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post #1591 of 1616 Old 07-16-2016, 02:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Rough Mechanical Rework, part 1

I am going to break up the rough mechanical rework into a few different posts because the work was so extensive. To be brief, every single rough mechanical system you can think of had to be completely redone and reworked - 3 HVAC line sets, plumbing drain pipe, plumbing supply lines, three gas lines including the main line into the house, a bunch of 240v and 120v electrical lines...everything.

All of this needed to be reworked to get out of the way of my new framing and so I could keep the walls square. I tackled this part of the project at different times, so you may see some skipping around in the pictures.

But first, allow me to show you the mess of mechanicals the builder created. Not only were the lines and pipes running amok out into the room, but they also passed underneath - and not through - the outer joist:



No elbows were used on the plumbing, gas pipes were minimally secured, line sets hung low in the room...



The water lines were loosely secured and crisscrossed the drain line:

And finally, here is the soffit outside the theater with all the mounting clamps, staples, etc. removed (by me) in preparation for the reconfiguration. I also removed the side of the soffit for easy access and installation of the new theater entry wall:


I wish I had better photos of the mess and from wider angles, but this is where I started. The goal was to rerun / refashion everything so I could keep the theater framing square, run all the way to the ceiling and preserve soundproofing.

But first things first and topping my list was getting the stupid return air duct out of my way. I never cut the 25 foot long piece to length and it's still longer than I'll eventually need when it's installed in the soffit.



But at least now it was up and out of the way:


Next, I carefully measured and cut my water supply lines at the right height to add elbows. I did this to keep both water lines as compact and as tight to the ceiling joists as possible:


It turns out I don't have a *final* photo handy, but I used all new pipe clamps to get these lines dead straight and as tight as possible to the pack out on top of the steel beam.


You'll notice one of my white pipes turned blue. You can see it in the photos above, but there was a coupling in the cold supply line which landed right at the steel stanchion. I didn't want any chance of the metal fitting knocking against the metal post, so I ran a completely new line so it would be fitting free. I then ran these lines behind the statnchion and used pipe wrap around both pipes to ensure nothing would move, rattle, or rub.


Unfortunately this is the best photo I have of the original drain pipe configuration which basically came out of the ceiling and made its bend several inches below the joist and was out into the room as far as it could be.


I carefully measured where my new rear stud wall would be, then added enough space for two layers of 5/8" sheet material and 3/4" blocking as a cleat behind the pipe so it could be boxed in later. I couldn't run the pipe behind the wall. I mounted temporary 2x4s so the leading face was on the same plane as this future 3/4" cleat. This allowed me to reconfigure the pipe tightly to the front of the stud and know I had the right spacing.



A second temporary stud at the theater entry wall kept this same position. In the picture below you can see how I used both temporary studs for spacing. And yes, that's the completed drain line. As I said, the pictures skip around and I took a limited number of photos:


Here's some test fitting:


Final test fit:


All glued up. The first fitting is tight to the joist but I have enough room to slide a bit of rubber above it as a buffer against rattles:


Not shown are the three trips to Lowes I made in one night. The first to get the supplies, the second because I didn't have all the right fittings, and the last trip after I still didn't have all the right fittings and the glue set up on me too quickly for one of the correct fittings (ugh!). I threw down the gauntlet and bought $126 in 3" pipe fittings. I was NOT going back to Lowes that night. Ended up returning $118 of the fittings, FYI.


Next up were the HVAC line sets. Obviously you need a licensed professional to come in and handle this part, but I was going to plot the exact path these pipes needed to take. I decided using the inside pocket of the steel beam was the best utilization of space and would work out well.

I needed a way to mount the line sets, so I thoroughly cleaned the steel beam and ripped 3/4" plywood to fill the pocket. I attached the plywood using a good amount of PL Premium and 'clamped' it by putting scrap 2x4 blocking on the face and then using scrap 2x4 blocking with 2 screws to compress the scrap blocking into the plywood while the glue set.


I was originally just going to add the plywood for the line set area, but after thinking about it, I decided to run it all the way out of the theater because it would be convenient to mount the 2" orange conduit and low voltage wiring to the plywood on the other side of the room. So that's what I did...


It was hard getting the plywood and bracing in place behind the support column, but I eventually worked it in.


And finally I extended the plywood insert all the way outside the theater:


Everything cleaned up and waiting for the glue to dry. Reconfiguring the HVAC line sets on the left hand side of the room was up next.......

Last edited by TMcG; 07-16-2016 at 03:24 AM.
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post #1592 of 1616 Old 07-18-2016, 03:44 AM
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No elbows were used on the plumbing, gas pipes were minimally secured, line sets hung low in the room...



The water lines were loosely secured and crisscrossed the drain line:



Who the hell would think that is a good idea to run PVC water pipes like that?! There is no way that should have passed any inspection. Gotta love it!
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post #1593 of 1616 Old 07-18-2016, 07:24 AM
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BTW, nice clean up of the plumbing, it looks way better now, sad that it was considered done correctly before...

So it looks like drywall in between the floor joists? What is the theory here?

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post #1594 of 1616 Old 07-18-2016, 12:13 PM
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I saw that too and was going to ask if you thought it was worth doing. I've been considering it for my build.

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post #1595 of 1616 Old 07-19-2016, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post
BTW, nice clean up of the plumbing, it looks way better now, sad that it was considered done correctly before...

So it looks like drywall in between the floor joists? What is the theory here?
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I saw that too and was going to ask if you thought it was worth doing. I've been considering it for my build.

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GG+DW+GG+DW on the backside of the floor above (between floor joists) significantly reduces footfall noise from the floor above. Particularly with hardwood and/or tile floors above.

I did one layer, and if I had it to do over I'd probably go ahead and add the second layer. You can tell a huge difference listening to people/pets walking in the area above my theater vs. other areas in my basement without the DW between the joists.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #1596 of 1616 Old 07-19-2016, 07:13 AM
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Thanks JPA, good to know. Actually, it's BAD to know because now I'll want to do it which means more work. Thanks JPA!

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post #1597 of 1616 Old 07-19-2016, 07:14 AM
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Great work!

As an aside, I just did the DD + GG between my joists this weekend and it reminded me how much I hate overhead work. Man, I was beat up and sore when it was done.
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post #1598 of 1616 Old 07-19-2016, 07:17 AM
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Thanks JPA, good to know. Actually, it's BAD to know because now I'll want to do it which means more work. Thanks JPA! 😡

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I'm not going to lie, it's one of the worst jobs in a build. You've got to deal with all the nails - you can either cut them off or bend them over, just be careful not to drive them back up through the floor above - and you usually have to cut each piece of drywall differently because the joists are rarely perfectly spaced or perfectly square.

That said, if you're room is under a kitchen, living room, etc., with hard floors and lots of traffic, it's well worth the effort.
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post #1599 of 1616 Old 07-19-2016, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I'm not going to lie, it's one of the worst jobs in a build. You've got to deal with all the nails - you can either cut them off or bend them over, just be careful not to drive them back up through the floor above - and you usually have to cut each piece of drywall differently because the joists are rarely perfectly spaced or perfectly square.

That said, if you're room is under a kitchen, living room, etc., with hard floors and lots of traffic, it's well worth the effort.
Hmmm, interesting, but for me it's not going to happen, too many wires and ducts in the way!

Besides it's just the wife and I at home now so there will be no footsteps above us unless it is part of an Atmos soundtrack...

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post #1600 of 1616 Old 07-20-2016, 12:26 AM
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Unfortunately, when running PEX tubing it is usually done without 90's for a reason. Less water hammer and with this particular flavour of PEX, which doesn't get expanded for the fittings, the flow is reduced. These fittings will reduce a 1/2" tube down to 3/8" or 3/4" down to 5/8". With PEX A tubing, such as Rehau and Uponor, the tubing is expanded to accept a fitting with the same bore as the tubing itself, so "no" restriction. The tools, however are much more expensive...and the tubing is also a bit more.

I trust the copper lines at the beginning are gas (with the yellow tape) as they are soldered with flux and lead-based solder. Too bad they don't wipe the joints after to avoid the green corrosion eating the copper (I know it takes an extra minute). A/C lines get silver solder which doesn't require flux.

I hate to ask, but where was the contractor during all this "work"? He should have been all over the trades to "clean-up" their act. Unfortunately when one trade gets away with this, everybody follows suit. This is the problem with piece work. In and out as fast as possible to maximize profits. Advise for anybody building with a contractor; it should be made clear to them what your expectations are. Pipe/conduit/gas/electrical/etc. pathways should be defined and everyone made aware of them. There is also an order to who gets first dibs on running material. A plumber can't run up with a drain to get around a wire or duct. If you want a clear ceiling, there are usually ways to attain this, by planning. And you can get an engineer to sign-off on drilling a hole through a steel beam. Most of the strength is in the upper and lower flanges. The web is mainly to keep the flanges apart.

Nice clean-up, Tim!

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post #1601 of 1616 Old 07-20-2016, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys. Not much time lately...will explain later. I've gone back and quoted three previous posts which cover the double layer ceiling drywall installation. Enjoy the fruits of my torture.

Like JPA said, it makes a HUGE difference in damping the amount of sound coming through the ceiling into the theater room. Now when my 3 year old son runs across the floor upstairs can I hear it? Absolutely. Clear as a bell. But the sound transmitting into the room now vs. prior to the installation is significantly diminished. I can't wait to install the wave hangers, channels and ceiling layers to hear the final result. I can rest easy knowing I took every available chance to beef up the soundproofing.


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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
PROGRESS UPDATE:

As promised, I am out of historical "build" pictures to post and virtually all pictures from this point forward are of actual real-time progress. The very first item on my "to-do" list was to install two layers of 5/8" drywall in between all of my ceiling joists to deal with the potential footfall noise from the hardwood floors immediately above the theater. Furthermore, right above the theater is our main two-story foyer so any sound that would escape the theater through all the ceiling layers would be in the main part of the house and potentially heard in the bedrooms and everywhere else.

Unfortunately the Brazilian Walnut hardwood floors we have installed upstairs had to be installed with beefy flooring staples that are about 2" long, so there are over a thousand (at least) of these staple ends poking through the ceiling of the theater in between the joists that have to be dealt with. There are also tons of missed nails, gobs of Liquid Nails construction adhesive and plenty of other obstacles in the way for the first layer of drywall to make intimate contact with the underside of the subfloor and allow the Green Glue to really do its job.

A few pictures of the "stuff" I had to deal with...

TONS of missed subfloor nails like this


Hundreds of staple ends poking through


Glops of Liquid Nails ooze everywhere (this is a relatively small amount pictured here), especially near the ceiling where the drywall will go which must be removed


And this shatstorm of finish nails that I don't know what the builder was doing (although it is under the newel post area of our upstairs stairs


I planned to take some pictures after I was done, but considering I can no longer climb a ladder for the time being, you'll just have to know that it's all done. Luckily, there was a bit of "blow-out" where each staple was poking through which allowed most of the staple ends to nest in the recess when hammered down flat. I was originally using my standard framing hammer but switched to my mini 3-lb. sledge hammer for greater...uh..."influence" for the staples to lie flat and embed in the OSB subloor. I also took a couple of my trim prybars and my framing hammer to remove the globs of Liquid Nails which worked very well - I'll post a few pics of what I did to make it a relatively quick and efficient job. I then used my Sawzall with an 18" metal blade to flush cut all protruding nails. I don't have it pictured, but the only other thing I will probably do is to square-up the spray foam that is against the rim joists for a tight fit against the drywall. I won't remove much, just enough to get a square edge for the drywall to lay against.

I also FINALLY located a metal fabricator that will produce my decorative metal inserts for the columns at a price I can live with. In fact, they said they would actually be cutting all six 1/4" panels at once in a single shot with their laser cutter. I asked if I could watch the process when my job goes to fabrication, so I should be able to post pictures. I am still not settled on a design, but I did make a highly-detailed sketch of my columns to scale to work out all of the dimensions once and for all. I'll be posting some pictures of my designs for everyone's opinion when the time comes.

Happy New Year to everyone!
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PROGRESS UPDATE:

As promised, here is this weekend's progress update. I ended up working from 2PM until early evening on Friday, 9AM until 7PM Saturday and today from 7AM until 4PM. About half of this time I had help, the other half I spent piecing in the small stuff by myself, cutting tons more screws and nails from the subfloor above that missed the joists and scraping off every last drop of Liquid Nails "ooze" from when the subfloor was originally installed and left big blobs running down the sides of the joists everywhere.

First, I plan to call the CIA tomorrow to inform them that hangiing 5/8" drywall between ceiling joists would be a much more successful enhanced interrogation technique than waterboarding. In fact there is probably a law preventing judges from assigning this task to convicted criminals as it would fall under "cruel and unusual punishment". In a word, it - SUCKED ....badly. Compounding the issue was being on ladders for virtually the entire time so my tender right foot is completely shredded as I type this. But I wasn't going to let a little excruciating pain slow me down when I had some help, so I started self-medicating late Saturday morning 354cc (12 ounces) of Miller Lite at a time. Yeah, it was that kind of project.

But enough whining....and on to the complaining!! Only three pairs of joists across the entire span of the room were parallel to one another. Over the course of an 8' span the joists could be out as much as 1 1/4". To make matters worse, some of the joists had a bow to them which meant that I had to either put the drywall up in smaller sections to follow the bow....or become a wood drywall-smith on longer pieces with my jigsaw and drywall sander which involved multiple test fittings per piece until everything fit snugly with a gap of 1/8" or less, but typically things ended up very tight. Since I was using 28 oz. tubes of Green Glue, I didn't know my exact application rate, but it was somewhere in the realm of 2-3 tubes per 4x8 sheet. Maybe it was a bit on the heavy side, but I'd rather have too much than too little for this important soundproofing step. The real time-waster came with having to recreate square again and again for accurate translation of plot points onto the next piece of drywall before cutting. I ended up being fairly proficient at this, but it still wasted time needlessly and created a bit more scrap than I was expecting.

So through monumental effort I was able to complete the first full layer 100% and start the second layer about 3:30PM today...which is when I discovered that I only had a handful of 2" screws to secure the second layer through the first and to the subfloor above. I couldn't find the additional box of 2" screws I thought I had, so my day was done....right after I went to Lowe's and picked up 10 pounds to make sure I had enough to do the second layer.

Needless to say, but I am not looking forward to the same painstaking process for the second layer. Also for the second layer I plan to overlap all the seams of the first layer and seal all of the edges with acoustic caulking FWIW. I plan to chip away at the second layer every evening this week so by the time Saturday rolls around I would have 15 - 20 hours of progress under my belt and can hopefully finish by the end of next weekend. Had all of the joists been parallel I am sure this posting would have read much differently and this part of the job would be complete. I might even take one day off from work since I never seem to get all of my vacation time in by the end of the year anyhow. At least it would be a very valid excuse to take off and get the work done.

Now on to what you have all been waiting for - the progress pics.....

The ceremonial first board installed:


What happens to Green Glue application patterns when the friend you have helping you is an engineer:


End of progress on Friday, three full joist bays and a ton of other prep work complete:


Progress as of Saturday morning. You can see some very slight gaps where the joists are bowed. This set of joists pictured were the worst offenders in terms of not being parallel to one another.


First layer complete!


Completed first layer pic 2:


Completed first layer pic 3:


First piece of second layer (you can see the white edge of the second layer):


First piece of second layer caulked at edges. Once I confirmed the fit of the second layer, I caulked the edges of the first layer, applied Green Glue to the back of the second layer, installed the second layer and then immediately caulked the second layer. I figured this way all of the caulking in the side gaps would cure at the same time. Took about 1/2 a tube just for this one piece which means I am looking at about 15 of the 28oz tubes to do the whole ceiling.

Quote:Originally Posted by RTROSE 

I'm holding you to the progress pics. You have till Monday to produce them. Otherwise be prepared for endless hounding!

Hounding averted!

Comments, gift certificates to Massage Envy and bottles of Johnny Walker Black Label welcomed!!
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PROGRESS UPDATE:

I received a call on Monday from my friend who gave me a hand with the drywall strips last weekend saying that he had Thursday available to help me. I didn't waste a moment of time and filed a request to take the day off. We ended up working from about 8:30AM until 6:30PM yesterday, stopping only for a combined lunch drive-through / supply replenishment trip as I had run out of caulking. I couldn't believe how much caulking is needed to complete this part of the project and I severely underestimated how much caulking was needed. But I guess in retrospect, even if I had a nice, tight 1/8" or less gap I am still filling that 1/8" gap to a 5/8" depth....twice.

Just so everyone knows the process I used, I did no caulking during the installation of the first layer. Instead, I waited until the fit of the second layer was confirmed before caulking the first layer. Then, while the first layer was still wet, I installed the second layer with the Green Glue then caulked this second layer immediately. I did a fairly meticulous job of caulking the first layer, taking a small drywall knife to scrape any excess caulking completely flush with the first layer of drywall. Once the second layer was in I smoothed out the caulking for the second layer with my finger which gives a slightly rounded finish bead at the intersection of the drywall and the side of the joist. As much as I took my time fitting the first layer of drywall, I REALLY took my time fitting the second layer to ensure a really nice and tight fit with a slight gap on all sides to allow for caulking. I also made sure there was significant overlap on the first layer's seams by staggering the seams of the second layer. Anytime I had a butt joint I laid a bead of caulking for when I pushed the two pieces together to really get an ultra-tight seal. If my house flipped upside down I feel completely confident this basement ceiling would hold water.

All-in-all I have to say the job looks really good but I will let you be the judge of that for yourself. I have 39 smaller pieces left until I can say that I am completely done with both layers so hopefully between this evening's work and tomorrow's work I can declare this part of the project complete. But even before the last of the caulking is dry, I am going to immediately be moving on into the wall decoupling brackets. To be perfectly honest, I think it will be a dream to stop working with heavy drywall and caulking above my head and get back to normal wood-based construction!!!

Now, on to the pics:
Back right of the theater


Back left of the theater, all seams fully caulked


Close up of one joist bay


Close up of another joist bay. You can see a light amount of the caulking "squeeze out" between the butt joints.


More progress pics to follow tomorrow, hopefully showing the completed ceiling soundproofing.
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post #1602 of 1616 Old 07-20-2016, 10:22 PM
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Did you use acoustical caulk, or normal caulk? I just got DD and GG up between the joists, but did not use caulk yet. I was not sure if it was necessary since that part is coupled to the unsealed floor and not part of the room within a room. I may add it now, however, after reading your last post.
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post #1603 of 1616 Old 07-21-2016, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Did you use acoustical caulk, or normal caulk? I just got DD and GG up between the joists, but did not use caulk yet. I was not sure if it was necessary since that part is coupled to the unsealed floor and not part of the room within a room. I may add it now, however, after reading your last post.
Well, I used normal acoustic caulk from HD / Lowes, not the really pricey stuff from Soundproofing Company. Although caulking all the seams was the professional advice at the time, this advice has since been revised to say no caulking is necessary since this sits behind the theater acoustic shell and any *real* differences between caulked and non caulked were immeasurable. Just make the drywall as tight as you can to make the project worthwhile. You don't want to do a slop job of it.
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post #1604 of 1616 Old 07-21-2016, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Well, I used normal acoustic caulk from HD / Lowes, not the really pricey stuff from Soundproofing Company. Although caulking all the seams was the professional advice at the time, this advice has since been revised to say no caulking is necessary since this sits behind the theater acoustic shell and any *real* differences between caulked and non caulked were immeasurable. Just make the drywall as tight as you can to make the project worthwhile. You don't want to do a slop job of it.
Got it, thanks. Great job by the way.

Man, what a PITA that was. I hate overhead work.
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post #1605 of 1616 Old 07-22-2016, 08:13 AM
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TMcG, that is one helluva lot of work, 5/8 to boot, simply incredible!

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post #1606 of 1616 Old 07-22-2016, 11:05 AM
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I will have to schedule a visit when you are ready for me for a work party.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1607 of 1616 Old 07-22-2016, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Got it, thanks. Great job by the way.

Man, what a PITA that was. I hate overhead work.
Thanks @jackkrash Believe it or not, but I am going to dig through the 'ol Stonewater Cinema drywall boneyard for 5/8" scrap (which most of it is) and cut call the small little pieces to encapsulate the drain line, HVAC line sets, plumbing lines, etc. so the ceiling is - quite literally - 100% covered. I have the drywall. I have the Green Glue. I have the technology. Why not, right?

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TMcG, that is one helluva lot of work, 5/8 to boot, simply incredible!
Yeah, total PITA. Refer to my CIA / enhanced interrogation techniques comment embedded in the previous posts above. I regret never taking a photo of it, but I literally had 3 or 4 grocery bags absolutely filled to the top with pure drywall dust after these two layers were in. I kept using my drywall rasp to account for any joist bow and non-parallel profiles so I could sneak up on the perfect fit for each joist bay.

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I will have to schedule a visit when you are ready for me for a work party.
Anytime, man! Although I have to say there will probably not be any big "work parties" for the remainder except for hanging the upper sheets of drywall on the walls. Just me toiling away all by my lonesome as it has been most of the time.

That being said....I think I've convinced myself it would be best to build the entire perimeter soffit on the floor and lift into position as one giant piece of finished carpentry. I'll be inviting all the guys in my neighborhood for that part of the project!!

Last edited by TMcG; 07-22-2016 at 01:47 PM.
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post #1608 of 1616 Old 07-22-2016, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Thanks @jackkrash Believe it or not, but I am going to dig through the 'ol Stonewater Cinema drywall boneyard for 5/8" scrap (which most of it is) and cut call the small little pieces to encapsulate the drain line, HVAC line sets, plumbing lines, etc. so the ceiling is - quite literally - 100% covered. I have the drywall. I have the Green Glue. I have the technology. Why not, right?
Thankful I just hauled my scraps to the dump, or I'd probably copy this idea. There is one drain/water pipe running down a wall, however, that probably needs covering. So I think I am going to do that one when I get some more drywall. Great/sick idea.
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post #1609 of 1616 Old Yesterday, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Progress Update

I'll post more theater update pics when I have the chance, but right now the theater is on a short hiatus while I make progress on a different side project....and since there is no progress without pictures, here you go...



Our new little man decided to come almost 5 weeks early (I suspect because he couldn't wait any longer to see the theater progress in-person). It has been touch and go for a while and many, many sleepless days and nights with around-the-clock care for both baby and mama, but both are now recovering at home.
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post #1610 of 1616 Old Yesterday, 10:00 AM
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Congrats...

He looks like he is a 'thinker'!

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post #1611 of 1616 Old Yesterday, 11:12 AM
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Dudeeeeee!!!! Congratulations! One of those trumps any theater any day!
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post #1612 of 1616 Old Yesterday, 12:58 PM
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Congratulations Tim to you and your wife. Glad to here everyone is doing well.

Creekside Stone Cinema
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post #1613 of 1616 Old Yesterday, 01:02 PM
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Congratulations TMcG, he's beautiful

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post #1614 of 1616 Old Yesterday, 01:47 PM
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Awesome!! Welcome Tim Jr to the AV world!!! Congrats.
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post #1615 of 1616 Old Yesterday, 08:09 PM
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Congratulations!
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post #1616 of 1616 Old Today, 03:19 AM
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Congrats! Glad to hear mom and baby are both doing well!

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
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