The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 61 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1801 of 1874 Old 01-24-2017, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
This was a hedge against inflation, right?
Definitely. Apparently I am also hedging against inflation in drywall, OSB, hardwood flooring, carpeting, doors, trim, insulation....

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Originally Posted by DougUSMC View Post
Awww, c'mon now man, you set me up. How could I NOT say that??
True. You missed my pro home theater tip about letting your putty pads acclimate a minimum of 4.5 years before use HERE.

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Originally Posted by just jim View Post
When can I expect this next "Kitchen" thread to start?
I'll post one pic of how I beefed up the structure underneath the kitchen area and get you the correct span numbers, FYI. I laminated 1/2" plywood to the side of all single joists before blocking as well.

The kitchen update has come and gone but I'll be happy to share a few photos of the final result if you'd like.

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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
Dennis feels the lack of blocking is a critical mistake that compromises soundproofing and renders the room unsuitable for audio playback...
Thank you very much for posting this. To be honest, I was unaware of any horizontal blocking outside of areas around the door and other loads (like I am doing around the steel beam). Should I block every single stud bay? Just one 2x4 block in the middle or 2-3 per bay?? Please let me know ASAP so I can get it done before insulating and closing up in the coming days!!
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post #1802 of 1874 Old 01-24-2017, 10:05 PM
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When using clips and channel, isn't the need for blocking eliminated as long as instructions for clip spacing are present? I remember we almost did standard stud spacing until soundproofing company told us to do 14"OC.

Same with clips--we were going to go with the standard isolation clip spacing for double layers, until again they provided a new clip spacing pattern for the room's three layers.

--Posted via Tapatalk, which actually is pretty cool.
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post #1803 of 1874 Old 01-25-2017, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Thank you very much for posting this. To be honest, I was unaware of any horizontal blocking outside of areas around the door and other loads (like I am doing around the steel beam). Should I block every single stud bay? Just one 2x4 block in the middle or 2-3 per bay?? Please let me know ASAP so I can get it done before insulating and closing up in the coming days!!
rabident's situation is different than most. The blocking was needed in his room because his walls were something like 12' tall. Tim, you should not need blocking due to your shorter walls and the fact that you are using OSB on your first layer. Blocking should not hurt, but I would say it's not absolutely required. It may be detrimental from the stand point of reducing whatever flex is left in your wall and reducing the slight low frequency benefit you would get from more flexible walls.

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post #1804 of 1874 Old 01-25-2017, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
When using clips and channel, isn't the need for blocking eliminated as long as instructions for clip spacing are present? I remember we almost did standard stud spacing until soundproofing company told us to do 14"OC.
I'm not using clips and channels on the interior walls as the entire wall assembly will be completely decoupled from structure. This also saves me a few hard-fought inches of room width.

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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
Tim, you should not need blocking due to your shorter walls and the fact that you are using OSB on your first layer. Blocking should not hurt, but I would say it's not absolutely required. It may be detrimental from the stand point of reducing whatever flex is left in your wall and reducing the slight low frequency benefit you would get from more flexible walls.
I hear you. On the other hand I have quite a bit of scrap and short pieces which could be used for blocking so I might just do it and be done with it, forgoing the slight amount of additional flexibility which may or may not exist or amount to anything in terms of real-world soundproofing. I also fired off a quick e-mail to Erskine this morning asking the simple question of doing it or not with 9' walls.
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post #1805 of 1874 Old 01-25-2017, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Thank you very much for posting this. To be honest, I was unaware of any horizontal blocking outside of areas around the door and other loads (like I am doing around the steel beam). Should I block every single stud bay? Just one 2x4 block in the middle or 2-3 per bay?? Please let me know ASAP so I can get it done before insulating and closing up in the coming days!!
My walls were 12' high. Dennis said 12' walls would normally have blocking at 1/3rd and 2/3rd wall height. As wall height gets lower, you need less blocking. The 10' walls in other parts of the house had 1 horizontal run (every stud pay, slightly staggered in height to make nailing easy). I'm not sure what is appropriate for your 9' walls. In the builder's defense, he wanted to add the blocking to the theater walls, but I asked him not to so we could follow the plans.

 

 

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post #1806 of 1874 Old 01-25-2017, 11:56 AM
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Mid-wall blocking is often put in walls at 48" oc to assist with hanging drywall. I've never seen a code requirement stating it was necessary for non-load bearing walls. I have seen code requiring blocking for taller load bearing wall.

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post #1807 of 1874 Old 01-25-2017, 12:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
Blocking is often put in walls at 48" oc to assist with hanging drywall. I've never seen a code requirement stating it was necessary for non-load bearing walls. I have seen code requiring blocking for taller load bearing wall.
This. Perhaps the other Tim can chime in. Although this Tim is pretty solid on code compliance.
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post #1808 of 1874 Old 01-26-2017, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Unless fireblocking is required, code does not apply to what I am considering with the blocking.

After a small flurry of e-mails yesterday, I do not need and will not install blocking. Second - and I can't believe I'm saying this - I will be using two layers of 5/8" drywall vs. having the first layer as OSB per comments from both Ted White and Dennis. Here are a couple excerpts from the exchange:

Quote:
The wall will not benefit from stiffening, so don't bother bracing. The 16" OC framing is stiff, and adding 1 1/4" of rock makes a mighty stiff wall.

Damping is optimized when the two halves of the system are the same stiffness. OSB is a different stiffness as well as less mass. If the OSB isn't necessary, I'd pass on it. It's also more $$, and you can apply a nail base where you need it (IF you even need it), rather than everywhere.
So there you have it. I've already called and ordered up the 10 additional sheets of 12' x 54" x 5/8" drywall I'll need to install two layers on the walls...and paid for delivery directly into the theater. I'll place a second order for the 16 sheets I'll need for the two ceiling layers when I am 100% ready to tackle that part. It's worth the extra delivery fee to me to NOT have that stuff sitting around.
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post #1809 of 1874 Old 01-26-2017, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Unless fireblocking is required, code does not apply to what I am considering with the blocking.

After a small flurry of e-mails yesterday, I do not need and will not install blocking. Second - and I can't believe I'm saying this - I will be using two layers of 5/8" drywall vs. having the first layer as OSB per comments from both Ted White and Dennis. Here are a couple excerpts from the exchange:



So there you have it. I've already called and ordered up the 10 additional sheets of 12' x 54" x 5/8" drywall I'll need to install two layers on the walls...and paid for delivery directly into the theater. I'll place a second order for the 16 sheets I'll need for the two ceiling layers when I am 100% ready to tackle that part. It's worth the extra delivery fee to me to NOT have that stuff sitting around.
Good call on the in-room drywall delivery. I ordered 184 sheets of drywall, and didn't blink twice at the $4 per sheet carry-in fee. The normal price was $3 per sheet, but then came the question "walk out or walk down basement?" the "walk down" added a dollar per sheet. Honestly, for the amount of work those guys did, it was probably underpayment. A small crane continuously hovered 5/8" drywall stacks over my front yard, and four guys were vertically filling home depot-style cart with drywall from the hovering stacks 4 or 5 sheets at a time, taking it to the back of the house over grass, and taking it down stairs. Some neighbors were standing outside, wondering why such disruptive activity was occurring on our normally quest street. Quite the experience.
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post #1810 of 1874 Old 01-26-2017, 02:52 PM
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As far as applying a nail base where you need it, that assumes you know in advance where you are going to need it... for the life of the room.

If Dennis says no blocking for you room, that clears it up for you. Below are the relevant quotes for mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post
I note from reviewing some of the pictures, there is no blocking. In most areas, a 12' wall will require blocking at the 1/3 and 2/3 locations (height).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post
Judging from the degree of compression, it would indicate there is very little compression of the clips and channel and the majority of the movement is structural ... which, aside from structural issues is serving to transmit vibratory energy into the structure of the house. That's not too much of a problem if your intent is to keep the room quiet. It is a problem if your intent is to keep the house quiet. (granted, the movement itself is absorbing energy which is a good thing).
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Under normal circumstances, a wall with that degree of flex would not be desirable in a playback space.

 

 

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post #1811 of 1874 Old 01-26-2017, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Lately I'm feeling like Sargeant Murtaugh when it comes to the prospect of carrying more heavy sheet materials from my driveway, all the way around the house and into the basement theater...

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post #1812 of 1874 Old 01-28-2017, 01:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Going Full Stupid....

I have a few significant equipment updates worth sharing...

First, I am the new owner of three Procella Audio P815-AMP speakers, specifically these exact speakers from @KBlaw2010 :


They are the self-amplified versions with integrated crossovers which means I'll need to run balanced XLR and separate 15A circuits for each speaker in my baffle wall. They will take my system capability from 'loud' to 'face-melting' as Kris puts it. I'm going to list my three Procella P610s if anyone is interested. It also means I should list one of my three Sherbourn PA7-350 amplifiers I was going to use for powering the P610s.

Second, I placed my order for two Stereo Integrity BHS-24 subwoofer drivers.



A pair of these should be able to crack my foundation walls which is always a positive thing, right? Truthfully I wanted the extra overhead (nearly triple!) of my current HS-24 drivers and not feel the urge to upgrade down the road. I want to entomb these in the front baffle wall and not touch them again for a very long time, if ever. If anyone is interested in my two brand new and unopened HS-24 drivers, let me know.

And I've made the decision to beef up the boxes for these BHS-24 drivers with a more robust design and matrix bracing cut by CNC. The box itself will still be made from the 1.5" thick Trupan MDF I have sitting to the side but the internal bracing will be upgraded from 1" hardwood dowels to interlaced cross bracing made from 13-ply birch, glued and screwed into place in custom mortises. The front baffle will still be two layers @ a full 3" thick and I have the baffle depth to fully recess the mounting flange on these woofers for a clean look.

This weekend is family time but I will post more updates when I can...hopefully the last of the archival progress pictures so this build moves into real-time progress.

Enjoy your weekend everyone!
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post #1813 of 1874 Old 01-28-2017, 05:10 AM
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Okay, so what in the world did @KBlaw2010 change over to? I guess I need to see what's going on in his world.
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post #1814 of 1874 Old 01-28-2017, 05:33 AM
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Man, you guys are going hard in the paint on those LCR's. And Tim, I guess a 24" sub isn't good enough so you had to buy a better 24" sub? Good lord I couldn't imagine the bone jarring and blurred vision that's going to take place in some of these rooms. My dual SVS Cylinders fill my little room up. They're 800 watts each with 12" drivers. I'm assuming there won't be any nails in this room, only screws. Otherwise they'll be backing out before calibration is finished!
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post #1815 of 1874 Old 01-29-2017, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
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In the strictest sense, a mini-split is a heat pump. You can pump the heat anywhere. Most people pump it outside, but you can pump it to another room in the house by putting the "outdoor" unit elsewhere in the basement or garage. That area just needs to be able to deal with the heat that's dumped there somehow (the heat you're pumping out of the room + the heat generated by the machinery doing the pumping).

Another option for winter might be a dedicated HRV/ERV for the room. It depends on your layout, but in some cases it's possible to install them as a stand alone system. It will bring in cooler fresh air in winter. That air will mix in the HT room, then get distributed to the rest of the basement through the HT return. That's how mine is setup. In the summer, it's a mixed bag since the summer air is slightly more humid & warmer than the outgoing air and needs extra conditioning, so I turn it off when it is very warm & humid outside. Or you could just straight ventilate for winter (without trying to recover humidity or heat). They make vents that go on the outside of the house that look like oversized dryer vents. 1 vent works to both exhaust air & bring in fresh air (at the same time).

The upshot of a non-zoned system according to my HVAC contractor is it reduces noise. Dennis claimed otherwise, so who knows, but there are formulas on engineering toolbox to calculate the amount of noise that dampeners introduce into system.



Only needs 2" depth to do what? What gets done with 2" that can't be done with 1" but makes 4" unnecessary?

I have the same decision to make myself.
I'm glad you brought this up. Yeah, so I saw awhile back someone did this. I think it was TheBland? He has his condenser set up in an unfinished part of his basement. And the hot air is pumped into this area. In winter time this is probably no big deal. Then I would turn it off in the summer.

It is next to impossible to get an HVAC contractor with mini spit experience. Hardly anyone is willing to even try it. But, I did mention this condenser in home idea to them and they did not think it would work. Then I asked them if I could just make a hole in my basement foundation and pump the air directly outside. My HOA does not allow the condenser to be in that location but they would not even see a small exhaust vent there. So I think I could get away with it. Anyway they did not even want to try it so I would need to do it myself and then pay someone to charge the system.

I am interested in the HRV/ERV idea. Is the air coming in the same temperature as the outside air? If so I would only use it in the winter just as you do. In the summer the temperature is fine. It is only the need for additional air exchanges that is lacking.
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post #1816 of 1874 Old 01-29-2017, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
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Man, you guys are going hard in the paint on those LCR's. And Tim, I guess a 24" sub isn't good enough so you had to buy a better 24" sub? Good lord I couldn't imagine the bone jarring and blurred vision that's going to take place in some of these rooms. My dual SVS Cylinders fill my little room up. They're 800 watts each with 12" drivers. I'm assuming there won't be any nails in this room, only screws. Otherwise they'll be backing out before calibration is finished!
Probably not far from the truth. I got to "experience" a 24'' sub at my friend d_c's. I actually sat on top of it while he went through the john wick club scene and Pulse for the ultimate near field experience. It felt kind of like your insides were being mixed up with a blender! The pressurization was nuts.

Bass is addictive. I have an Orbit Shifter LFU and I recently purchased 2 more Orbit Shifters. The room is absolutely crushed with just one. I will update my thread with that information soon.
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post #1817 of 1874 Old 01-29-2017, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post
I'm glad you brought this up. Yeah, so I saw awhile back someone did this. I think it was TheBland? He has his condenser set up in an unfinished part of his basement. And the hot air is pumped into this area. In winter time this is probably no big deal. Then I would turn it off in the summer.

It is next to impossible to get an HVAC contractor with mini spit experience. Hardly anyone is willing to even try it. But, I did mention this condenser in home idea to them and they did not think it would work. Then I asked them if I could just make a hole in my basement foundation and pump the air directly outside. My HOA does not allow the condenser to be in that location but they would not even see a small exhaust vent there. So I think I could get away with it. Anyway they did not even want to try it so I would need to do it myself and then pay someone to charge the system.

I am interested in the HRV/ERV idea. Is the air coming in the same temperature as the outside air? If so I would only use it in the winter just as you do. In the summer the temperature is fine. It is only the need for additional air exchanges that is lacking.
Grant - I have an ERV that works great for the Savoy. It brings in outside air and allows you to get your fresh air exchanges. When I designed the Savoy I told my HVAC engineer I wanted 6 fresh air exchanges per hour. If you need someone to talk to about options, let me know...I know a great resource.
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post #1818 of 1874 Old 01-29-2017, 02:41 PM
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Grant - I have an ERV that works great for the Savoy. It brings in outside air and allows you to get your fresh air exchanges. When I designed the Savoy I told my HVAC engineer I wanted 6 fresh air exchanges per hour. If you need someone to talk to about options, let me know...I know a great resource.
I am certainly interested. There are lots of knowledgable people on this forum but no HVAC pros near me that I can count on. So it would be nice to talk to one.
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post #1819 of 1874 Old 01-29-2017, 07:04 PM
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My HOA does not allow the condenser to be in that location but they would not even see a small exhaust vent there. So I think I could get away with it.

I am interested in the HRV/ERV idea. Is the air coming in the same temperature as the outside air? If so I would only use it in the winter just as you do. In the summer the temperature is fine. It is only the need for additional air exchanges that is lacking.
It was thebland that I was thinking of, I thought the hot side was in his garage. For ERV / HRV, you end up picking one. ERV recovers heat & cooling (and removes humidity from summer air), while HRV recovers heat only. So if you weren't going to run in the summer time, then probably HRV. It tries to transfer the heat / cool of the outgoing air to the incoming air. The goal is to make the temperature of the 2 air streams the same, but they aren't 100% efficient (with 70% being considered good when I was buying, and many suspected much worse real world). So it does end up end up cooling during the winter. It can also act as a room air purifier. If you didn't care about trying to recover any heat, then you could just straight ventilate in the winter time, which would be cheaper. I considered doing mini-split in my room, with hot side being under a covered porch, but fresh outside air is nice.

I can take a pic of the vent on the back of my house tomorrow. It doesn't look bad.

I've talked to Tim a few times about HVAC and would generally deffer to him for questions. All I know is what I researched for my situation, which was similar to yours, where I didn't have space for a 4th condenser to dedicate to the HT.

 

 

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post #1820 of 1874 Old 01-30-2017, 03:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I hope everyone had a nice weekend. I have to say, it was really nice to take a break from any projects.

This isn't the fully detailed post I was hoping to make, but thought I'd give a share some of the trials and tribulations which unexpectedly came from installing the front and right wall. Unfortunately it involved more foam removal....a lot more.

First, a victory photo of the finished result:


Here you can see where I hand carved out the foam to recess every single joist:


I carved out as much as 2.5" deep for some of the studs:






Straight-on view of the front right wall. I found a way to beef up my blocking around the beam and add the needed nail beds for the soffit work:


I'll explain why I had to recess the front wall into the foam in a later post, but it had to do with the steel beam being slightly tilted and not quite perpendicular in the room. And because the studs were recessed into the foam, the foam in between the studs needed scraped out so the R13 in each stud bay wouldn't be compressed. I think you see where this is going....two more giant contractor bags filled with foam scrap.
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post #1821 of 1874 Old 01-30-2017, 04:58 AM
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Wow, that sounds miserable, but really clean work!
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post #1822 of 1874 Old 01-30-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
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And I've made the decision to beef up the boxes for these BHS-24 drivers with a more robust design and matrix bracing cut by CNC. The box itself will still be made from the 1.5" thick Trupan MDF I have sitting to the side but the internal bracing will be upgraded from 1" hardwood dowels to interlaced cross bracing made from 13-ply birch, glued and screwed into place in custom mortises. The front baffle will still be two layers @ a full 3" thick and I have the baffle depth to fully recess the mounting flange on these woofers for a clean look.
Nice upgrade. Any idea what the final cabinet dimensions will be? Certainly enjoying your progress and looking forward to more (ahem, frequent) updates!
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post #1823 of 1874 Old 01-30-2017, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DougUSMC View Post
Wow, that sounds miserable, but really clean work!
If you mean the framing, thanks. If you mean the foam...don't let the post clean-up pics fool you. It's always a wide-awake nightmare dealing with that stuff. Millions of static-y dust particles clinging to everything for months. I took a few pics while in the middle of the carnage which I'll post over the weekend. In fact that wall went in and out 4 times before I finally had it dug out deep enough behind every stud. Grrrrr...

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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
Nice upgrade. Any idea what the final cabinet dimensions will be? Certainly enjoying your progress and looking forward to more (ahem, frequent) updates!
I posted my original box dimensions HERE. I am going to try and keep the box as skinny as possible at the expense of adding more depth. With the purchase of those new LCRs I am literally running out of space to get everything in the baffle wall while keeping the left and right speakers at the inner edge of the screen frame. I know what you're thinking....I need a bigger screen, right???!!
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post #1824 of 1874 Old 01-30-2017, 11:59 AM
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Thats some manual labor right there! Its coming along nicely!

Main theater: Sony 45es, 120 inch 16:9 screen, Panny BDT500, Rotel RMB-1075, Rotel RSP-1068, Klipsch RP-280F, RP-450C, RP-160M, SVS PB13 x 2, Monster Power Conditioner, GIK acoustic panels

TV Room: Panasonic 60" plasma, Integra DTR-30.3, Axiom Audio M60, VP150, QS8, EP500
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post #1825 of 1874 Old 01-31-2017, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Thats some manual labor right there! Its coming along nicely!
The real question is "Are YOU ready for some manual labor?? " I need to give you and a couple other local AVS-ers a potential weekend date to help hang the two layers of 5/8" drywall. Those sheets are just monsters to handle alone. Despite the monumental effort to get to the drywall stage, I think (hope) the drywalling process will be straightforward.
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post #1826 of 1874 Old 01-31-2017, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
The real question is "Are YOU ready for some manual labor?? " I need to give you and a couple other local AVS-ers a potential weekend date to help hang the two layers of 5/8" drywall. Those sheets are just monsters to handle alone. Despite the monumental effort to get to the drywall stage, I think (hope) the drywalling process will be straightforward.

Call me crazy, but I have a feeling that this installation will be so textbook that I actually wish I could make it down, if for nothing other than the learning experience! With the new bambino tho, it's probably wisest not to event test out WAF levels on this one...
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post #1827 of 1874 Old 01-31-2017, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
The real question is "Are YOU ready for some manual labor?? " I need to give you and a couple other local AVS-ers a potential weekend date to help hang the two layers of 5/8" drywall. Those sheets are just monsters to handle alone. Despite the monumental effort to get to the drywall stage, I think (hope) the drywalling process will be straightforward.
Yep! I'm ready!
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Main theater: Sony 45es, 120 inch 16:9 screen, Panny BDT500, Rotel RMB-1075, Rotel RSP-1068, Klipsch RP-280F, RP-450C, RP-160M, SVS PB13 x 2, Monster Power Conditioner, GIK acoustic panels

TV Room: Panasonic 60" plasma, Integra DTR-30.3, Axiom Audio M60, VP150, QS8, EP500
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post #1828 of 1874 Old 01-31-2017, 08:57 AM
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Beautiful work, Tim, and what a victory to be (hopefully?) done with this foam for the rest of your life. I hope...
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post #1829 of 1874 Old 02-01-2017, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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TMcG's Garage Sale

Selling on my 3 Procella P610 LCRs. I've never even pulled these out of the box let alone connected them. They were originally lightly used dealer demos and I am the original owner.



You'd get three Procella P10si bass modules, three Procella P6 head units and three mounting brackets which join the two together. If you want a world-class front sound stage, look no further.

I also have two absolutely brand new Procella P10si balancing subwoofers and two free double layer soundproof back boxes to flush into your soundproof shell if you want them.



Next up for sale are two Stereo Integrity HS-24 subwoofer drivers. You guessed it....brand new in the box. They make 18" drivers look like midranges:






And if you need a brand new Sherbourn PA7-350 amplifier, you've come to the right place. 7 x 350 watts per channel BEAST. Under full 10 year factory warrant , the remainder of which can be fully transferred to you. These things were $4500 each new then dropped to $2800 as a direct-to-consumer price before the Sherbourn name was discontinued by their parent company Emotiva.


I need some time to sort things out, but I have a TON of Middle Atlantic stuff to get rid of, especially rack shelves of all types and RU height.

PM me if you are interested in any of this equipment!
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post #1830 of 1874 Old 02-01-2017, 09:54 PM
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Oh my! Thats some really nice equipment you are selling. You sure you don't need these after I help you with the drywalls? lol I'm sure equipment comes after.

Main theater: Sony 45es, 120 inch 16:9 screen, Panny BDT500, Rotel RMB-1075, Rotel RSP-1068, Klipsch RP-280F, RP-450C, RP-160M, SVS PB13 x 2, Monster Power Conditioner, GIK acoustic panels

TV Room: Panasonic 60" plasma, Integra DTR-30.3, Axiom Audio M60, VP150, QS8, EP500
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