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post #1381 of 1407 Old 06-27-2015, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Just tried it....difficult and doesn't really work....grrrrr
Well, dang, that's unexpected, although "just jim" called it... Must be some tough foam. Chainsaw? (Only half joking...)
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post #1382 of 1407 Old 06-27-2015, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Deconstruction - Final Day!!!

Yes, you read that right, I was able to finish all the theater deconstruction today with a little (a lot) of help from Kevin (@24Changer). I had emptied out about 95% of the room during the course of the week and Kevin helped me move the last handful of items that were best moved with two people.


I left the Richard Gray Powerhouse (wood crate), the Stewart filmscreen and the drywall lift in the room at first....but the Powerhouse, screen and lift kept getting in the way, so we moved everything but the Powerhouse out of the room.


Next up was removing the rest of the framing.








It was a bit of struggle here and there, but we got it done.


It was VERY slow going at first and we couldn't figure out why. As it turns out, I had used exterior decking screws to fasten the OSB layer. The security of this screw was MUCH better than standard drywall screws, plus the screw was thicker and more difficult to cut. We decided to change our approach and simply pull the screw through the OSB using prybars. This was a big effort in its own right, to be honest. We removed the first piece, although there was a bit of damage to the drywall later.



Since I have 9' ceilings, I had used a 1' piece of OSB as a 'starter strip at the bottom of the wall'. I cut along the OSB seam to free up this strip. We were able to save most of it.



The wall definitely put up a fight, but we were able to keep moving forward



Left wall done, ready to remove the last piece located on the front wall.


Last pieces on the front wall removed:


Removed the fiddly pieces around the theater door


The completed wall!


All of the sheet materials ready to be re-used.


Removed all the framing and blocking from underneath the steps to prep for sheet material installation....hopefully tonight!!


That's all for now. I am extremely excited to have all the deconstruction behind me so quickly and can't wait to get the room into a drywall shell.

As I said before, after repurposing all of this sheet material I will be using the theater as my workroom to produce dual layer/GG back boxes for all the speakers. I'm also planning to tidy up the mess of mechanicals in the back for the room and *somehow* shave down all that closed cell spray foam to a consistent 2" depth.

I'm hoping Dennis comes through with the wall speaker plan by Friday so I can get started right away on the new framing that night. I'll be installing the Kinetics Noise control wall sway brackets as I go.

One last thing that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet . . . . yes, I will have to re-frame parts of the rear wall to recess the four UXL-18 subwoofers once i know the proper locations. Since I used screws, the re-framing should be a snap.
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post #1383 of 1407 Old 06-27-2015, 03:07 PM
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Wow........simply wow!

I bet each panel weights a ton!

With reusing OSB and DW panels.......do you plan to trim down drywall 4-6" from each edge of OSB while attaching a filler piece of DW to attach each panel seam together?

Seems problematic if your intentions are to butt ends together and acoustic chalk seam. Adding rigidity to seam seems sensible. Yet scraping GG from OSB would be a major pain in butt and messy.......
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post #1384 of 1407 Old 06-27-2015, 03:16 PM
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Have to take down the marquee?
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post #1385 of 1407 Old 06-27-2015, 03:18 PM
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I'd feel inclined to add a third layer with or without GG to get a fresh surface, conceal seams, and add mass - but I don't think that's the plan. I'm sure whatever TMcG has devised will come out as he plans.
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post #1386 of 1407 Old 06-27-2015, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Thanks! But I DID stagger the seams. The OSB was mounted vertically to the studs and I overlapped the seams at least 8" by vertically mounting the drywall to the OSB, not the studs. You can see the drywall seam and the thin kerf cut, where I used the factory OSB edge as a blade guide. In other words, I cut between the sheets of OSB but straight through the drywall. The blade created what appeared to be a factory drywall edge.
D'OH! That's what I get for trying to read this on a tiny screen.


I admire your pursuit of sonic perfection. I cant imagine what my wife would say if I said I wanted to re-do theater walls for better performance.
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post #1387 of 1407 Old 06-27-2015, 10:59 PM
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Just tried it....difficult and doesn't really work....grrrrr
The hand saw cuts 1/2 lb foam like butter. Nothing short of a power tool will cut 2 lb foam and even them it will be tough. Did you try getting a piece of bandsaw blade? One that is wide enough and stiff enough to go into a sawzall?

You never see the installers cutting this stuff, unless it is just the odd bump.

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #1388 of 1407 Old 06-27-2015, 11:22 PM
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"It was VERY slow going at first and we couldn't figure out why. As it turns out, I had used exterior decking screws to fasten the OSB layer. The security of this screw was MUCH better than standard drywall screws, plus the screw was thicker and more difficult to cut. We decided to change our approach and simply pull the screw through the OSB using prybars. This was a big effort in its own right, to be honest. We removed the first piece, although there was a bit of damage to the drywall later."

The deck screws are either #8 or #10 while the DW screws are probably #6 . If the DW screws pulled out easily look to see if the thread is fine or course like the deck screws. Fine thread DW screws are actually meant for steel studs and don't hold well in wood. The course DW screws are meant for wood studs and hold much better, especially on ceilings! Screws are made with a much harder metal which is why they chew through saw blades faster than nails. Getting bi-metal blades helps some. I like Lennox blades.

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #1389 of 1407 Old 06-28-2015, 02:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Wow........simply wow!

I bet each panel weights a ton!

With reusing OSB and DW panels.......do you plan to trim down drywall 4-6" from each edge of OSB while attaching a filler piece of DW to attach each panel seam together?

Seems problematic if your intentions are to butt ends together and acoustic chalk seam. Adding rigidity to seam seems sensible. Yet scraping GG from OSB would be a major pain in butt and messy.......
Thanks Cory. Each panel is very heavy. In fact, while prying one panel off the wall it fell the last foot onto the bridge of my right foot. It definitely didn't tickle....

I'm not going to go insane about the overlapped seams for this layer, so a dab of acoustic caulk between the seams...which will be on the studs...is the plan. Since we were prying these sheets off the framing, there was some edge damage. I will have to re-square all of the edges using a circular saw prior to reinstallation.

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Have to take down the marquee?
It's out for repair...it kept displaying incorrect completion dates.

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I'd feel inclined to add a third layer with or without GG to get a fresh surface, conceal seams, and add mass - but I don't think that's the plan. I'm sure whatever TMcG has devised will come out as he plans.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Since I have to cut this material down and re-square the edges, most of the damage will be in the off-cuts. I'll end up with nothing but butt joints and some old screw holes to fill.

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I admire your pursuit of sonic perfection. I cant imagine what my wife would say if I said I wanted to re-do theater walls for better performance.
I framed the whole room in a morning, so only about 4 days of effort was lost in removing the sheet material and re-framing. She's also happy about me making the room as soundproof as possible....hence the double layers of 5/8" with Green Glue in between all the ceiling joists you see in the pictures.

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The hand saw cuts 1/2 lb foam like butter. Nothing short of a power tool will cut 2 lb foam and even them it will be tough. Did you try getting a piece of bandsaw blade? One that is wide enough and stiff enough to go into a sawzall?
I have 1/2 pound in other areas of my house and it's very soft and easy to tear out. I don't have a grinder, so I bought the longest Sawzall blade I could find which was 12" long. It cuts through just fine, but it will take a while.

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The deck screws are either #8 or #10 while the DW screws are probably #6 . If the DW screws pulled out easily look to see if the thread is fine or course like the deck screws. Fine thread DW screws are actually meant for steel studs and don't hold well in wood. The course DW screws are meant for wood studs and hold much better, especially on ceilings! Screws are made with a much harder metal which is why they chew through saw blades faster than nails. Getting bi-metal blades helps some. I like Lennox blades.
Right. I had forgotten I used the rest of a box I had laying around. The other screws were course drywall screws, not fine thread, but I think you are misunderstanding what we did....the screws remained in the studs and pulled through the OSB sheet material. I pounded the pull-through blowout flat the best I could. Not every screw was left in the studs, some stayed in the OSB and had to be manually pulled through with pliers.

Last edited by TMcG; Yesterday at 05:48 AM.
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post #1390 of 1407 Old 06-28-2015, 09:42 AM
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"Thanks for the vote of confidence. Since I have to cut this material down and re-square the edges, most of the damage will be in the off-cuts. I'll end up with nothing but butt joints and some old screw holes to fill."

Just keep in mind your 16" centers.

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #1391 of 1407 Old Yesterday, 08:18 AM
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Wow a lot of work and progress!


A couple of things... with 9' ceilings rather then stand 8' drywall on end you could have bought 54" wide sheets and laid them horizontally. Were you intent on re-using the old stuff?


That steel I-beam, already there? Can't quite decipher the writing on the side, what are it's dimensions and span?


I have a center main beam that runs through my space, would love to put an I-Beam in and remove one of the posts!
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post #1392 of 1407 Old Yesterday, 09:47 AM
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Wow a lot of work and progress!


A couple of things... with 9' ceilings rather then stand 8' drywall on end you could have bought 54" wide sheets and laid them horizontally. Were you intent on re-using the old stuff?
He bought 54" sheets to go over the reused drywall.

Tim
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post #1393 of 1407 Old Yesterday, 09:56 AM
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He bought 54" sheets to go over the reused drywall.

Tim
I'm now confused!

From my understanding, Tim is using just two layers.......OSB + DW ie the reused/recycled panels for part of room. As your suggesting, adding a third layer would make sense in this situation but three layers isn't needed and is overkill......also Tim stated he was going to use two layers which is a good call- three layers would work too. Am I missing something?

Granted, I haven't been following carefully as I just finish a 4500 driving trip and still suffering from all those time zone changes.
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post #1394 of 1407 Old Yesterday, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow a lot of work and progress!
Thanks!

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A couple of things... with 9' ceilings rather then stand 8' drywall on end you could have bought 54" wide sheets and laid them horizontally. Were you intent on re-using the old stuff?
In the spirit of a high value theater, I used sheets of 1/2" 4x8 sheetrock I had left over from another project. I wasn't going with separate decoupled walls and heavy 5/8" materials before scope creep reared its ugly head.

None of my local suppliers carry any OSB sheet material that is 54" wide or more than 8' long.

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That steel I-beam, already there? Can't quite decipher the writing on the side, what are it's dimensions and span? I have a center main beam that runs through my space, would love to put an I-Beam in and remove one of the posts!
The 10 stands for 'W10' which is a standard size as per ASTM. The 30 stands for 30 pounds per linear foot. I don't know what 180 5/8 stands for. It looks like the beam length, but considering that beam is almost 17.5 feet long, that doesn't even add up in inches.

There was supposed to be a 4" steel support column underneath the steel beam in the middle of the room.....but I paid a structural engineer before we broke ground to find a way to remove this post. They upsized from a W6 to a W10 beam, increased the thickness of that W10 and then added a joist/steel plate/joist structural sandwich you can see in some of the pics above. There is one joist labeled 'beam' in black paint where you can see this increased load being carried. It's also the joist with the through-bolts.

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He bought 54" sheets to go over the reused drywall.

Tim
No, I bought the 54" 5/8" sheets to go over the 5/8" OSB for the new theater walls. The repurposed material will simply be mudded / taped as-normal. I should be no problem for those guys to make it look perfect.

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I'm now confused!

From my understanding, Tim is using just two layers.......OSB + DW ie the reused/recycled panels for part of room. As your suggesting, adding a third layer would make sense in this situation but three layers isn't needed and is overkill......also Tim stated he was going to use two layers which is a good call- three layers would work too. Am I missing something?
Sorry for the confusion. From the theater working outwards I will have....

5/8" Drywall
Green Glue
5/8" OSB
2x4 Framing filled with R13 insulation
1" air gap
2x4 (or 2x6) framing filled with R13 (or R19) insulation
1/2" OSB
Green Glue
1/2" Drywall

In other words, the new theater walls will be two layers of 5/8" and attached to a new decoupled wall. The house framing (non-decoupled) will get the repurposed double 1/2" layer on the very outside. Make sense?
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post #1395 of 1407 Old Yesterday, 11:06 AM
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So room within a room rather than clips and channel for the walls and the Kinetics hangers for the ceiling?

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Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
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post #1396 of 1407 Old Yesterday, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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So room within a room rather than clips and channel for the walls and the Kinetics hangers for the ceiling?
Yes, room within a room but the walls are completely decoupled from their attachment points. The walls are built out first and then the ceiling is suspended with channel and channel hangers within the confines of the walls. Wall / ceiling interface is sealed with 1/8" bead of Sikaflex 1A.
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post #1397 of 1407 Old Yesterday, 12:10 PM
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Ahhh I see (almost), so in the picture titled "The completed wall!", is that where that I-beam ends, at the stairs?

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post #1398 of 1407 Old Yesterday, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Ahhh I see (almost), so in the picture titled "The completed wall!", is that where that I-beam ends, at the stairs?
Ahhh - now I see the confusion. There are two beams....one that runs from left to right smack dab in the middle of the theater. That's the beam with the writing where you reposted the picture. That starts at the outside foundation wall and ends at the stairwell wall.

The other beam is at the rear of the theater and runs across the entire midline of the house. A 2x6 wall is framed under this steel beam to create the back walls for the closets and hangout area on the other side of the theater. This wall is coupled to the structure of the house. In the next week or so I will be building four all-new decoupled walls for the theater which will sit about 1" away from the walls you see pictured above. In other words, replacing all the framing that I just removed to take down the double layer sheet material (that was now on the wrong side of the structured walls) and cut down the closed cell foam to the proper depth.

I hope that clears things up!
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post #1399 of 1407 Old Today, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Deconstruction continues....unfortunately

I was down in the basement earlier this morning setting up the room as a work shop to build the soundproof back boxes and I discovered a big problem with the theater entrance. Here is my 6' level pressed against the strike side of the door framing outside the room.


And here is the gap if the framing was plumb


Yeah, that's huge. The last thing I need is for a twisted entryway, even though the soundproof door will swing inward on the decoupled theater walls. The split jamb should be even.

Stepping back you can see the twisting and unevenness in the entryway framing


Here you can see the top plate doesn't follow along with the structural joist above, which is fairly parallel to other structure.


I've also not been happy with the open mechanical transfer area (connects with a soffit just outside the theater) in the upper left of this picture. I was going to scab in some sort of framing and sheet material once all the lines were tidied up, but now that I have this door issue to deal with it's looking like it would be better (and easier) to rip everything out and reframe.


I needed to reframe the marquee area above the door since the cutout dimensions were different from what I was told due to a taper in the body and since the factory mounting will not work without modification. The marquee was designed for surface mounting with a roller switch to turn it on/off. I'm recessing the fixture and hardwiring it to a switch, so there's a bit of simple engineering I have to do to make it work.

Unfortunately it looks like a bit more regress before the progress can start again.
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post #1400 of 1407 Old Today, 08:29 AM
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^^ Agreed, better to get everything plumb now, save a lot of headaches later!
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I see you have the floor chaulked, so I presume that that is where you want the line of the wall. Can you not simply remove/cut screws/nails holding the top plate and knock it over to plumb the wall? Does the space below the door header not allow enough space to set the jamb header level (usually there would be 1" left for adjustments, also 1" on the width). The door header 2x4's should actually be oriented vertically with a strip of 1/2" ply between them. They are less likely to warp down onto the door jamb that way.

A way to eliminate the beams from the ceiling is to do what is referred to as "Beam Up". The beam is sized accordingly to the height of the joist and have lumber bolted to both sides of the web to nail joist hanger to. This is the method I used to keep a flat ceiling in my kitchen reno. There are 3 W10 x 47 beams hidden in the ceiling.

This is advice more for the inexperienced DIYers...have you turned the level around, so that the other face of the level is against the stud (same end up), just to make sure that the bubble is exactly the same amount off (in the same direction)? And then turn the level end-for-end and do the same thing to check for consistency in the bubbles? I have found that very many brand new levels, even in the expensive category have at least one bubble off plumb or level. Always check all bubbles before investing in a level. The bubble vials can also be knocked out of true by dropping the level.

I know the frustration, but keep up the great work Tim. You are my hero!

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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Now I understand why you are caulking seams together..............

You'll find four layers, two in dedicared room and two outside room will do quite well with ULF and will completely stop HF in it's tracks. I've done something similar but used 2 x 6, r-24, and double layer inside/outside of room. Does a great job for sound containment........yet your room with in a room construction should be even better. You won't be disappointed with results.

To bad room isn't floating floor.........with your planned ULF, would be epic!
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I like pictures Keep up the good work... you'll be finished by 2020.
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-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1404 of 1407 Old Today, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I see you have the floor chaulked, so I presume that that is where you want the line of the wall. Can you not simply remove/cut screws/nails holding the top plate and knock it over to plumb the wall? Does the space below the door header not allow enough space to set the jamb header level (usually there would be 1" left for adjustments, also 1" on the width). The door header 2x4's should actually be oriented vertically with a strip of 1/2" ply between them. They are less likely to warp down onto the door jamb that way.
I thought about that earlier today, but I don't like the way this wall is framed. It would be easier to start over and only repurpose the door entry area. I hear what you are saying about the door header, but this wall won't actually contain the door and shouldn't sag one bit considering all the screws holding it together. The chalk lines you see were there to help me set the original decoupled wall. I will be chalking new lines for the decoupled wall to take advantage of the slight amount of room I am picking up through removing sheet material and cutting down foam. I will re-frame this entryway wall using my decoupled wall chalk lines as reference so I am completely parallel and at the exact right distance away.

I'm actually pretty fired up about this and am Hell-bent to tear it all down and rebuild tonight.

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A way to eliminate the beams from the ceiling is to do what is referred to as "Beam Up". The beam is sized accordingly to the height of the joist and have lumber bolted to both sides of the web to nail joist hanger to. This is the method I used to keep a flat ceiling in my kitchen reno. There are 3 W10 x 47 beams hidden in the ceiling.
Here they call it 'packing out' the beam and recessing it. I would have loved to have a flat ceiling, but I made a hard choice to not recess this steel beam because it would have cut off any ability to run the HVAC supplies to the front of the room and any wiring, conduit, etc. Yes, you can drill small holes in the beam for wire transfer but I didn't want to get into all of that.

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Originally Posted by just jim View Post
This is advice more for the inexperienced DIYers...have you turned the level around, so that the other face of the level is against the stud (same end up), just to make sure that the bubble is exactly the same amount off (in the same direction)? And then turn the level end-for-end and do the same thing to check for consistency in the bubbles? I have found that very many brand new levels, even in the expensive category have at least one bubble off plumb or level. Always check all bubbles before investing in a level. The bubble vials can also be knocked out of true by dropping the level.

I know the frustration, but keep up the great work Tim. You are my hero!
The level is dead-on...my framing is dead-off... It's nice to make hero status...just let me know if/when I reach demigod!
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post #1405 of 1407 Old Today, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Now I understand why you are caulking seams together..............

You'll find four layers, two in dedicared room and two outside room will do quite well with ULF and will completely stop HF in it's tracks. I've done something similar but used 2 x 6, r-24, and double layer inside/outside of room. Does a great job for sound containment........yet your room with in a room construction should be even better. You won't be disappointed with results.

To bad room isn't floating floor.........with your planned ULF, would be epic!
Since both layers are already stuck together, I no longer have the ability to overlap seams for this repurposed material on the outside of the theater. A small bead of caulk will give me a little peace of mind. Having room within a room construction and dual damped layers on the inside / outside of this massive wall structure is how I built my last theater and the LFE was practically non-existent outside the room. Most times you couldn't even tell the theater was running...but that was only with two 15s. We'll see how this goes with all the 24s and 18s.

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I like pictures Keep up the good work... you'll be finished by 2020.
Remind me to kick you in the Jimmy the next time I see you.... lol
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post #1406 of 1407 Old Today, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post
Have to take down the marquee?
It's out for repair...it kept displaying incorrect completion dates.


LOL!

I don't know how you find time to actually work on this thing when you have so many comments to answer.
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Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #1407 of 1407 Old Today, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Wall is gone. Will be rebuilt tomorrow night.
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