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post #91 of 145 Old 04-09-2013, 09:42 AM
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I have an Erskine Signature plan, and am now in the process of integrating that into the working drawings for a major remodel. I am finding that the designers and mechanical and electrical consulting engineers are having difficulty understanding what is needed, even after they have had phone conversations with Dennis. This points out that, unless you want to DIY or spend the money to have Erskine turnkey the room, you will need to be intimately and continuously involved in both the design and the constructions processes to ensure that they get it right.
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post #92 of 145 Old 04-09-2013, 05:16 PM
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You will find out that budget equipment in a properly designed room will surpass exotic equipment in an untreated room.

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post #93 of 145 Old 04-14-2013, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LeBon View Post

I have an Erskine Signature plan, and am now in the process of integrating that into the working drawings for a major remodel. I am finding that the designers and mechanical and electrical consulting engineers are having difficulty understanding what is needed, even after they have had phone conversations with Dennis. This points out that, unless you want to DIY or spend the money to have Erskine turnkey the room, you will need to be intimately and continuously involved in both the design and the constructions processes to ensure that they get it right.

That's a good point for anyone considering the higher end plans. The plans aren't blueprints. A lot of what is offered in the Signature plan vs the lower tier plans is just additional technical requirements for the room. The design work to meet those technical requirements is redirected back to the client. The expectation is the client will find and hire competent designers in their respective fields for the specifics.

Here is an old post from Dennis that sums things up. The example focuses on HVAC, but the methodology is fairly consistent throughout the Signature Design.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

I doubt the mufflers will help. The issue is the "high velocity" which creates turbulence which creates noise. About all you can do is decrease the velocity by using larger ducts and larger diffusors OR more (meaning lots more) small ones.

Now to my soap box ....

I have a potential client that is very focused on specifying duct size, diffusor size, etc. Here's how it works when you're dealing with other trades (such as HVAC contractors). If your objective is to have a duct of size "x", then specify "x" if that's what is important to you. I'd suggest, that duct size is of no importance to you in an acoustic application. What is important is noise levels, etc. So if the noise level of the air leaving a diffusor is important to you then specify (as an example), the Noise Rating (or Noise Criteria) shall be not more than 21 when measured .5 meter from any diffusor.

Another example ... are you concerned that the HVAC will provide 18,000 BTU's of cooling. I'd suggest that's not what you're really interested in. Here's a better way: "The system shall maintain 70 degrees with an outside temperature range from -30 degrees to 110 degrees, humidity shall not be less than 25% nor greater than 35%...."

Let me explain one (not all) of the reasons for this. If you tell your HVAC contractor that he must meet a given temperature, humidity and NR, then if you don't get that, it is his problem to fix, at his expense, at his potential loss of license. On the other hand, if you tell him you want 10" dia. ducts, and he gives you 10" dia ducts but the air noise is outrageous and the room will get no cooler than 85, it's your problem, not his.

Think about it.

 

 

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post #94 of 145 Old 04-15-2013, 08:01 AM
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Dennis' advice is correct, until you realize that its almost impossible to find a contractor willing to sign themselves up to be on the hook for those goals (well, maybe once you are in the $100K project range the situation is different).

As an example, I find that the HVAC in my bungalow house is not very well balanced between main floor and basement - specifically the basement in the summer is like a meat locker (16C) when the upstairs is at the proper setting (23C).

I have talked to a dozen contractors to ask them to quote me what it would cost to simply correct this so the two floors are roughly the same (less than 2 degrees difference). I can't find *anyone* willing to generate that kind of results-oriented quote. They will all say don't worry about it, it'll work well - but faced with hard design requirements they all walk away.

Now, making sure your AC isn't freezing cold in 50% of your home - that is a pretty universal design goal! I would suggest that the pool of residential (as opposed to commercial) HVAC contractors that have *any*idea what a Noise Rating of 21 from the supplies is, or how to measure that, or even have the tools to do so, is dramatically smaller still....
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post #95 of 145 Old 04-15-2013, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Dennis' advice is correct, until you realize that its almost impossible to find a contractor willing to sign themselves up to be on the hook for those goals (well, maybe once you are in the $100K project range the situation is different).

As an example, I find that the HVAC in my bungalow house is not very well balanced between main floor and basement - specifically the basement in the summer is like a meat locker (16C) when the upstairs is at the proper setting (23C).

I have talked to a dozen contractors to ask them to quote me what it would cost to simply correct this so the two floors are roughly the same (less than 2 degrees difference). I can't find *anyone* willing to generate that kind of results-oriented quote. They will all say don't worry about it, it'll work well - but faced with hard design requirements they all walk away.

Now, making sure your AC isn't freezing cold in 50% of your home - that is a pretty universal design goal! I would suggest that the pool of residential (as opposed to commercial) HVAC contractors that have *any*idea what a Noise Rating of 21 from the supplies is, or how to measure that, or even have the tools to do so, is dramatically smaller still....

I'm going to have a major uphill battle convincing my HVAC installer that a zone system isn't a mistake, forget having them commit to NC/NR 21.
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post #96 of 145 Old 04-15-2013, 10:53 AM
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I'm going to have a major uphill battle convincing my HVAC installer that a zone system isn't a mistake, forget having them commit to NC/NR 21.

Is a mistake, or is not a mistake?

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post #97 of 145 Old 04-15-2013, 11:11 AM
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Is a mistake, or is not a mistake?

They will think, based on what I've heard from others building a house and what we've been told when trying to get one here at work, that putting in a zone system in will create more problems than it addresses. That the dampers will constantly fail and there will be all kinds of problems.
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post #98 of 145 Old 04-15-2013, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post

They will think, based on what I've heard from others building a house and what we've been told when trying to get one here at work, that putting in a zone system in will create more problems than it addresses. That the dampers will constantly fail and there will be all kinds of problems.
Might be time to look for a different HVAC contractor...
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post #99 of 145 Old 04-15-2013, 01:54 PM
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Might be time to look for a different HVAC contractor...

Welcome to rural America. Problem is they are far and away the best In the area. My other option is to get someone from 90 minutes or further away, which will be a service nightmare.


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post #100 of 145 Old 04-16-2013, 05:30 AM
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They will think, based on what I've heard from others building a house and what we've been told when trying to get one here at work, that putting in a zone system in will create more problems than it addresses. That the dampers will constantly fail and there will be all kinds of problems.

Translation: "We don't know how to do a zoned system, we have never done a zoned system, and we use cheap (not inexpensive) parts in our installations. Have a nice day."

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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post #101 of 145 Old 04-16-2013, 05:43 AM
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It took me four contractors before I found one that knew how to put in a separate zone system. The first two didn't even bid on the job, the third wanted four times more than what I paid the HVAC company that did the job. Be patient and be persistent, it'll work its way out.

Bud
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post #102 of 145 Old 04-16-2013, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Translation: "We don't know how to do a zoned system, we have never done a zoned system, and we use cheap (not inexpensive) parts in our installations. Have a nice day."

Yea, pretty much. A friend of mine had a zoned system put in here about 25 years ago, but he had to force the issue. Now, 25 years later, the local HVAC companies still resist them.
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post #103 of 145 Old 04-16-2013, 11:01 AM
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Wow. I couldn't convince our HVAC contractor NOT to use a zoned system. The jury is still out as to whether or not ill like it though

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #104 of 145 Old 04-16-2013, 11:35 AM
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Wow. I couldn't convince our HVAC contractor NOT to use a zoned system. The jury is still out as to whether or not ill like it though

Yea, well your LA is clearly more sophisticated than my LA (lower Arkansas -- ok, actually I'm in NA.)
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post #105 of 145 Old 07-06-2013, 03:09 PM
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Thank you all for your thoughts on EG services. I've decided to take the leap. Dennis asked for a budget target up front. Whether I stick to it or not depends:rolleyes:
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post #106 of 145 Old 07-31-2013, 09:41 AM
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I have a media room (with all the pre-wiring done for projector, speaker etc) in my new house and I'd like to know the "ballpark" for getting the design plan built by a Erskine contractor - I mean is it 5K, 10K, 20K or 100K?

Just want to know if it's worth a call to Erkine group or not (once I know the ballpark). I'm a DIY'er to some extent but I can't build risers, walls or put up sheetrock etc.
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post #107 of 145 Old 07-31-2013, 09:56 AM
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A lot hinges on the size of the room, the equipment you select and the interior aesthetics and performance. His crews are top-notch professionals who are well-versed in all of the non-standard details required to build a high-performance residential home theater.

I'd give them a call to discuss the particulars of the project you have in mind. Their number is 970-557-4440 and ask to speak with Shawn Byrne.
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post #108 of 145 Old 07-31-2013, 10:10 AM
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I'd agree on giving them a call. I had a lot of similar questions about my basement theater plans, and quickly got to a point of realizing that "it depends" was coming up a lot. smile.gif Had a few folks recommend working with Dennis and company, and so far it's been very helpful. There's a lot of back and forth (as my design interacts with some excavation plans, which keep changing as I try to finalize reasonable pricing and scope), and they've been very flexible and available to help answer questions.

To your specific question, I think "it depends" again... I'm aiming for a build of about $40-50k after excavation work is done, and have communicated that to Dennis. So far it seems as though we're in that ballpark, but it's early days and I also have to keep reminding myself to keep an eye on scope creep on the project. Dennis has also been helpful here, especially as I explore options for larger screens (which then hits a variety of interconnected issues to consider around price, throw, angles, excavation depth, etc.)
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post #109 of 145 Old 07-31-2013, 10:56 AM
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I'd give them a call. My plan is to get the Media Room ready from a build perspective i.e. paint, carpet, acoustic panels and other stuff etc and then do the phase 2 (buying equipment and installation). I know what I want from the equipment side so I know the budget but I'm totally clueless as to how much the "build" costs.
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post #110 of 145 Old 07-31-2013, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBon View Post

I have an Erskine Signature plan, and am now in the process of integrating that into the working drawings for a major remodel. I am finding that the designers and mechanical and electrical consulting engineers are having difficulty understanding what is needed, even after they have had phone conversations with Dennis. This points out that, unless you want to DIY or spend the money to have Erskine turnkey the room, you will need to be intimately and continuously involved in both the design and the constructions processes to ensure that they get it right.

This statement is so true!

I allowed the subs to block my theater for channels and they screwed the pooch! Took three weeks to tear out and re-do blocking and framing...........put me three weeks behind schedule which was stressful due to home being part of a "Tour of Homes" show. At that point, I told the GC to leave the room alone and I'd do the rest.

Happy with soundproofing results, but I have one small issue..........the GC had the sub put in the bottom threshold of my Zero seals and he cut the neoprene bottom stop too short.............now I have to order the neo stop and re-do it myself.
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post #111 of 145 Old 07-31-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Wow. I couldn't convince our HVAC contractor NOT to use a zoned system. The jury is still out as to whether or not ill like it though

Take the leap of faith! Granted, having a dual HVAC system were one is dedicated to the theater is ideal.........but going to a zoned HVAC system is not the end of the world. I have 4 zones, one dedicated to the theater.........with careful planning and using dead vent concepts, you'll be happy in the end.

I was really worried about having my dual hot water tanks, hot water recirc system, furnace, air condition units all surrounding the perimeter of my theater..........but taking the extra precautions has eliminated by worries. My room is absolutely dead silent when the doors are shut..............it's eerily quiet I might add. smile.gif
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post #112 of 145 Old 07-31-2013, 02:05 PM
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Take the leap of faith! Granted, having a dual HVAC system were one is dedicated to the theater is ideal.........but going to a zoned HVAC system is not the end of the world. I have 4 zones, one dedicated to the theater.........with careful planning and using dead vent concepts, you'll be happy in the end.

I was really worried about having my dual hot water tanks, hot water recirc system, furnace, air condition units all surrounding the perimeter of my theater..........but taking the extra precautions has eliminated by worries. My room is absolutely dead silent when the doors are shut..............it's eerily quiet I might add. smile.gif

We've been in the house a year now, and if I had it to do over again, I'd probably go with separate units. I like a zoned system for the theater, but for our particular house design I'm not sure it's ideal. With our open floor plan, our 5 ton unit struggles to keep up when it's extremely hot outside. This is only a problem when using the programmable thermostats. The directions would have you believe that you should set the things 6 degrees or so higher when you're away, and let the unit cool things back off before you get home. If it's in the mid 90's or so outside, our unit has trouble recovering. Not only that, but it also drives our cooling bill UP.

I think the systems have a lot of potential to work well, but I'm not sure there's enough data for all the various home geometries. For a home with very distinct areas that are blocked off from one another, it makes sense. But as homes move more to open floor plans, it becomes more difficult to get it to work. Just my 0.02.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #113 of 145 Old 07-31-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

We've been in the house a year now, and if I had it to do over again, I'd probably go with separate units. I like a zoned system for the theater, but for our particular house design I'm not sure it's ideal. With our open floor plan, our 5 ton unit struggles to keep up when it's extremely hot outside. This is only a problem when using the programmable thermostats. The directions would have you believe that you should set the things 6 degrees or so higher when you're away, and let the unit cool things back off before you get home. If it's in the mid 90's or so outside, our unit has trouble recovering. Not only that, but it also drives our cooling bill UP.

I think the systems have a lot of potential to work well, but I'm not sure there's enough data for all the various home geometries. For a home with very distinct areas that are blocked off from one another, it makes sense. But as homes move more to open floor plans, it becomes more difficult to get it to work. Just my 0.02.

Never thought about the struggles of cooling in the South.................with high humidity any system would be taxed if not spec-ed correctly. Since I'm from the Pacific Northwest.......cooling is not really an issue. The daily routine.......early morning open windows........close at 11 AM.......air conditioning kicks on around 3 PM until 10 PM......and that is on a very hot day ie. in the 90's!

Our house plan is very much open, granted I've only been living in our home since last Sunday..................yet our air conditioner has only kicked on a few times in the last week and that was due to cooling only one zone in the house. Must be those beautiful 80 degree days in Oregon! wink.gif

Zoning made sense for our home............we ended up with 4 zones in a 3000 sq ft one level home................and due to Bonneville Dam along with other hydroelectric power stations being close by........electricity is CHEAP- thanks to Californians subsidizing our electric power pricing! biggrin.gif

We'll soon see how the electric bill goes..............I don't expect much due to how the house was insulated.
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post #114 of 145 Old 07-31-2013, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post

I have a media room (with all the pre-wiring done for projector, speaker etc) in my new house and I'd like to know the "ballpark" for getting the design plan built by a Erskine contractor - I mean is it 5K, 10K, 20K or 100K?

It's something to consider after you've completed your exotic car collection.

 

 

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post #115 of 145 Old 08-01-2013, 07:15 AM
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It's something to consider after you've completed your exotic car collection.

Is that a sarcastic comment or do you mean not everybody can afford custom made home theaters even if it costs 5K?
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post #116 of 145 Old 08-01-2013, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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It's really expensive to have them build it.

 

 

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post #117 of 145 Old 08-02-2013, 06:45 AM
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It's really expensive to have them build it.

I understand, hence the question of ballpark to make a decision.
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post #118 of 145 Old 06-28-2014, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I am seeing a lot of coffered ceilings lately from DE, so I wanted to get some feedback from members that have done it. I was a little concerned with the weight and if the trusses above would be able to hold it on top of DD & GG. I assumed the clips were good, but then I read this exchange over in Dave's kinetic-river-cinema build.

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Quote: Originally Posted by BllDo

So what does all that weight do to the clips and channel on the ceiling? Is there any potential for sag at some point and does it affect the acoustic properties of the clips?


Turns out you were on to something. After talking to Ted this morning I have decided to take down the OSB I have on the ceiling. It actually came down in about a half hour. What I need to do is decrease my clip spacing from 48" to 32". It was this option or I could have decreased the channel spacing from 24" to 16". I chose the former. It sucks as i thought that the ceiling would be fine to handle the distributed weight of the coffers.

So the channel and clip configuration is designed to support around 4.5lbs per sq/ft. The weight of OSB, GG, and 5/8 drywall is right at that limit if not a bit over. I just didnt want to take the chance of the ceiling sagging in the future, plus I will sleep better and wont stare at the ceiling everytime I look up.

Additional clips and GG should be here on Monday/Tuesday and then I will knock out both layers and get this portion of my build done.
My clip spacing was spec'd for 48". Channels were 24" apart. According to Ted that is just enough for the clips to hold the GG & DD, but not enough for additional weight for a coffered ceiling. Dave ended up taking his ceiling down, and Ted approved. Wondering if I need to do the same?

Also, FWIW on the framing plans, even though the plans do not show blocking in the stud walls, it is needed. This is one area where "follow the plans exactly" needs to be ignored. Dennis said not having the blocking compromised the soundproofing and rendered the room unsuitable for playback. He later said that attaching the soffits, wainscotting, columns, etc to the wall would help stiffen them and I should be ok.

I had considered taking everything down to fix the framing. Their prices for millwork on the columns, wainscotting, and chair rail made the price to build the room very high. I would rather not have to add all that stuff to the walls to stiffen it & make it work. If my wall framing was ok, I could skip the woodwork and do a fabric based room which would be much cheaper to build. It seemed like a waste though, after spending $30k to drywall the room. But if the ceiling clips can't hold the coffered ceiling that the plans call for, then that would be more reason to just tear it all out and start restart from scratch.

Has anyone else done an EG plan with clip spacing presumably the same as mine then added GG + DD + coffered ceiling without any issues? Is Ted wrong or are my plans wrong?

 

 

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post #119 of 145 Old 06-28-2014, 06:41 PM
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One vendor publishes this data on whisper clips:

  • Recommended Load: 36 Lbs.
  • Max Safe Load: 46 Lbs.
  • Fail Load: 300 Lbs.


You should be able to calculate the number of clips used on your ceiling based on the 48 inch spacing guideline. You have 12 rows of channel from my picture attached

two layers of 5/8 drywall weighs 4.375 lbs per square ft multiply by the room size and divide by the clips used to see where you are. Add in a small allowance for the channels, green glue (two buckets) , and screws (5 lbs) .


Lets assume that you you are within reason next you need to calculate the material weight to build your coffered ceiling. From the dimensions calculate the materials list and then do a Google search for the weights of the materials
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Last edited by BIGmouthinDC; 06-28-2014 at 06:46 PM.
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post #120 of 145 Old 06-28-2014, 07:21 PM
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I've researched this way more than I would like to admit, and I suspect there is a divergence between the ratings and what will actually work. That said, I built my ceiling with a coffered ceiling in mind. I used the 24"x48" spacing and added extra clips where I planned for the soffits and coffers to go.

After my drywall was hung, I put in a call to Ted to make sure I had everything in order, and I got some bad news. It turns out that the SIM intends for you to put dedicated channels up for anything extra you are hanging from the ceiling. The structure is not limited by the clips, it's limited by the channel. Based on the L/240 deflection tables for 25 ga channel, a 24"x48" clip and channel spacing is rated for around 6 pst. DD+GG is around 4.4 pst depending on where you look. So yeah, a 24"x48" spacing is pretty close to the limit for DD+GG. Ted told me they want an extra channel for the soffits, extra channel for the PJ/hushbox, extra channel for coffers, etc.

Now, there is going to be some difference in deflection of a coffered ceiling because you are going to be adding a linear load rather than a point source, so the loading is calculated differently than just adding up the weight and dividing by the area it covers. The structure of the coffered ceiling will also provide from stiffening of the drywall/channel, so that may actually reduce the deflection. Unfortunately, I have no idea by how much. Did Dennis spec the clip+channel pattern as well as the coffered ceiling layout? He may have had a structural engineer approve it. I really have no idea.
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