The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 1483 Old 06-19-2015, 07:42 PM
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Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
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post #1352 of 1483 Old 06-19-2015, 07:51 PM
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post #1353 of 1483 Old 06-20-2015, 02:28 AM - Thread Starter
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post #1354 of 1483 Old 06-20-2015, 06:14 AM
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Completely starting from scratch?
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post #1355 of 1483 Old 06-20-2015, 09:15 AM
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Completely starting from scratch?
New natural gas line installation ?
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post #1356 of 1483 Old 06-20-2015, 01:51 PM
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Maybe he was testing a new amp and sub and couldn't resist turning the dial to 11?
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post #1357 of 1483 Old 06-20-2015, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Deconstruction - Day 1

Well, the day I was waiting for finally arrived....deconstruction. Just in case you are new to this thread, I previously added a layer of 1/2" OSB and 1/2" drywall with Green Glue to the existing house framing back when I was going to build a high-value theater. Enter scope creep and...well...here I am.

The primary reason I am removing the decoupled framing is to remove these two layers of sheet material from the original framing and avoid the Triple Leaf Effect which can dramatically reduce soundproofing effectiveness and potentially introduce resonances. Quite literally, there is a 10 STC improvement by going with a double leaf wall vs. triple leaf. The Green Glue Company has an excellent white paper explaining this effect HERE. With the LFE firepower I have going into the room, I wanted to do the best job I could with sound containment.

The other reason is to recapture about 5-6 inches of usable room width I left behind because I didn't want to trim down all the closed cell spray foam on the right wall. The rookie installer mistakenly sprayed 6-7 inches of foam depth vs. the 2" I paid for. Cutting down the foam and recapturing this room width will allow me to use 4" deep acoustic treatments vs. 2" without any loss of finished room width.

I was fortunate to have @24Changer help me with today's deconstruction. This was a two-person job almost every step of the way, without question, and I GREATLY appreciated his skilled help. He'll be back tomorrow for day 2. Now on to the pictures.....

Today we focused ONLY on the rear wall. This is how the back wall looked this morning with the drywall/GG/OSB sheet material behind the decoupled wall.


I had used a bit of Liquid Nails under the bottom plate and was very concerned that cutting through this adhesive was going to be difficult and take forever. With Kevin on the Sawzall, I was using a series of pry bars to lift the bottom plate as much as possible to make the cutting easier. To our surprise, I was able to pop the bottom plate off the subfloor using only prybars. Loosening the entire wall only took about 15 minutes. What a relief!!


Since I used screws, the wall disassembled fairly quickly.


With me working the prybars and Kevin working the Sawzall, we were able to cut through all the screws that were holding the OSB to the back side of the framing. It was slow going, but we kept at it.


We ended up removing the entire stud at the vertical OSB seams.


I bought a thin-kerf Sawzall blade and was able to run it right down the seam, with the factory edges of the OSB as a guide. You can see the light poking through.


Here you can see the same cut (with flash) and you'll notice I removed all the screws holding the drywall to the OSB. The Green Glue has permanently bonded the two layers and I will be going through both layers with a single 2" drywall screw when reinstalled on the back side of the rear theater wall.


First perfect 4'x8' piece removed!!


Here you can see just how cleanly we were able to remove the pieces in-tact for reuse.


Here's a close-up look at the carnage after removing all of the sheet material from the rear wall. You can see I ended up with four full 4x8 sheets plus a small extra piece. Each 4x8 is HEAVY!


Another view of the rear wall


We reinstalled the studding we removed and shifted all four pieces onto the backside of the wall, ready for re-installation.


There wasn't enough room to get these 1" thick sheet sandwich pieces behind the HVAC unit, so we has to improvise with removing the surrounding framing, cutting a path through blocking and working together to move the entire HVAC unit about 2 inches, pictured below. It took a little work, but we were able to get the needed room to install the sheet material. I'll have to figure out something fancy to get everything reattached properly, including all the studding we had to remove.


Studding around the HVAC needs to be reinstalled...I'll probably get to that tonight or tomorrow morning.


Tomorrow's goal is to remove ALL the remaining framing, plus the sheet material along the left wall. I think it's doable now that we've worked out the process. From there I will be cutting down the foam to the proper height, re-framing, adding decoupling brackets to the wall framing, insulating and then skinning the room. Today was the spark I needed and I look forward to keeping up the pace and have a finished shell over the next few weeks.
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post #1358 of 1483 Old 06-20-2015, 04:27 PM
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Great unprogress! Just get it all done in 3 weeks so we can watch a movie instead

Taking any time off this week to work on it?
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post #1359 of 1483 Old 06-20-2015, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Great unprogress! Just get it all done in 3 weeks so we can watch a movie instead

Taking any time off this week to work on it?
No problem...what would you like to watch?

I'm going to try to work on it every spare moment I get, within reason. Thankfully, I'm on a travel hiatus until *about* July 15.
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post #1360 of 1483 Old 06-21-2015, 03:43 AM
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Great progress, Tim. I have to admit that I thought reusing the wall was crazy. I would have taken a saw and sledge to it and deposited it in the dumpster.

I am impressed with the reuse. In actuality it looks like it was less work than throwing it away! Well played, sir... well played.

Tim
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post #1361 of 1483 Old 06-21-2015, 06:38 AM
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Yeah reusing an entire wall is pretty impressive. That's better than crystal meth tweakers on large garbage day. Those guys can find anything in a giant pile of garbage and turn it into money for more meth. Not that I'm calling you a white trash tweaker or anything, but you're reclaiming abilities are on par with the best of them.
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post #1362 of 1483 Old 06-21-2015, 06:56 AM
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Lol
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post #1363 of 1483 Old 06-21-2015, 07:34 AM
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Excited and happy for you to see this finally underway. Thanks for all the documentation and this will definitely be a fun one for all of us...
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post #1364 of 1483 Old 06-21-2015, 08:53 AM
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What a relief! Now that you have that damn 4" PVC drain exposed again, you can replace it with cast iron so I can stop worrying about the impending noise in your dead silent room! Elbows too!

I assume you are only cutting the 2lb foam back to the studs? It is very tough to cut unless you can find a 20" course blade to fit in your Sawzall... Personally, I would only cut the bumps off and leave the solid depth for temperature insulation (it does little for sound) and cut into it where you need to for the depth of your speakers.

I know how you feel. I had to take up two of my new decks because the wood cupped and replace with Ipe. Both woods were about 80 lbs/board and they were on the 2nd and 3rd floors...20' long boards. 4 days to take apart and 4 days to reinstall. But I am glad I did it and I was very "happy" when it was done!

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #1365 of 1483 Old 06-21-2015, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Deconstruction - Day 2

Well, today was another productive day. @24Changer came out again and I cannot thank him enough for his help. First order of business was to get the rear wall put back together. Here's the final result as seen from the theater:



And from the back side:


The most difficult area to address was behind the HVAC. After thinking about it last night I thought the best way to handle this area would be attach the studs to the back of the sheet where we had full access and then slide it into position and secure the studs to the top and bottom plates. This is exactly what we ended up doing, although we had a few false starts and a few hiccups as we discovered new obstacles to execution.


A couple more shots. I have to say it looks like a new install vs. repurposed sheet goods.


We removed the framing around the accessible area near the door:


We couldn't go any further until we moved the gigantic pile of sheet goods intended for the theater, including 24 sheets of 54" x 12' x 5/8" drywall. It's the part of emptying out the theater I was dreading most and again, Kevin was a HUGE help. We also did a bit of cleanup to give us room to work and places to put all the 'stuff' we were hauling out of the theater. Can you tell where the drywall was sitting?


Only part of my total supply stash (for both basement and theater)


So over the course of the next week I am going to continue emptying the room and remove all the existing framing. Once I get to the point of removing the sheet material on the left wall, I'll probably see if I could draft another helper as it's definitely a two-person job.

Oh, and @JVoth - you cracked me up with that comment!

Last edited by TMcG; 06-21-2015 at 06:27 PM.
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post #1366 of 1483 Old 06-22-2015, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
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What a relief! Now that you have that damn 4" PVC drain exposed again, you can replace it with cast iron so I can stop worrying about the impending noise in your dead silent room! Elbows too!

I assume you are only cutting the 2lb foam back to the studs? It is very tough to cut unless you can find a 20" course blade to fit in your Sawzall... Personally, I would only cut the bumps off and leave the solid depth for temperature insulation (it does little for sound) and cut into it where you need to for the depth of your speakers.
No cast iron, but that drain pipe will be reconfigured once the new decoupled wall is installed.

And yes, I plan to shave down the foam with some sort of saw. Do you have a link to a 20" Sawzall blade? The longest I could find was 12". The foam is being used primarily as an air and moisture barrier, so I could take it down to as little as one inch. But I plan to leave two inches which is R13. The decoupled wall will have R13 pink fluffy, so I am more than covered from an insulation standpoint.
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post #1367 of 1483 Old 06-22-2015, 08:07 AM
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No cast iron, but that drain pipe will be reconfigured once the new decoupled wall is installed.

And yes, I plan to shave down the foam with some sort of saw. Do you have a link to a 20" Sawzall blade? The longest I could find was 12". The foam is being used primarily as an air and moisture barrier, so I could take it down to as little as one inch. But I plan to leave two inches which is R13. The decoupled wall will have R13 pink fluffy, so I am more than covered from an insulation standpoint.
Cast iron isn't difficult to work with and is soooo quiet....

Unfortunately they don't make them...if you go to a saw blade re-sharpener that also makes bandsaw blades. Ask for a 1 1/4" 10TPI section of bandsaw stock. If you have a grinder, grind one end to fit your Sawzall (keep it cool by dipping it in water as you go), probably round the other end like a ham slicer. Or they could do it for you. Don't leave any slarp inside corners with the grinder. They will create stress points where the blade will break.

Look at something like Roxul Safe-n-Sound instead of fiberglass. http://www.roxul.com/residential/cre...h+safe+n+sound

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post #1368 of 1483 Old 06-22-2015, 11:26 AM
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post #1369 of 1483 Old 06-22-2015, 12:14 PM
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Pure excellence! i am now wishing that i carefully dissected my original space with your level of care, instead of taking hammers and crowbars to the basement. That would have saved me $500 in junk removal costs. How on earth did you find all the screws to remove? Stud finder+metal detector?
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post #1370 of 1483 Old 06-22-2015, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Very impressive re-use! I love it
Thanks! Removing the left wall may be a bit trickier because of the stair framing.

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Pure excellence! i am now wishing that i carefully dissected my original space with your level of care, instead of taking hammers and crowbars to the basement. That would have saved me $500 in junk removal costs. How on earth did you find all the screws to remove? Stud finder+metal detector?
If you look at the photos in Deconstruction Day #1 you'll see that I used small pry bars to allow Kevin to get his Sawzall blade between the OSB and framing and cut through the screws. It took every bit of 4 new blades to get through the entire wall.

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post #1371 of 1483 Old 06-22-2015, 06:27 PM
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Pure excellence! i am now wishing that i carefully dissected my original space with your level of care, instead of taking hammers and crowbars to the basement. That would have saved me $500 in junk removal costs. How on earth did you find all the screws to remove? Stud finder+metal detector?
Well.... as someone who did pretty carefully deconstruct (as opposed to demolish) my existing rooms when prepping my theater, I can say there are definite pros and cons to that process.

First, it's almost never worth saving drywall. The only reason Tim saved his is because it was already two layers with OSB + Green Glue. That's very re-usable. Regular drywall (probably the 1/2" stuff) isn't even close to being worth saving, based on how much time it takes to extract it.

And that's the key -- deconstruction takes FAR longer than demolition. Demolition is all about sledgehammers and sawzall and just removing as much material as possible, as fast as possible Deconstruction is all about sweating the details and trying to extract as many of the screws and nails as you can -- individually. We're talking many many times longer.

It does save a notable amount of money if you consider your time worthless, though. You'll still need to have the drywall hauled away, but quite a bit of the rest can be saved and reused. Or, barring that, can be donated to something like the Habitat for Humanity ReStore.

Time vs Money, the eternal struggle when building anything
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post #1372 of 1483 Old 06-25-2015, 01:30 AM
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Time vs Money, the eternal struggle when building anything
This is why you have to enjoy the process of the build. You can't put a price on the "experience", or the sense of accomplishment by doing it yourself. At least, this is what I tell myself.
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post #1373 of 1483 Old 06-26-2015, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Small update -

I've been chipping away at emptying out everything from the theater all week and will be moving out the last of the stuff this afternoon, followed by removing the rest of the theater framing and the framing underneath the steps, which is where some of this reused material will be going.

Tomorrow morning @24Changer is coming over to help me remove the rest of the OSB/GG/Drywall sheet material and reinstall where possible. That will mark the end of deconstruction and the start of new construction! Woot!

This coming week I will be building double layer back boxes with Green Glue and will incorporate these back boxes into the framing when I start the reframing on July 3rd. One note about about the backboxes......I will be building all the boxes for the side and rear channels four feet tall. The inner layer will be 3/4" MDF and will be drilled to accept shelf pins before assembly. This way I can adjust the side and rear speakers to any height I choose and even accept two sets of speakers in each box, if needed (one at ear level and the other angled toward the MLP from just underneath the soffit).

I had contracted with Dennis Erskine at the beginning of this project and he is currently busy updating my plans to incorporate Dolby Atmos / DTS-X, plus placement for all the 18" subs. The two 24" subs will be going in the front baffle wall. Dennis had suggested adding front width speakers and prewire for an 8-10 speaker ceiling array to cover the two rows of seating. Since I'd like to keep the front wall aesthetics in-tact, my only option was to move any width speakers to the side wall and angle them toward the MLP. I sent Dennis a quick TMcGoogle Sketchup rendering of how I would like to incorporate the front width speakers. I may have to open up the one side of the box to a 120 degree angle to not interfere with any audio energy on the left side of the speaker, but the basic engineering should be about the same.



Updates to follow this weekend!
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post #1374 of 1483 Old 06-26-2015, 10:16 AM
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Great progress. Keep it rolling!
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post #1375 of 1483 Old 06-26-2015, 11:24 AM
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I really like that Idea of recessing and angling. That would need to be one heck of a backer box to contain the sound this room will be producing. I'm glad that the deconstruction is almost done. When you look back, you'll be very happy you did it. Triple leaf is a very dangerous game, from what I've read.
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post #1376 of 1483 Old 06-26-2015, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Great progress. Keep it rolling!
Thanks! You never answered what movie you'd like to watch in a few weeks...

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I really like that Idea of recessing and angling. That would need to be one heck of a backer box to contain the sound this room will be producing. I'm glad that the deconstruction is almost done. When you look back, you'll be very happy you did it. Triple leaf is a very dangerous game, from what I've read.
Yeah, that triple leaf effect would have irritated my selective OCD every time I walked into the room. I didn't want to live with any 'should haves' with this theater construction, especially when it comes to sound containment.

The back boxes will be 3/4" plywood for the outer layer and 3/4" MDF for the inner layer with Green Glue between the layers. That should provide plenty of damped mass and structural support. Since these will be 4' tall, I'll probably frame a bit of support underneath these boxes to take care of most of the weight.

I have given a lot of thought to having 3 layers all around like you did, but I am going to stick with two layers. The tradeoff with having the third layer is that you need much more bass trapping since the LFE can't 'escape' as easily. Given the amount of LFE vs. the size of my room, I don't think I have enough cubic volume for that much bass trapping.
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post #1377 of 1483 Old 06-26-2015, 01:46 PM
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Wow.

I'm very impressed with your removal and reinstallation of the wall material.

I'll bet you're glad you didn't stagger the seams of the OSB and drywall. I thought I remembered that was the preferred installation method for layered walls, but it's been quite a while since I read the recommendations on The Soundproofing Company's Web site.
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post #1378 of 1483 Old 06-26-2015, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm very impressed with your removal and reinstallation of the wall material.

I'll bet you're glad you didn't stagger the seams of the OSB and drywall. I thought I remembered that was the preferred installation method for layered walls, but it's been quite a while since I read the recommendations on The Soundproofing Company's Web site.
Thanks! But I DID stagger the seams. The OSB was mounted vertically to the studs and I overlapped the seams at least 8" by vertically mounting the drywall to the OSB, not the studs. You can see the drywall seam and the thin kerf cut, where I used the factory OSB edge as a blade guide. In other words, I cut between the sheets of OSB but straight through the drywall. The blade created what appeared to be a factory drywall edge.


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post #1379 of 1483 Old 06-27-2015, 07:28 AM
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And yes, I plan to shave down the foam with some sort of saw. Do you have a link to a 20" Sawzall blade? The longest I could find was 12".
If you aren't already thinking along these lines, I would just pick up a good old-fashioned hand saw, 26" long... should cut it like butter...
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post #1380 of 1483 Old 06-27-2015, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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If you aren't already thinking along these lines, I would just pick up a good old-fashioned hand saw, 26" long... should cut it like butter...
Just tried it....difficult and doesn't really work....grrrrr
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