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post #541 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 09:25 AM
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Hi Tim,

Great work on all the non-theater related upgrades. They look awesome. Do you mind PMimg me where in Ebay you got the electronic power transfers?

Thanks
james

An Aspen Woods Theater - Under Construction

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post #542 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 10:13 AM
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Great job on that coffered ceiling! Excellent work!

I still a little scared to tackle stain grade trim work. I'm pretty tight with my joints, but every now and then, some wood filler / caulk saves the day.

I've been wanting to do a coffered ceiling for a while now...I think I may tackle one next year
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post #543 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 10:21 AM
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Very nice job on the ceiling and also the trim work in the babies room.
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post #544 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 10:41 AM
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Hey Tim - An off topic-off topic question for you. Were you planning on running your twin 7-350s through any sort of surge suppressor or power conditioners?

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post #545 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. I appreciate the kind words. The ceiling especially was a mighty effort because it was nothing but ladder work and my injured does not tolerate long hours on the ladder, even to this day (they said it could take up to 18 months).

For those following this thread, some had PM'd me asking for a cost breakdown. I spent just over $1500 in material, another $325 in supplies (carpet protector, stain, polyurethane, nails, brushes, glues, etc.) and $975 in labor so roughly $2800 in total. The project took 5 days for the carpentry, a full day to fill all the nail holes and wipe everything down, 1/2 day to tape and 1/2 a day total to paint two coats. Another full day for the first coat of poly and then 1/2 day to paint and install all the lighting. The whole thing went up in 8-10 days as you see it pictured. I haven't done it yet, but I am going to hand sand 100% of the wood to smooth out the poly and apply a second coat to even out the finish. I also have two in-ceiling surround speakers to wire in since I ran speaker cable while the coffered ceiling was still open. In short, there's still finishing details before I can officially sign off on the ceiling project, but not much.

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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

Hey Tim - An off topic-off topic question for you. Were you planning on running your twin 7-350s through any sort of surge suppressor or power conditioners?

No problem. I read somewhere that you were also one of the lucky few to pick up on that deal. It's interesting you bring this up because I have been working on my electrical plan to the finest detail. There's a lot of moving pieces to the puzzle and I have to quadruple-check everything. One of my big concerns is not only these Sherbourn amps, but also the future Behringer amps and all of the power required for the fancy schmancy Color Kinetics RGB LED lighting system require lots of direct power on dedicated circuits. This rules out traditional power conditioners and forces you into options that protect, filter and balance the power at the panel.

Most of the pro-level installs I've seen have used products from Equi=tech: http://www.equitech.com/products/industrial/wall.html The 10WQ would be ideal for my system, but I think the darn thing is close to $10k and therefore WAY out of budget. Nyal Mellor here on the Forum offers one solution from Environmental Potentials, the EP-2050: http://store.acousticfrontiers.com/Power-Products/Whole-House-Surge-Protectors/Environmental-Potentials-EP-2050-Whole-House-Surge-Protector.html It seems to yield the best bang for the buck as it attaches to your panel and does full surge protection plus filtration, which to me are the most important.of the failure states. But even that $730 price tag has be balking a bit.

The short answer is I haven't fully thought out the filtration and protection, but it appears I will have to go to a panel-based solution. Here's an abbreviated list of my dedicated circuits, fyi:

  • Two 20A circuits for Sherbourn PA7-350 amplifiers
  • One 20A circuit for the Behrninger iNuke 6000 or 12000 subwoofer amplfier
  • One 20A (or 15A) circuit for the Behringer EP2500 for eight tactile transducers
  • One 15A circuit of the room's receptacles, including those to power the theater seating
  • One 20A circuit for the Lutron Grafik Eye
  • One 20A circuit for the Color Kinetics controller and 16 strands of string lights of iColor Flex SL lighting + FOSI fiber optic star ceiling illuminator
  • One 20A 240V circuit for the Color Kinetics Cove Lighting
  • One 15A dedicated circuit for all networking, including 8-drive NAS, switches, POE devices, automation system, phones system and security system on UPS
  • One 20A dedicated circuit for four dedicated audio distribution amplifiers
  • One 20A dedicated circuit for all other rack equipment (preamp, bluray, DirecTV, rack light, zone receivers, and accessories)
  • One 15A dedicated circuit for 4 different flat panel display locations powerbridged back to the main rack

This list is by no-means all-inclusive, but is fairly representative of the amount of juice going into the rack for power considerations.....and believe me, I've calculated the loads and these are spot-on with load requirements to maximize the circuit.

What are you doing for your amplifier?
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post #546 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 12:19 PM
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Power conditioning is an issue I've become a lot more concerned about since I picked up these amps. If they get toasted, I don't know that I'll be able to replace them anytime soon. I wonder if adding a rider to your home owner's policy might be a valid option? At first glance, that sounds like a truly bad idea, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if it's not a viable alternative. Primarily, I'm not convinced that a surge suppressor will do much for a lightning strike of any consequence.

TMcG, are you planning to run your amps at 110 V or 120 V?

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post #547 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I think you meant 115v or 230v, which are the two configurations these amps come in. http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0172/4516/t/3/assets/sherbourn_7-350_owners_manual.pdf?10499 The 230v is a special-order only unit and as this was clearance, I ended up with two of the 115v units where I'll be hooking each one to a dedicated 120v 20A circuit.

Most surge suppressors don't have 20a dedicated outlets and those that do cost a mint. Plus, this amp would logically be the only thing connected to the surge suppressor, given its potential current draw. All the other dedicated circuits I have to run are no joke either and need the same power protection and, ideally, filtration.

I guess the best option would be to find something with a connected equipment warranty, but an insurance rider is something I've considered as most folks don't have $45k of speakers in their homes, let alone all the other stuff. rolleyes.gif
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post #548 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I think you meant 115v or 230v, which are the two configurations these amps come in. http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0172/4516/t/3/assets/sherbourn_7-350_owners_manual.pdf?10499 The 230v is a special-order only unit and as this was clearance, I ended up with two of the 115v units where I'll be hooking each one to a dedicated 120v 20A circuit.

Most surge suppressors don't have 20a dedicated outlets and those that do cost a mint. Plus, this amp would logically be the only thing connected to the surge suppressor, given its potential current draw. All the other dedicated circuits I have to run are no joke either and need the same power protection and, ideally, filtration.

I guess the best option would be to find something with a connected equipment warranty, but an insurance rider is something I've considered as most folks don't have $45k of speakers in their homes, let alone all the other stuff. rolleyes.gif

Yep, 230 V is what I meant. Are you sure there are two different models? I don't want to drag my amp back out, but I think it is selectable via a switch on the back panel. Also, the owner's manual you linked to indicates it is selectable as well.

I haven't looked for surge suppressors at all, so I wasn't aware that finding one with a 20 A outlet was difficult. I was considering buying a relatively cheap suppressor, and then adding a rider to my home owners to cover any catastrophic damage from anything other than transients from a squirrel on the power lines.

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post #549 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 12:45 PM
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Yes I was able to get one. I went back to get another, but they were gone by that time. Right now, I'm just using a Tripp Lite 20 amp surge protector and hoping that along with my whole house surge protector will get me by until I can find another solution. As you noted, there not a lot of Bud Light level options.

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post #550 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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You're right - there is a user selectable switch to 230v. Confused because of this fact vs. what I had been previously told, I just called Sherbourn. They said they do have dedicated 230v only models, although those are now sold out as well. I guess I didn't do my homework quite as well in my haste because, given a choice, it's a no-brainer to choose the user-selectable voltage vs. the 230v only - especially if these amps ever need to find another home.

When I asked the Sherbourn guy if he would run the 230v dedicated or the 115v dedicated and he said the 115v. According to him, the 230v gets you very little if any benefit in a residential environment. So that's that I guess, one 20A 120v line will be run for each amplifier.

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Yes I was able to get one. I went back to get another, but they were gone by that time. Right now, I'm just using a Tripp Lite 20 amp surge protector and hoping that along with my whole house surge protector will get me by until I can find another solution. As you noted, there not a lot of Bud Light level options.

If I stumble across anything I'll let you know and please do the same from your end. It's like we're all some sort of weird destitute fraternity of cinemaphiles looking for ways to fit the best in our limited budgets! smile.gif
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post #551 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

You're right - there is a user selectable switch to 230v. Confused because of this fact vs. what I had been previously told, I just called Sherbourn. They said they do have dedicated 230v only models, although those are now sold out as well. I guess I didn't do my homework quite as well in my haste because, given a choice, it's a no-brainer to choose the user-selectable voltage vs. the 230v only - especially if these amps ever need to find another home.......

Good to know. That saves me some slots in my sub-panel.

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post #552 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 03:35 PM
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Another question; are you planning to use AFCIs? They are required here, but aside from the price, I also vaguely remember a post warning about their use with AV gear. I heard they don't seem to like high end vacuum cleaners smile.gif

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post #553 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Hopefully Mr. Tim can chime in regarding the NEC on this one, but if I am not mistaken, I have to use one in any bedrooms and I believe the bathroom. I'll call my local electrical code guy tomorrow and post what I find out.

Your timing is good as this weekend is a 4-day electrical wiring "binge" on the main part of the basement along with running all of the necessary circuits into the theater and closing up the shell. I have a few questions for the code guy concerning electrical in the remaining basement, so I'll add your question to the list. I have just got to get the drywall guys in before the end of September if I am to have any chance of getting the basement done by Thanksgiving. This weekend will be perfect because the wife and baby will be leaving 5AM Friday morning. From there on out if I want to hammer at 11PM, I can do that! Run the circular saw with reckless abandon early in the morning? I can do that! Not to sound selfish, but it's going to be great for my productivity knowing I have no restrictions on noise or time of day activities. smile.gif
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post #554 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
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Hopefully Mr. Tim can chime in regarding the NEC on this one, but if I am not mistaken, I have to use one in any bedrooms and I believe the bathroom. I'll call my local electrical code guy tomorrow and post what I find out.

Your timing is good as this weekend is a 4-day electrical wiring "binge" on the main part of the basement along with running all of the necessary circuits into the theater and closing up the shell. I have a few questions for the code guy concerning electrical in the remaining basement, so I'll add your question to the list. I have just got to get the drywall guys in before the end of September if I am to have any chance of getting the basement done by Thanksgiving. This weekend will be perfect because the wife and baby will be leaving 5AM Friday morning. From there on out if I want to hammer at 11PM, I can do that! Run the circular saw with reckless abandon early in the morning? I can do that! Not to sound selfish, but it's going to be great for my productivity knowing I have no restrictions on noise or time of day activities. smile.gif

Yep, best to contact the local AHJ. Depends what code you're using and the interp of the inspector.

Everything in my theater is AFCI. All my equipment is powered in the equipment closet, which is not AFCI. The feeds for my closet are under the slab in a conduit and come up in the closet, so little chance of something getting nicked. I suppose another inspector could have their own interp and make you AFCI it. My inspector and I had no issues with my setup.

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post #555 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 07:47 PM
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Here's the section from the NEC that I think applies (copied from another website, so may not be word for word)

" All 120V 15 and 20A branch circuits installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries,dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hall ways, or simular rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc fault interrupter, combination type, installed to provide protectionof the branch circuit."

The one that bothered me here is "closet." How did you refer to your equipment closet with your inspector to prevent falling into that category?

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post #556 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
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" ...family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries,dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hall ways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc fault interrupter, combination type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit."

The one that bothered me here is "closet." How did you refer to your equipment closet with your inspector to prevent falling into that category?
Especially when followed by "or similar rooms or areas" I think they really mean everywhere. Maybe there are storage area exceptions - "look, this is where I store my equipment."
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post #557 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 08:00 PM
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Yeah. Not a fan using words like "similar" in a code book.

I think unfinished areas are exempt, hence only two of the breakers in my basement are already AFCI, so I suppose one could just wait to hang the drywall in the equipment closet.

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post #558 of 1076 Old 08-26-2013, 08:47 PM
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The AFCI varies by State. http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Pages/National-Electrical-Code.aspx

I've heard of electric drills/saws tripping them.

Bathrooms have a GFCI. Here, kitchen outlets within 3' of a sink have 20A GFCI's, otherwise any counter plug must be a split plug with a 14/3 wire (effectively two 15A circuits on a double breaker).

Sooo, how many Amps service have you got to your home? I'm guessing you've got something close to 140A peak in your theatre with everything cranked...

I'm just going to throw this out there... I asked my audio equipment repair guy about the high end surge protectors and power filters. His recommendation was to get a basic UPS and use the non-battery backup circuits for protecting sensitive equipment. It probably wouldn't have helped my Revox receiver and CD player, which got fried with our 132+ Voltage, though. I have a number of solid state McIntosh components which specify NOT to use a power filter because they have their own protection circuitry.

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post #559 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Here's the section from the NEC that I think applies (copied from another website, so may not be word for word)

" All 120V 15 and 20A branch circuits installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries,dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hall ways, or simular rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc fault interrupter, combination type, installed to provide protectionof the branch circuit."

The one that bothered me here is "closet." How did you refer to your equipment closet with your inspector to prevent falling into that category?

I think what really bothers me is that it seems they are asking for these AFCI to be installed everywhere a GFCI is not installed. That would be tragic because those breakers are like $35 each eek.gif vs. a few bucks for the standard breaker.
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Sooo, how many Amps service have you got to your home?

I'm just going to throw this out there... I asked my audio equipment repair guy about the high end surge protectors and power filters. His recommendation was to get a basic UPS and use the non-battery backup circuits for protecting sensitive equipment. It probably wouldn't have helped my Revox receiver and CD player, which got fried with our 132+ Voltage, though. I have a number of solid state McIntosh components which specify NOT to use a power filter because they have their own protection circuitry.

I have a 400 amp service coming into the house, split into two 200A panels. The loads on the panels were fairly well-balanced from the start, so I chose the panel without the AC condensing units to "hang" my 100 amp sub-panel in the basement. The panel has 24 circuits, but I may bite the bullet and swap out for the 32 space version before wiring everything in, I'll have to check. I believe my saving grace is that I am able to repurpose the original 5 circuits that came into the basement to take some of the stress off my basement panel and make it just that much more "dedicated" for my AV system.

You are right, the total draw can be very high if everything peaked at once, but you could say that about any electrical system. I don't think I'll have any problems with tripping breakers or worse yet - the panel itself.

I'll have to do a bit more snooping into ways to protect the system from all electrical evils and will perhaps consult with Dennis on this one as a professional double-check on approach.
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post #560 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 01:25 AM
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Doesn't that just state that they have to be connected to one in the fuse cabinet? ?

I have ONE interruptor in the fuse cabinet for the whole house and ONE in the main electrical box for the wiring to the garage.

There really is no reason to have anything connected to the fuses without a ground fault breaker being on the rail.


...perhaps there's a big difference here between 120 and 240V... after all, we draw less current through the cables here...

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post #561 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 04:11 AM
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You all are correct...

This is exactly why you need to get the AHJ involved. Is it more like a closet or a mechanical room? Personally I didn't feel the theater was a "similar room", but the inspector felt otherwise.. so I put the AFCI in.

The code also allows wiring from the panel to the first receptacle to be non-AFCI provided it is in conduit and the first receptacle is AFCI (never seen an AFCI receptacle.. I don't think they exist). Having my branch feeders protected all the way to the receptacle also didn't hurt when making the decision. The receptacles are for dedicated equipment, so another factor that was considered.

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post #562 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a fully-dedicated temperature controlled (i.e. force ventilation tied to a thermostat) equipment room with two Middle Atlantic MRK enclosures facing through an aperature in the wall to access the fronts of the equipment. This would probably be considered an equipment closet.






We're not required to have any conduit here in North Carolina, so that's not a concern. The determination will be exactly how many circuits need to be AFCI. Aside from the cost, am I wrong in not really wanting to have my AV equipment tied to AFCI breakers vs. standard? From the discussion it appears they may be more limiting and vulnerable to tripping than standard.

Our code guys start at 7AM, so I should have an answer sometime later this morning.
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post #563 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 04:52 AM
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I have had my AFCI trip with a vacuum and a router. Then I have had them NOT trip with the same router and vacuum. I don't really think it's an issue, but being relatively new technology there is always some skepticism (mine included). And then there is cost.

Conduit is not required here, either. The point being there is a little chance of wire getting damaged (pinched by stables, nail from a picture hook etc) when it's in the ground, which is why the NEC allows the wiring to be in conduit until it reaches the AFCI receptacle (which doesn't exist afaik).

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post #564 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 07:06 AM
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I'll be calling our inspector this morning as well. It will be interesting to compare notes.

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post #565 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Here's the section from the NEC that I think applies (copied from another website, so may not be word for word)

" All 120V 15 and 20A branch circuits installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries,dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hall ways, or simular rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc fault interrupter, combination type, installed to provide protectionof the branch circuit."

The one that bothered me here is "closet." How did you refer to your equipment closet with your inspector to prevent falling into that category?
My floor plans call it a media room not closet and my sub panel only services the media room and theater. So I was good to go since the 100 amp sub panel is also located in the media room along with my low voltage service panel. I guess it is semantics. The electrician did say in 2014 in my county all breakers will be ARC by code.
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post #566 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post


We're not required to have any conduit here in North Carolina, so that's not a concern. The determination will be exactly how many circuits need to be AFCI. Aside from the cost, am I wrong in not really wanting to have my AV equipment tied to AFCI breakers vs. standard? From the discussion it appears they may be more limiting and vulnerable to tripping than standard.

Our code guys start at 7AM, so I should have an answer sometime later this morning.
My electrician said they do not like high current draw and that even older type vacuum cleaners and power tools can and will trip them. Also my buddy has a modest theater with a Yamaha AVR play station for blue ray and Epson projector. The ARC trips all the time and then we are sitting in the dark. Really pisses him off.
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post #567 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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So I just got off the phone with my inspector . . . and I am a bit sick to my stomach about the call. Every single breaker must be AFCI except for the kitchenette and the bathroom. Every . . . . friggin' . . . . one. It was a new code implemented in our area in mid-2011, so all of the standard breakers I have on-hand will not pass inspection and must be returned. These new breakers are approximately $40 each! eek.gif While I had the inspector on the line, I asked about repurposing the five circuits from the main panel. He said if I have made ANY alteration to the circuit since the time the panel was inspected, I have to swap out the breaker in my original 200 Amp panel to the new breaker to bring things up to today's code and have my entire panel re-approved.

So, in case you missed it.....25 new breakers at $40 a pop including tax = $1000 vs. 25 breakers I paid $3.48 each for a total of $93. How on Earth did the human race make it this far without the safety of AFCI breakers??? Seems like the regulatory fix was in with this code change, allowing the electrical manufacturers to profit from selling device 11 times the cost of the other "commodity" breaker. The financial bloodbath continues.....

And Mr. Tim, you are right (as if I needed to say that) - AFCI receptacles do not exist.
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post #568 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 08:39 AM
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Good grief....that is just crazy! (face palm)

Hang in there looks like its gonna be a bumpy ride!

Regards,


RTROSE

My (slower than molasses) HT build here.
Now a Certified Carpet Counselor and Plumbing Counselor (Self given titles - pay no attention).
Enjoying my "almost done" theater.
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post #569 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 08:40 AM
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If it makes you feel any better, I got off the phone with my inspector about an hour ago and he had the same news for me. I told him I was worried about nuisance tripping because of the high transient current spikes associated with the amps and he recommended a surge suppressor. frown.gif Misery loves company!

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
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post #570 of 1076 Old 08-27-2013, 08:44 AM
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Sorry to hear you are caught up in the AFCI mess. I'm not going to get into the debate over whether or not they are a complete waste of money. I will say that the inspector's interpretation of what has to comply is pretty spot on. I tell people "you touch it, you own it"

Also, the Lowes vs HD prices can be off by almost $10, so check both before purchasing.

Tim

EDIT: I would also add that AFCI is applicable to 120v only (2x check with your AHJ for any local mods), so if you could run your amps/power conditioner/UPS on 240v, you would not be required to AFCI the 240v receptacle.
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