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post #1171 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
....at a minimum, get John Hile or Ted White on the phone and send them a pic....
Well, considering you took my suggestion of flipping your whole theater around and entering through underneath the steps....which caused you to move bathrooms, sump pumps, HVAC and electrical....I can see where you are sympathetic to others not spending lots of money tearing stuff out!

I actually talked to Ted about the situation before I built the wall as it was around the same time I was buying my buckets of Green Glue. He immediately said "tear it out" without any hesitation. This is especially true for the left wall which butts up against the stairs that go upstairs as he said the resonance produced by the triple leaf could potentially amplify even further in the enclosed stairwell.

And I thought Stephen King could tell scary stories!!
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post #1172 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
He immediately said "tear it out" without any hesitation. This is especially true for the left wall which butts up against the stairs that go upstairs as he said the resonance produced by the triple leaf could potentially amplify even further in the enclosed stairwell.

And I thought Stephen King could tell scary stories!!
It's scary...I want my mommy!
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post #1173 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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The lower and Louder the bass- the harder it is to contain it. Would you be watching critical view movies in the middle of the night above reference level? You are getting away from the purpose of sound proofing. It's to get you a low noise floor.
I hear ya brotha!! And I appreciate your comments. There have just been too many things that have coalesced and I feel are driving me to this decision - Everything from recessing the subs into the rear wall to needing deeper back boxes and now accommodating another 4" of total acoustic treatment depth....plus fixing the whole triple leaf scenario while I'm at it. I don't like listening to things at reference as it's just too loud....but -7 to -10 would still be loud enough. I'm not too worried about the noise floor in the room because we live in a quiet neighborhood, the theater is underground, I have taken every precaution to make the HVAC quiet and will have a hush box around an already-quiet projector. I expect to easily achieve NC-20 in the room. So the reverse is actually true for me in that I want to limit sound migration as much as possible, especially through the ceiling to the upstairs.

I haven't made my final decision yet, but I'm 95% of the way for deciding in favor of 'unprogress'. We'll see.
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post #1174 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 07:32 AM
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I'm not sure how accurate this metal detector you are planning to use, but will it get you close enough you can just use a long bit in your drill and jamb it through the first layer of rock? You know, keep it simple and all. That would make a smaller hole and would be easy to patch with just a swipe of DW mud.
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post #1175 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 07:40 AM
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I can see the aesthetic reasoning... But from the sound perspective you'll never notice much difference. I guess only you can determine what is important to you. Seems like a ton of "unprogress" and extra cost though. Just build it and like it. Do a version 2.0 in 5 years.

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post #1176 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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There will never be a version 2.0. Only equipment upgrades from time-to-time like the projector or SSP. Having all the 18s physically sitting in the room would limit access to equipment I plan to have in the room like the PS4, 3D glasses, Buttkicker Amplifiers and quick connect switch, etc.

The actual cost to do this will be minimal but the hassle factor is definitely off the charts.
@J_P_A - I though about that as well as a first option, but I am not sure about this pinpoint detector's accuracy. If it doesn't work it's going right back to the seller.
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post #1177 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 07:51 AM
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What is the cost you anticipate?

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1178 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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What is the cost you anticipate?
The framing is screwed together so I expect to take it apart with no losses. Maybe 10 new studs for the recessed areas so about $25. Pinpoint detector is $50. Perhaps some extra screws and an extra Sawzall blade or two which might be $20. Cheap Forstner bit is $9. So I'd say *about* $100 total....$50 if the detector doesn't work that well for this application and is returned.
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post #1179 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 08:19 AM
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The framing is screwed together so I expect to take it apart with no losses. Maybe 10 new studs for the recessed areas so about $25. Pinpoint detector is $50. Perhaps some extra screws and an extra Sawzall blade or two which might be $20. Cheap Forstner bit is $9. So I'd say *about* $100 total....$50 if the detector doesn't work that well for this application and is returned.
That is a low enough cost to do it.

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post #1180 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 08:24 AM
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TMcG bills his time for beer, so there's more budget to consider here. I'm guessing at least four or five cases.
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post #1181 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 08:37 AM
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I wish I was closer, I'd come swing a hammer for a couple days and hammer some brews.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1182 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 08:58 AM
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We should start an AVS stumblebus. Anytime someone has a project going on we could make a trip around to pick everyone one. Show up at the (un)lucky theater owner's place. Spend a couple days helping/destroying and pile back up on the bus for the ride home...... Sounds like a better time than going to Disney!
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post #1183 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 09:46 AM
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Disney can either be fun or really crappy depending on how busy and the weather. I never understood people that go during the busy time, which also happens to be highly uncomfortable and hot. You go in like October/Nov it's perfect... And cheaper. But I know it has to do with school schedules. It's almost worth the money savings and the better enjoyment to take a week off school. Nothing sucks more than waiting in line when you are HOT and the sun is just kicking your ass! And waiting forever... OMG! It's so chitty I wonder why people actually pay all that money to do it. My wife is a huge Disney nut, but I am a little more realistic about it. I've figured out how to make it fun, and when it clearly is not.

That all said, I think it's way more fun than DISNEY! Come pick me up. I'm only about 1500 miles away.

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post #1184 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 10:44 AM
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@J_P_A - I though about that as well as a first option, but I am not sure about this pinpoint detector's accuracy. If it doesn't work it's going right back to the seller.
Definitely report back on the detector -- I've never had good luck with those. What I have had great luck with is rare earth magnets. I usually start with a "child lock" magnet simply because it's bigger and then after I get a general location, I use a stack of 1/8" magnets to give an exact location. It's extremely accurate.

Not sure how using a screw bit through the drywall and Green Glue would work, though. I've had 50/50 luck extracting screws from beneath texture and drywall mud. Going through Green Glue is going really muck up the works. Maybe? Worth a try since that would result in the smallest hole, even if only half of them work.
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post #1185 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 10:45 AM
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So many reasonable people giving reasonable advice. I feel like a lone devil sitting on your shoulder whispering "do it! do it! do it!"
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post #1186 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 12:04 PM
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let me know the day you plan to do some un-progress, I am a phone call away.

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post #1187 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
We should start an AVS stumblebus. Anytime someone has a project going on we could make a trip around to pick everyone one. Show up at the (un)lucky theater owner's place. Spend a couple days helping/destroying and pile back up on the bus for the ride home......
Sounds like a great idea! I can add that into the total cost of the deconstruction project:
  • Stumblebus charter rental - $800
  • Stumblebus fuel - $400
  • Beer / pizza / red meat - $3800
  • Emergency Plumbing Service (cause you KNOW there will be clogs!!) - $500
  • Replacing stuff that shouldn't have been ripped out in the deconstruction process (after all, you can't stop dedicated AVS Members when they are on a mission!) - $7500
  • Deconstruction supplies - $100

Hmmmm....on second thought maybe the stumblebus idea is a bit too expensive!

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Come pick me up. I'm only about 1500 miles away.
I pulled it up... only 772 miles away, so see you on Friday?

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let me know the day you plan to do some un-progress, I am a phone call away.
I will definitely do that! Thanks!
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post #1188 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 01:15 PM
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How close you to myrtle beach or Virginia beach ? I could possibly talk wife into that...

Or fly me down sometime, I'll have my dad pick me up on his way from FL to MA after a few day. He makes that trip often enough.

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post #1189 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 01:21 PM
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To quote one of my favorite Holiday movies "I wouldn't touch this, with a
thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole."

Good luck!
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post #1190 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Disney can either be fun or really crappy depending on how busy and the weather. I never understood people that go during the busy time, which also happens to be highly uncomfortable and hot. You go in like October/Nov it's perfect... And cheaper. But I know it has to do with school schedules. It's almost worth the money savings and the better enjoyment to take a week off school. Nothing sucks more than waiting in line when you are HOT and the sun is just kicking your ass! And waiting forever... OMG! It's so chitty I wonder why people actually pay all that money to do it. My wife is a huge Disney nut, but I am a little more realistic about it. I've figured out how to make it fun, and when it clearly is not.

That all said, I think it's way more fun than DISNEY! Come pick me up. I'm only about 1500 miles away.
Oh d not be pulling Disney into this. We go all times of the year but we r there three times a year so when busy in the parks we just do other stuff at our hotel. A Disney verteran rule of thumb is in eArly. Out by 12. Back in at night. Lol

Deff always a fun time when you know what to expect and not have certain expectations. I really don't think there is a down time at the world anymore. Seems always busy. Oct used to be dead then food and wine became so popular now it's like Xmas and Easter in October there.

Jim
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post #1191 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 04:11 PM
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I agree with what you say about Disney. Wife is a nut. She's all over all that. Leave at noon, return at night. Certain parks open and hour or two early certain days... others stay open later other nights, she got it all figured out

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post #1192 of 1485 Old 02-23-2015, 04:18 PM
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IMHO.............rip it out and start over! Like you, would drive me absolutely nuts knowing project was not to my standards. I would first seek help from Ted checking out your situation. NC-20 is a lofty goal......................I've only hit NC 25 regarding noise floor and that is with 2 X 6 construction, R-24 and four layers of OSB or DW with Green Glue!

In regards to wooferage leakage......................you can contain energy somewhat, but even in my situation........from time to time rumbles can be heard in kitchen with intense scenes. With your heavy hitters..........................I'd make sure containment is done PERFECT!

I might be the outlier with opinion............................but then again, I'm anal retentive........................I suspect so are you. If you have access to studs, no harm no foul with fixing issues.
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post #1193 of 1485 Old 02-24-2015, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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IMHO.............rip it out and start over! Like you, would drive me absolutely nuts knowing project was not to my standards. I would first seek help from Ted checking out your situation. NC-20 is a lofty goal......................I've only hit NC 25 regarding noise floor and that is with 2 X 6 construction, R-24 and four layers of OSB or DW with Green Glue!
Thanks DW! You're right, it would bother me and there is the very practical aspect of gaining back the room width I'd need to accommodate the deeper treatments plus just a bit more. I ordered the highest strength rare earth magnets I could find from Amazon yesterday, so hopefully granroth's trick works.

I installed OSB on its side and the drywall vertically, so it may be easier to precut the chunks while they are still attached to the wall so I can ID stud locations and get a bit of prying leverage in case I have to go behind the wall with my Sawzall blade.

EDIT - I came to your construction thread late in the game so I went through the first 1000 posts or so of your thread last night. You certainly didn't have many pictures of the build-out, probably because you were moving so insanely quick with the construction. But let me make sure I have this straight....you used one layer of OSB for the entire room and then 3 layers of drywall on top of that....THEN you added a fifth layer to the one wall that your theater shares with the garage. Do I have that correct?

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post #1194 of 1485 Old 02-24-2015, 08:57 AM
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I cringe every time I think about this process. Good luck!
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post #1195 of 1485 Old 02-24-2015, 09:00 AM
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I agree with what you say about Disney. Wife is a nut. She's all over all that. Leave at noon, return at night. Certain parks open and hour or two early certain days... others stay open later other nights, she got it all figured out
AND if you stay on campus, you can stay later in certain parks on certain days.

We've been to Disney on average every 2.5 years, and we don't have kids (yet).
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post #1196 of 1485 Old 02-24-2015, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Woofage

One of the things I have been working on behind the scenes are custom sub cabinets to house the two Stereo Integrity HS24 subwoofers I will be installing in the front baffle wall. Given the width of my screen and the width of the Procella P610 LCRs, I was left with about 35" between the center and the respective left and right speakers after framing and back boxes were taken into consideration. I wanted the depth of the box to be as shallow as possible to maximize my room size and viewing distances. With the driver being 13.5" deep, I had heard that the box could be as shallow as 15" deep, which was great. For height, I could literally go up to a full sheet height of 8' which gave me quite a bit of design flexibility. I have the sub driver located at the bottom of this vertical cabinet so the driver will not fire behind my screen but under it.

I ended up connecting with Andrew (Gorilla83) because he is very knowledgeable when it comes to DIY speaker box design and has his own CNC machine in his workshop. Fortunately he had the time to tackle this project. Once I gave him these max dimensions, Andrew set about tweaking the box dimensions to maximize performance while optimizing sheet material. The first thing he did was increase the depth of the box to give the driver a bit more room to 'breathe'. Next, we maximized sheet stock by going 32" wide on the box so three panels could be cut from one sheet. The 48" max height dimension was also selected to improve sheet material yields without sacrificing driver performance.

In the end I will have a 12.3 cubic foot box that measures 19"D x 32"W x 48"H. Each box will take 3 sheets of 3/4" MDF and have a triple front baffle, a single layer of 3/4" for all other walls and a heavy duty internal bracing matrix.

This is not the final design, but very close. The walls of the three vertical internal braces will be opened up, all inside corners of the braces will have a radius for strength and the bracing around the driver will be "u" shaped for even greater bracing stability. All joints will either be dadoed or rabbeted. Andrew will also add in the Speakon connector.

Boxes will be cut in the next 8-10 weeks. Here's some Sketchups of the box design.









I had the option of creating a 15 cf box that would necessitate another 2 sheets of MDF, but the payoff was only an extra 1db at near infrasonic frequencies. I decided it wasn't worth the extra $400 to eek out that last ounce of performance. Special thanks Andrew and to John (LTD02) who took the time to model this box in WinISD. The difference between the two cabinets was only about 1dB for the same applied power. This graph shows the two different cabinets with 1500 watts each and no inductance effects--one is 12.3 and the other (the heavy line) is 15.0 cubic feet. John said this graph is usually a pretty good estimate of the very low end performance.



I should have 115db at 20Hz and 103db at 9Hz.....not accounting for the fact that there will be two of these beasts working together.
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post #1197 of 1485 Old 02-24-2015, 10:13 AM
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Very cool, Tim. It's interesting to me that the HS24 seems to work well in both ported and sealed enclosures. It seems that this driver is a nicely engineered woofer. I was skeptical when it first started making news; I assumed anything that large was going to have distortion problems and really just be a gimmick or have serious bandwidth limitations. It looks like that's not the case - so good news all around for those who can afford the space.

I imagine that there will be a build thread for this when the time comes? I'm sure Andrew would like to show what was possible - it looks very impressive.
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post #1198 of 1485 Old 02-24-2015, 10:26 AM
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AND if you stay on campus, you can stay later in certain parks on certain days.

We've been to Disney on average every 2.5 years, and we don't have kids (yet).

we have been too. used to go more before kids. lol we only stay on property cause we are dvc members. even before dvc would never stay off campus. those early days are key for popping in and out of popular stuff these days with it always being busy.

we love disney.
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post #1199 of 1485 Old 02-24-2015, 11:45 AM
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Very cool, Tim. It's interesting to me that the HS24 seems to work well in both ported and sealed enclosures. It seems that this driver is a nicely engineered woofer. I was skeptical when it first started making news; I assumed anything that large was going to have distortion problems and really just be a gimmick or have serious bandwidth limitations. It looks like that's not the case - so good news all around for those who can afford the space.

I imagine that there will be a build thread for this when the time comes? I'm sure Andrew would like to show what was possible - it looks very impressive.
Ported box size just starts to get really out of hand though...

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post #1200 of 1485 Old 02-24-2015, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Very cool, Tim. It's interesting to me that the HS24 seems to work well in both ported and sealed enclosures. It seems that this driver is a nicely engineered woofer. I was skeptical when it first started making news; I assumed anything that large was going to have distortion problems and really just be a gimmick or have serious bandwidth limitations. It looks like that's not the case - so good news all around for those who can afford the space.

I imagine that there will be a build thread for this when the time comes? I'm sure Andrew would like to show what was possible - it looks very impressive.
Yeah, I was closely following all the reviews, shootout results and general impressions from dozens of fellow AVS members plus a few professional reviews and they all came to the same conclusion: These 24" drivers are the real deal...and are the real deal in spades. 10 cubic feet is the minimum box size and 15 cubic feet is the recommended optimum box size for a sealed enclosure. I'm happy at about 12.3 cubic feet because I'm not giving up very much in terms of performance as the graph shows. Assembled weight is going to be pushing 400 pounds each.

I will be stopping by Andrew's house to pick up all the pieces when they are ready. He's going to leave them unassembled for easy transport. I won't create a separate build thread, but I will post photos of the construction in this thread FWIW. I might ping Andrew to see if he can take some pics during the CNC process so I can post them here.

I had the opportunity to visit Nick at the Stereo Integrity headquarters about 30 minutes north of me and see the 24" in action on the test bench when the driver was first released last year. I brought my DSLR and took a handful of pictures. The only thing I kept thinking was how the 24" made the 18" look like an 8" midrange driver. Yes, that's their 18" driver sitting right next to the 24"!



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