALL AV gear, but there are certainly sound arguments to make investments in speakers, amplifiers, wires, power protection / battery backup components, anamorphic lenses, subwoofers, lighting control, projection screens, etc. with little worry that something is going to be horrendously outdated in a year or two.

I had said that I am hesitant to spend any more than I absolutely need to get reasonably good performance. In short, I am looking for the value-option in certain product categories such as the projector, the preamp, streaming media devices and even a BluRay player. Many of you had said that you feel the same for the same reasons.

Well, I just stumbled across a news article today that I either completely missed or it was not well-publicized: that there is a new HDMI 2.0 standard coming in the first half of this year that is designed to address many of the limitations of the HDMI 1.4 (and earlier) standards, specifically around 4k and 3D. Wikipedia actually had the best succinct summary:
Quote:
Version 2.0
The HDMI Forum is working on the HDMI 2.0 specification. In a 2012 CES press release HDMI Licensing, LLC stated that the expected release date for the next version of HDMI was the second half of 2012 and that important improvements needed for HDMI include increased bandwidth to allow for higher resolutions and broader video timing support. Longer term goals for HDMI include better support for mobile devices and improved control functions.
On January 8, 2013, HDMI Licensing, LLC announced that the next HDMI version is being worked on by the 83 members of the HDMI Forum and that it is expected to be released in the first half of 2013.
Based on HDMI Forum meetings it is expected that HDMI 2.0 will increase the maximum TMDS per channel throughput from 3.4 Gbit/s to 6 Gbit/s which would allow a maximum total TMDS throughput of 18 Gbit/s. This will allow HDMI 2.0 to support 4K resolution at 60 frames per second (fps). Other features that are expected for HDMI 2.0 include support for 4:2:0 chroma subsampling, support for 25 fps 3D formats, improved 3D capability, support for more than 8 channels of audio, support for the HE-AAC and DRA audio standards, dynamic auto lip-sync, and additional CEC functions.

So perhaps the Marantz AV8801 or Emotiva XMC-1 preamp I was eyeing may have an HDMI 2.0-compliant relative released at CEDIA 2013 or CES 2014. And perhaps this is the year that many more value-priced manufacturers such as Panasonic and Epson will join JVC on the 4K bandwagon with HDMI 2.0-compliant inputs and capabilities. This would also mean that the HDMI 1.4 matrix switch I was looking at for whole-home HDMI distribution may be delayed until they release an updated version since I have the time to wait. And certainly the Audio Control BVHD-20 I was looking at for signal transfer from my Home Theater preamp to my projector nearly 45 feet away will be replaced by a new HDMI 2.0 compliant model.

I might just end up with a beautiful Art Deco home theater with zero projector, preamp or bluray until I have had adequate time to sniff over the new models being released at this year's CEDIA. That would be the very definition of torture....but then again, what's the point of this hobby without a little pain! rolleyes.gif
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post #366 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 04:22 PM
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I am assuming that's a smart decision and not having to worry about upgrading..the way you are meticulously and methodically going forward with your build by the time your done with it i think there wont be much waiting to do for buying the new gear ! smile.gif
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post #367 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 04:37 PM
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Wow Vik, everybody is getting a dig in these days. biggrin.gif

Interesting post, TMcG. Buying AV gear is a risky business. It feels like it's two models behind by the time you get home with it.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #368 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 04:46 PM
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That smiley i put was the confusing part. I was dead serious. I had the same dilemma, Before buying my epson 6020 and panamorph lens i was thinking why don't i wait till the end of the year and maybe a newer model will succeed the current Sony VW1000 and i can go ahead and then get myself the VW1000 for a cheaper price. But the temptation to just buy something right away and watch got the better of me!
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post #369 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 06:28 PM
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^^^^^^In case you did not know Vik has a consistent case of upgradeitus. It is one of the most incurable/uncureable cases I have ever seen. His is the worst type too. It is the contagious type that spreads to others in close proximity. With my sub being down, I now have the sudden and uncontrollable urge to buy an Orbitshifter. Now the only thing stopping me is my pocketbook.

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post #370 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

I now have the sudden and uncontrollable urge to buy an Orbitshifter.

I think Mrs. RTROSE would call that sub a Husbandshifter...because it would shift you right out the front door!! biggrin.gif
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post #371 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 06:37 PM
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I think Mrs. RTROSE would call that sub a Husbandshifter...because it would shift you right out the front door!! biggrin.gif

I had no idea you KNEW my wife! What a small world! biggrin.gif This made me chuckle out loud as it is 100% correct! biggrin.gif

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post #372 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 07:05 PM
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I had no idea you KNEW my wife! What a small world! biggrin.gif This made me chuckle out loud as it is 100% correct! biggrin.gif

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I think this would apply to almost all wives. eek.gif

Mine included!

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post #373 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 07:10 PM
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biggrin.gif RT go for it! if you shift i will take you in in a heartbeat biggrin.gif i mean not in the wrong way tongue.gif what the heck am i talking eek.gif
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post #374 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 07:18 PM
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Now that is a TRUE AVS buddy right there. Offering to take me in (in a good way biggrin.gif ) should my marital status change. Can't ask for more than that. However it does pose a problem.......If I get the Orbitshifter, and the Mrs kicks me out, then it is all for nothing as I'm sure that I would then promptly be separated from Mrs RTROSE and the Orbitshifter.

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post #375 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmmmm......going from a post on the new HDMI 2.0 spec to cohabitation of AVS members in 9 posts. I never saw that one coming!!!! biggrin.gif
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post #376 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 07:54 PM
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post #377 of 1036 Old 02-25-2013, 09:35 PM
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And you guys wonder why this is one of my favorite threads smile.gif Anywhere RT and Vik show up, there's always a story to tell smile.gif

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
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post #378 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 12:09 AM
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Buying AV gear is a risky business. It feels like it's two models behind by the time you get home with it.

Or one decides to stay two generations behind and pick up the no longer wanted gear from those who have to stay on the bleeding edge at very good prices.

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #379 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 03:29 AM
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^^^^^^This should be on a fortune cookie.


Regards,


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post #380 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Paramount Theater Bonus Picture Pack

Per request, some additional pictures of my visit to the Paramount Theater in Oakland, CA:

































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post #381 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 07:10 AM
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It's so lovely one almost breaks into pieces looking at those pictures...

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #382 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 04:54 PM
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That is true beauty. Even the urinals are classy. I have not seen floor length urinals since my elementary school days. Thanks for sharing the extra pics. Very classy. Doesn't give you a "total" pass though on construction pics, a reprieve yes, a total pass, no. tongue.gif

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post #383 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I think Mrs. RTROSE would call that sub a Husbandshifter...because it would shift you right out the front door!! biggrin.gif

Lmao this made me laugh out loud!
I too long for an OS LFU behind my screen.

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post #384 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

That is true beauty. Even the urinals are classy. I have not seen floor length urinals since my elementary school days. Thanks for sharing the extra pics. Very classy. Doesn't give you a "total" pass though on construction pics, a reprieve yes, a total pass, no. tongue.gif

Regards,

RTROSE

Man I was gunna say same thing bout the urinals and having similar ones in elementary. TMcG great pics of a wonderful theater!! Absolutely gorgeous. Hey at QSC did they have some demo theaters there they let ya listen too? So cool you got to go there!!

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post #385 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey at QSC did they have some demo theaters there they let ya listen too? So cool you got to go there!!

Oh yeah...they had a HUGE Christie Digital projector, gigantic anamorphic lens and a motorized masking screen. The screen wasn't that great because it was the commercial perforated stuff but with more residential-like viewing distances. I heard multiple demos showcasing the power of different DSP engines vs. the natural, unprocessed signals. BIG difference. It wasn't even close to be perfectly honest. You could actually hear the value the DSP brought to the equation.

I wish I could have taken pictures, but they are launching a new two-piece speaker system designed for the high-end residential market or smaller commercial theaters. They had their very first production units set up and played a few scenes from "Master and Commander". The setup was a horn midrange/tweeter assembly with their patented wave guide dispersion "magic" and a dual 12" bass module with 2 folded horns incorporated into the box. They claim flat to 20Hz and I have to say....it really sounded like it given the depth of bass. Each full speaker (i.e. the upper assembly and the dual 12" lower assembly) has a targeted street price of $4000 and is due to be released in March or April. They have already been making announcements that a new speaker system was forthcoming, fyi, but it was really cool to get to audition it.

Words cannot describe the stacks and stacks and stacks of $5000 - $10000 processors EVERYWHERE in their audio labs. There was a bit of "mad scientist" to it all with cables strewn everywhere for quick testing and changeouts but to some extent this is exactly the type of guerrilla set-up that I would expect in a full-scale lab environment.

All-in-all it was a very unique experience and I was very appreciative of their time to personally showcase their technology.
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post #386 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 10:03 PM
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I am aware that Procella uses the Xilica DSPs (XP-3060) at tradeshows for the active crossover section of the left / center / right speakers. That may have changed now that they have outboard amplifiers with DSP built-in. Probably a good question for Gerben or one of the Procella heads to chime in on.

[...]

Regarding the P6s....technically speaking the P610 being used for the left, center and right speakers are a standard P6 attached to a P10i subwoofer / bass module with a simple bracket that allows the P6 to pivot toward the listening position. So the bass module is quite literally treated as a completely separate channel and requires an active outboard crossover to integrate with the P6 attached to it (and separate amplification, fyi). So the nine P6 speakers are left, center, right, front side speakers, rear side speakers and rear surround speakers. Then the three P10 bass modules, then stereo subs. So this gives me 14 channels with two channels to spare for balancing subwoofers, Buttkicker signal, height or width channels, etc. Perhaps the 15th channel will be used for a balancing subwoofer and the 16th channel will be used to provide the combined LFE signal to an outboard amplifier powering the Buttkickers built into the theater seating.

Yes, we have used the Xilica, with good results. We like that unit: affordable, good quality, easy S/W configuration. Since we have brought out the DA-2800DSP amps, we don't need outboard DSP any longer, the DA-2800DSP splits the signal into Bass and Mid/High. On top of that, the DA2800 (with or without the DSP) is a very good amp as well!

Now, for the P610, the P6 are indeed physically the same as any other P6, but in their P610 guise, we allow it to concentrate on Mid/High, by crossing over a fair bit higher than 80Hz, which is the (THX) working range for the P6 that are on surround duties. As the P6's in the P610 are relieved from Mid-Bass duties, they can play louder. The P10 then carries the Bass and Mid-Bass and the whole system can play louder than a P6 crossed over at 80Hz. So the result is a full-range system that can play louder! As a result, folks all over the world are loving their P610...
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post #387 of 1036 Old 02-26-2013, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Oh yeah...they had a HUGE Christie Digital projector, gigantic anamorphic lens and a motorized masking screen. The screen wasn't that great because it was the commercial perforated stuff but with more residential-like throw distances. I heard multiple demos showcasing the power of different DSP engines vs. the natural, unprocessed signals. BIG difference. It wasn't even close to be perfectly honest. You could actually hear the value the DSP brought to the equation.

I wish I could have taken pictures, but they are launching a new two-piece speaker system designed for the high-end residential market or smaller commercial theaters. They had their very first production units set up and played a few scenes from "Master and Commander". The setup was a horn midrange/tweeter assembly with their patented wave guide dispersion "magic" and a dual 12" bass module with 2 folded horns incorporated into the box. They claim flat to 20Hz and I have to say....it really sounded like it given the depth of pass. Each full speaker (i.e. the upper assembly and the dual 12" lower assembly) has a targeted street price of $4000 and is due to be released in March or April. They have already been making announcements that a new speaker system was forthcoming, fyi, but it was really cool to get to audition it.

Words cannot describe the stacks and stacks and stacks of $5000 - $10000 processors EVERYWHERE in their audio labs. There was a bit of "mad scientist" to it all with cables strewn everywhere for quick testing and changeouts but to some extent this is exactly the type of guerrilla set-up that I would expect in a full-scale lab environment.

All-in-all it was a very unique experience and I was very appreciative of their time to personally showcase their technology.

Awesome man just awesome! What brought me to the hobby of HT years ago started with my love affair for the cinema and film, and I'm all about Pro Cinema gear as many of us here are. I'm a big QSC fan too. Best cinema I've ever heard was an all QSC equipped theater with Dolby Atmos. Ironically the video quality was poor due to a scope image on a 1.78 screen that was also in need of focus. Anytime i go to a cinema that uses QSC I know it will sound good.

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post #388 of 1036 Old 02-27-2013, 03:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Awesome man just awesome! What brought me to the hobby of HT years ago started with my love affair for the cinema and film, and I'm all about Pro Cinema gear as many of us here are. I'm a big QSC fan too. Best cinema I've ever heard was an all QSC equipped theater with Dolby Atmos. Ironically the video quality was poor due to a scope image on a 1.78 screen that was also in need of focus. Anytime i go to a cinema that uses QSC I know it will sound good.

As a side-note, AMC theaters uses QSC exclusively...so if you are at an AMC you are listening to full racks of AMC DSPs, amps and speakers. I just recalled my favorite quote of the day made by one of the technical directors at QSC after I asked if they supply to IMAX theaters: "We are not in IMAX theaters but we absolutely smoke their performance . . . the comparison isn't even close." He was absolutely dead serious...

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Yes, we have used the Xilica, with good results. We like that unit: affordable, good quality, easy S/W configuration. Since we have brought out the DA-2800DSP amps, we don't need outboard DSP any longer, the DA-2800DSP splits the signal into Bass and Mid/High. On top of that, the DA2800 (with or without the DSP) is a very good amp as well!

Now, for the P610, the P6 are indeed physically the same as any other P6, but in their P610 guise, we allow it to concentrate on Mid/High, by crossing over a fair bit higher than 80Hz, which is the (THX) working range for the P6 that are on surround duties. As the P6's in the P610 are relieved from Mid-Bass duties, they can play louder. The P10 then carries the Bass and Mid-Bass and the whole system can play louder than a P6 crossed over at 80Hz. So the result is a full-range system that can play louder! As a result, folks all over the world are loving their P610...

Thanks for the additional information Gerben. This probably goes a long way in explaining why the mid to upper range was so crisp and clear at reference level when I heard KBlaw2010's system. I even noted in my informal review of his full Procella system just how crystal clear and unstrained the upper range was during the Polar Express demo while all of the low frequency channels were throbbing. I can't wait to be one of the lucky few to love their P610s and the rest of the system!
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post #389 of 1036 Old 02-27-2013, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

As a side-note, AMC theaters uses QSC exclusively...so if you are at an AMC you are listening to full racks of AMC DSPs, amps and speakers. I just recalled my favorite quote of the day made by one of the technical directors at QSC after I asked if they supply to IMAX theaters: "We are not in IMAX theaters but we absolutely smoke their performance . . . the comparison isn't even close." He was absolutely dead serious...
Thanks for the additional information Gerben. This probably goes a long way in explaining why the mid to upper range was so crisp and clear at reference level when I heard KBlaw2010's system. I even noted in my informal review of his full Procella system just how crystal clear and unstrained the upper range was during the Polar Express demo while all of the low frequency channels were throbbing. I can't wait to be one of the lucky few to love their P610s and the rest of the system!

That theater I was talking happened to be an AMC ETX theater. Smoked every IMAX theater I've been to in every aspect of audio quality and performance indeed. Some day I will own a QSC DSP for sure

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post #390 of 1036 Old 03-01-2013, 03:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Not a theater update, but I was cruising through a few threads this morning when the banner ad system on AVS came up with this:


I am very confident that this sponsor is not hitting their target demographic!!! smile.gif Anybody else ever get the same banner ad??
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