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post #181 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If you want all the features of the Integra and superb sound quality, the Denon AVP-A1HDCI ($7,500) was that. That being out of production, their sister's new Marantz AV8801 could be a good bet at just under half ($3,600).

Or the sister-model to the Marantz, the Denon 4520... It probably behaves quite identical with amps off. For the Integra - I know that the corresponding Onkyo model is identical inside, I went through the service manual of both side by side including component lists when I was looking for what to buy (summer 2011).

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #182 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If you want all the features of the Integra and superb sound quality, the Denon AVP-A1HDCI ($7,500) was that. That being out of production, their sister's new Marantz AV8801 could be a good bet at just under half ($3,600).

I completely agree that the Denon was a landmark piece. Even used these things are still fetching $5000 - $6000 from what I have seen which is out of my budget. I should have been more specific with model numbers in my previous post, but on my current shortlist was the Marantz AV8801, the Denon AVR-4520CI, the Integra DHC-80.3 and the Emotiva XMC-1 (when released). I'd love to consider the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, the Theta Casablanca, the Anthem D2v or any of the other truly high-end preamps available but they are just not in the budget since all of that money will most-likely be heading into QSC equipment.
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If you like to define multiple virtual inputs with different speaker setups and channel balances (L/R full range stereo music vs. L/R crossed over for movies), or for lone listening vs room full and such, I still think the SSP-800 is tough to beat in flexibility and ease of use (if you are within reach of the touch screen). Not as easy via the remote and OSD. But once it's set up, no need to mess with it much. OTOH, it is no frills design, in the same vein as the Bryston SP-3, which doesn't even have EQ. Quite a spectrum of choices out there to explore. You can see what I mean about the SSP when you drop by in Feb.

I love the sound of Classe equipment and that SSP-800 is a beast, but not having any surround decoding or streaming capabilities is a killer for me with this piece. I know you can bypass this issue with an external Bluray or other device that can do the processing, but I will be settling into a streaming system for all media content (at full resolution I might add!!) and my preference is for decoding in the preamp vs. through a lower-cost streaming client which could cut the Classe off "at the knees", acoustically speaking. Even a Dune HD Max doesn't have the processing capabilities of the Classe at the level of the Classe and that is really the best quality streaming client I am aware of.
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Be advised, I'm in Bend, central OR. Let me know if/when you're in town.

I may be in Portland. The 3.5 hour drive to Bend may be a little beyond my schedule this time around, but I will let you know if things change via PM.
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I have no experience with IB subs. I cannot see why they would be harder to integrate except they are permanently mounted. For that reason you should plan on using two at minimum. Mid-wall locations, either the two sides or front/rear. One sub, no matter how good, will not work as well as two subs (or four)!

I recall reading Kevin Voeck's (Harman) white paper on the optimal number and placement of subwoofers in a home theater to get the smoothest bass response. If I remember correctly, the optimal number was four with placement at the midpoint of each wall. And like you suggested above, having two subwoofers placed at the midpoints of the front and back walls is recommended. Procella has their own white paper which recommends that you use two subwoofers in a baffle wall, with the left sub located between the left and center speakers and the right sub located between the right and center speakers. A handful of the professional builds I have seen using Procella setups supplement bass at strategic spots in the room with additional subwoofers either from Procella, Triad (low profile) or Velodyne (low profile).

As it stands now I have planned four Fi Car (gulp!) Audio IB-318 subwoofer drivers driven by 4000 to 6000 watts of amplification either from Crown or Behringer.using the same wiring topology found in Crutchfield's wiring schematic below:



As of now (i.e. design stage) one pair will function as a left sub and the other pair will function as a right sub - both of which will be located in a front baffle wall with a sealed IB chamber immediately behind. There is ongoing discussion about the number and location of any potential balancing subwoofers going into my room with the most-likely location being the midpoint of the back wall. Here I will have to use some sort of conventional subwoofer as there is no room for an IB baffle chamber anywhere but on the front wall. I'll keep you and everyone else posted on this as the plans develop. One other point FWIW....the subwoofers are configured in two separate arrays facing the room and not the back-to-back manifold designs you may see here on the forum from time to time.

Thanks again for all of your input!
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post #183 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 07:09 AM
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As far as subs:

Four subs, in all four corners is also recommended in harmans white paper....

If you do an IB on a baffle make sure you build it like fort knox. I only run one sub IB but the amount of vibration it transmits to the framing structure is considerable. If i could find another Marlstrom 21 i would do a manifold opposed to cancel the vibrations.

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post #184 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

As far as subs:
Four subs, in all four corners is also recommended in harmans white paper....
If you do an IB on a baffle make sure you build it like fort knox. I only run one sub IB but the amount of vibration it transmits to the framing structure is considerable. If i could find another Marlstrom 21 i would do a manifold opposed to cancel the vibrations.

FYI - For those of you following this thread and would like to read Harman's white paper that NicksHitachi and I are referring to, the pdf can be found HERE.

My door would get in the way for the left rear of the room and the decorative columns would get in the way at the front the way I have it designed. Due to design constraints I am pretty much set with the two subwoofer arrays as per the Procella white paper although I have always been keen to try four subs at the midpoints to see how good it can sound.

But regarding your point on bracing the structure...in an ideal world what would you recommend? I was going to go with 3/4" plywood (maybe even T&G) as a first layer of sheathing to provide some structure to the baffle chamber followed by 3 layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue in between. All layers would be directly connected to the plywood sheathing with the appropriate length screw. I was then going to structurally bond the back side of the baffle wall to the (real) front wall with a bunch of Unistrut for bracing at 3 feet intervals. The front of the baffle wall would receive one layer of 3/4" MDF and then two layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue between all the layers.

Building two manifolds would force me to build cabinets to house these woofers and increase the depth of the IB chamber by another foot or so to accommodate these manifold boxes. As I am already cramped for proper viewing distances, especially from the front row, every bit of distance to the screen counts.

I pulled up a few YouTube videos of that Maelstrom 21 subwoofer you have....no wonder you were having problems with your projector vibrating!!! All I saw was guys cracking windshields, stuff falling off walls, animals running in fear for their lives and a few PhDs from NASA talking about how these subs have altered Earth's orbital path around the Sun. biggrin.gif I'm thinking you probably have to alert your local law enforcement and SWAT teams before watching any Michael Bay movie. That thing is a monster!

EDIT: Fixed link to Harman White Paper
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post #185 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 08:36 AM
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Can you build them in a dual opposed configuration rather than both subs pointing toward the LP? That is, each IB has one sub facing the wall, and one sub facing the other IB. Looks like the box is deep enough for that, and it would help with localization. Although, as close as these are to your mains, you probably won't have a problem with that anyway.

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post #186 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 08:54 AM
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I normally use at least 1.5" for baffles when building conventional subs. Thats what I have on my IB too. I wouldn't recommend anything less than that reguardless of the framing method.

25% both sides of front wall will work very well also. If you have some major mode problems, later you could also strategically place a(some?) hidden sealed or IB subs in the room to address the problem mode. Realistically though it prob wouldn't be necessary with a bit of EQ. I ran my subs in that config for a while in a rectangular room and had great results.

I'm impressed with the pre-planning you've done. You will likely get to skip many of the mistakes many of us have made building our theaters!!!

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post #187 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 09:00 AM
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You can also mount the subs in the manifold Like this:

IB.bmp 1488k .bmp file

66019


You just have to reverse the polarity of one sub....

I'm sure you have already seen but the "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled" is a great resource for IB stuff....
Attached Images
File Type: bmp IB.bmp (1.45 MB, 927 views)

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post #188 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 09:08 AM
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If the enclosure is deep enough, can you mount the subs so that both magnets are inside the enclosure like a traditional DO sub? From my limited understanding, I can't see a problem, but I'm afraid there are some nuances that I'm not aware of. You know, the questions I don't know enough to ask smile.gif

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post #189 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

FYI - For those of you following this thread and would like to read Harman's white paper that NicksHitachi and I are referring to, the pdf can be found HERE.
The link you posted doesn't work. Hopefully this one will.

The paper is from Todd Welti (not Kevin Voecks) and addresses how to place subs in order to improve seat-to-seat consistency (never mentions improving/smoothening the bass response). One of biggest problems with equalization is that improving the response in one seat can make it worse elsewhere. So it doesn't matter to Welti if the response looks crappy, as long as it is the same crappy in all seats, since it will minimize one of the biggest problems with equalization.

The paper linked above is over 10 years old. Welti released a new paper a couple months ago to expand on his older research by taking into account more variables. His new paper looks at 7 different seating layouts vs 7 subwoofer configurations vs room size. While the paper can be purchased from AES, the slides that accompany the paper are downloadable for free here.

According to the graphs in the slide-pack, for your size room (roughly 16x22) and seating location, 4 subs in 4 corners doesn't yield the kind of seat-to-seat consistency you could get with (in order of improving consistency) 2 subs at the midpoints of the side walls or 4 subs at the midpoints of the 4 walls or 4 subs at the quarter-length points of the side walls.

Sanjay
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post #190 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

You can also mount the subs in the manifold Like this:
IB.bmp 1488k .bmp file
66019
You just have to reverse the polarity of one sub....
I'm sure you have already seen but the "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled" is a great resource for IB stuff....

Linky link please. smile.gif

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post #191 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 10:20 AM
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For the "Cult"? Here

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post #192 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

You can also mount the subs in the manifold Like this:
IB.bmp 1488k .bmp file
66019
You just have to reverse the polarity of one sub....
I'm sure you have already seen but the "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled" is a great resource for IB stuff....

There's one extremely good and powerful subwoofer being made here in Sweden with that style of mounting. The dist spectrum will have different cancellations than front against front.


(Picture of uncommon version at the absolute edge of minimum volume for the close version, best shot of elements I could find)

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #193 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I love the sound of Classe equipment and that SSP-800 is a beast, but not having any surround decoding or streaming capabilities is a killer for me with this piece.
Maybe you are thinking of the CP-800? The SSP-800 has surround decoding, the CP does not. Quite right about streaming, though. Nada.
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I should have been more specific with model numbers in my previous post, but on my current shortlist was the Marantz AV8801, the Denon AVR-4520CI, the Integra DHC-80.3 and the Emotiva XMC-1 (when released).
I read most of the Marantz thread, and it looks like a winner. I'd movie to the top of your list and see if anything can knock it off in the next 6-months (no need to buy it until ready to install). Maybe the XMC-1 will be out by then! rolleyes.gif
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I may be in Portland. The 3.5 hour drive to Bend may be a little beyond my schedule this time around, but I will let you know if things change via PM.
Understood.
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post #194 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Maybe you are thinking of the CP-800? The SSP-800 has surround decoding, the CP does not. Quite right about streaming, though. Nada.

Sorry, I was a victim of multi-tasking when I wrote that...I meant to say 3-D and streaming. But even then I see now that there is an update for this unit with HDMI 1.4 so it still boils down to streaming. Either way, this phenomenal piece is way out of my budget, even second-hand.

If I were to list my other "nice to haves" in a preamp (aside from good sound quality, HDMI 1.4 and streaming capability) it would be integrated AirPlay, HD Radio, IP Control (RS-232 is my control minimum), 4k pass-through (or upscaling) enabled and an integrated USB port (preferably 3.0, but 2.0 minimum).

The Marantz is at the top of my list, pending reviews and release of the final specifications of the Emotiva piece. But like you said, I will not be purchasing anything until I am beyond ready to make connections. I've learned the "early purchase" lesson the hard way like many others here on the Forum.


Along those lines, one thing I failed to mention before is that I am VERY hesitant to make a significant investment in three pieces of equipment - the Preamp/processor, the projector and the Bluray player - because the pace at which newer technologies for these product categories are moving it will be some time before a technological "plateau" is reached. So these are the parts of my system that I predict I will "turn and burn" as the needs arise. All others - The speakers, screen (and material), the NAS, power amplifiers, QSC DSP (upgradeable), etc. are all items I don't mind making more of a long-term investment. as the technologies are well-established and relatively unchanging as far as I can predict.
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post #195 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 12:22 PM
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Along those lines, one thing I failed to mention before is that I am VERY hesitant to make a significant investment in three pieces of equipment - the Preamp/processor, the projector and the Bluray player - because the pace at which newer technologies for these product categories are moving it will be some time before a technological "plateau" is reached. So these are the parts of my system that I predict I will "turn and burn" as the needs arise. All others - The speakers, screen (and material), the NAS, power amplifiers, QSC DSP (upgradeable), etc. are all items I don't mind making more of a long-term investment. as the technologies are well-established and relatively unchanging as far as I can predict.

I with you on that. I have no issue spending money on good amps or speakers because they tend to keep their value well. I try to stay behind the curve on processors a bit because they drop in price so quickly. 2 year old $10k projectors are often surpassed by todays $3k projectors.

I'm subscribed to your build and will be following your progress.
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post #196 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I normally use at least 1.5" for baffles when building conventional subs. Thats what I have on my IB too. I wouldn't recommend anything less than that reguardless of the framing method.
25% both sides of front wall will work very well also. If you have some major mode problems, later you could also strategically place a(some?) hidden sealed or IB subs in the room to address the problem mode. Realistically though it prob wouldn't be necessary with a bit of EQ. I ran my subs in that config for a while in a rectangular room and had great results.
I'm impressed with the pre-planning you've done. You will likely get to skip many of the mistakes many of us have made building our theaters!!!

Thanks Nick. I hesitate to say this is only scratching the surface of a lot of the planning I have done for this theater. I just hope the execution goes along without any problems because of the planning and working out problems while they are still on paper (or in the ether here on this Forum biggrin.gif).

And thank you as well for the driver manifold sketch. I understand what you mean, but turning the woofers in any direction but facing straight out (toward the room) or straight in means that I will have to build a supporting manifold "box" (cabinet). Given the width of these woofers, the amount of "meat" in wood you have to put around these woofers for secure mounting, and having the drivers deeply imbedded in the chamber to get past the baffle wall framing (since they are side firing at this point) not to mention the 1.5" minimum thickness of the box....all of this adds up to almost 30 inches in depth I would have to give up where as I sit just over 18" right now according to my CAD from Dennis. So that's the extra foot of viewing throw distance I was talking about that I would lose.

If the only reason to do a manifold is to limit potential vibration, then I will do the array and glue, screw and brace the living crap out of the baffle wall and chamber. That's the reality of my short theater depth with two rows of seating and the gargantuan screen I lucked out in finding. If I had a 120" width screen I would have a bit more breathing distance on viewing angles, but this 140" width really puts the squeeze on my room dimensions. I just couldn't pass up the steal of a deal I got for a curved and motorized CIH screen frame, but that's another story.

Regarding the positioning of these woofers...Dennis has them more shaded toward (i.e. under, but not centered) the left and right speakers and not centered between the center channel and their respective main L/R channel. I may very well end up with just the four woofers at the front of the room and nothing further, but that's still being worked out at this point.
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post #197 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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The link you posted doesn't work. Hopefully this one will.
The paper is from Todd Welti (not Kevin Voecks) and addresses how to place subs in order to improve seat-to-seat consistency (never mentions improving/smoothening the bass response). One of biggest problems with equalization is that improving the response in one seat can make it worse elsewhere. So it doesn't matter to Welti if the response looks crappy, as long as it is the same crappy in all seats, since it will minimize one of the biggest problems with equalization.
The paper linked above is over 10 years old. Welti released a new paper a couple months ago to expand on his older research by taking into account more variables. His new paper looks at 7 different seating layouts vs 7 subwoofer configurations vs room size. While the paper can be purchased from AES, the slides that accompany the paper are downloadable for free here.
According to the graphs in the slide-pack, for your size room (roughly 16x22) and seating location, 4 subs in 4 corners doesn't yield the kind of seat-to-seat consistency you could get with (in order of improving consistency) 2 subs at the midpoints of the side walls or 4 subs at the midpoints of the 4 walls or 4 subs at the quarter-length points of the side walls.

Thanks for your input and clarification Sanjay. I hadn't looked at that paper in a very long time. Thanks as well for the link to the updated paper - I can't wait to read it later tonight.

Regarding positioning....I am a bit (i.e. 100%) limited on where I can place my subwoofers in this room. Between structural supports, foundation concrete and other mechanical systems there is literally not a single spot in the entire room except for the front wall where I can locate my subwoofers unless I was to artificially narrow the room to "build in" the subs or have them sitting out in the open - neither of which are options I prefer. It is my sincere hope that getting the placement right in the baffle wall with the QSC DSP will give me the clean, smooth bass response I seek for the entire room and not just certain seats within the room. This is the primary reason I hired Dennis and his team, because you just can't beat an experienced professional with all the advanced resources available to acoustically dial in the room. The room has the greatest impact on final sound quality, so getting things right now should make calibration easier down the road. So far there has been no red flags in the front wall IB setup from Dennis' perspective.

But to your point, if my room wasn't landlocked I would definitely explore all subwoofer placement options. As it stands now, I am basically making my own pair of DIY Procella P18 subwoofers which has dual 18" drivers. Dennis has used two of these subs for rooms far larger than mine with award-winning results. Hopefully I can mimic most of their performance with my IB setup. If the P18s weren't $10,000 each, I would consider them but I don't have that kind of scratch, especially with our first child coming in April.
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post #198 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 View Post

I with you on that. I have no issue spending money on good amps or speakers because they tend to keep their value well. I try to stay behind the curve on processors a bit because they drop in price so quickly. 2 year old $10k projectors are often surpassed by todays $3k projectors.
I'm subscribed to your build and will be following your progress.

Thanks for subscribing SM2K! I may have said this at some point but yours and Moggies builds were my own personal inspirations for going with IB subwoofers and a FOSI star ceiling. You also introduced me to 3-Form and their synthetic panels which I greatly appreciated. I am a bit sidelined at the moment with an injured foot (above posts), but look forward to having you chime in throughout the build with your experience and opinion.
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post #199 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 03:14 PM
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I am going to try my hardest to make sure the only thing you have to help with is making the popcorn! We'll see....I think we all know how we all underestimate how long a project will take.
Last year before Thanksgiving my 88 year young mother grabbed for a leash of an 80lb dog was drug to the ground and shattered her elbow. I took off 3 weeks for her surgery and part of her therapy. I stayed an additional week till I know she was on her way. She called me her drill Sergeant. Any way the therapy started week two twice a week. They started with simple movement of her fingers and wrist and the exercises got progressively harder through time. They gave her home work to be done 3 times a day. Since I was preparing the meals she did her home work in the dining room and joked I was making her work for her food. Bottom Line the therapist said she made the quickest recover of any patient she has ever had regardless of age. I did the same with my torn rotator cup several years ago. I know you say the braces do a good job but trust me you will be sidelined for a while. Just do the home work and do not over work it. Soak in some warm Epson salts before you start or get the microwave hot pads from Wal-Mart. Take it easy.
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post #200 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Between structural supports, foundation concrete and other mechanical systems there is literally not a single spot in the entire room except for the front wall where I can locate my subwoofers unless I was to artificially narrow the room to "build in" the subs or have them sitting out in the open - neither of which are options I prefer.
Understood. If the front wall is the only location for your subs, then check with your home theatre designer to see whether there is any benefit to placing them at the quarter-width points of your room. I've seen it help bass response in other rooms, so something you might want to consider.

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post #201 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 07:22 PM
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Two subwoofers at the same SPL and phase will behave as if there were one subwoofer half-way between the two.

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post #202 of 948 Old 01-03-2013, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Two subwoofers at the same SPL and phase will behave as if there were one subwoofer half-way between the two.
The data in Welti's presentation, linked earlier, does not support that. Look at slide 54, "Investigation 4: Practical Subwoofer Locations." Shouldn't cases 3 and 4 perform the same? And 6 and 7?

Lemay's "Virtual Subwoofer" paper discusses the concept, but says more study and data is needed. Perhaps the difference is that Lemay only looked at the responses at one seat, whereas Welti is looking at several.
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post #203 of 948 Old 01-04-2013, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Two subwoofers at the same SPL and phase will behave as if there were one subwoofer half-way between the two.

Anechoic that might be a reasonable statement, but bringing boundaries into the equation I can't see how it would. Assuming they are both along the front wall, the reflex on the side wall will arrive sooner from the two subs placed closer to it than it would from the center placed on. It will give a different interference pattern for sure.

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post #204 of 948 Old 01-04-2013, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Two subwoofers at the same SPL and phase will behave as if there were one subwoofer half-way between the two.
The data in Welti's presentation, linked earlier, does not support that. Look at slide 54, "Investigation 4: Practical Subwoofer Locations." Shouldn't cases 3 and 4 perform the same? And 6 and 7?

Lemay's "Virtual Subwoofer" paper discusses the concept, but says more study and data is needed. Perhaps the difference is that Lemay only looked at the responses at one seat, whereas Welti is looking at several.

They would behave the same as far as modal issues go. Cases 3 and 4 would eliminate the 1st and 3rd width modes and 6 and 7 would eliminate 1st and 3rd width and length modes. However there would be a difference in SPL levels as the ones that are corner loaded would have more overall output.

Fun question. If you could place 1 sub at 1/4 width and 1/4 length and the other sub at 3/4 width and 3/4 length which modes would be eliminated? This is not pacifical for most, except for maybe in ceiling subs.
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post #205 of 948 Old 01-04-2013, 09:19 AM
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In a small room, you're not going to eliminate modes with multiple subs. You are providing yourself the tools to do so.
Lemay measured all seats; but, granted, with only two subs, not four.

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post #206 of 948 Old 01-04-2013, 10:33 AM
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but, granted, with only two subs, not four.

And why stop at four? My livingroom stereo uses eight and a friend of mine just finished his with 24 long throw 12" ( 12 points of radiation ).

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post #207 of 948 Old 01-04-2013, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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And why stop at four? My livingroom stereo uses eight and a friend of mine just finished his with 24 long throw 12" ( 12 points of radiation ).

Ever hear of the "Law of diminishing returns"? biggrin.gif Or even the "Law of the diminishing bank account"!!!
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post #208 of 948 Old 01-04-2013, 10:52 AM
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And why stop at four?
No one says you have to, especially if you want more output. Research papers that mention some maximum number of subs are pointing out when the effect they're researching starts to reach diminishing returns.

In Welti's case, the effect he's investigating is seat-to-seat consistency. You can use as many subs as you want, but he points out that there will be no significant improvement in consistency when you go beyond 4 subs. Maybe he should talk in terms of 2 or 4 subwoofer locations rather than subwoofers, just to make his point clearer. Same with Geddes: after about 3 subs, maybe 4 subs, he says that you're reaching the point of diminishing returns (frequency response won't get significantly better, which is the effect he's investigating).

So no one says to stop at 4 subs, just understand what it buys you (output) and what you're not improving significantly (consistency or response).

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post #209 of 948 Old 01-04-2013, 11:17 AM
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Ever hear of the "Law of diminishing returns"? biggrin.gif Or even the "Law of the diminishing bank account"!!!

I do believe this directly contradicts Point 2 in your signature. wink.gif

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post #210 of 948 Old 01-04-2013, 11:27 AM
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I do believe this directly contradicts Point 2 in your signature. wink.gif

LOL! biggrin.gif

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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