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post #121 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
I am seeing a lot of coffered ceilings lately from DE, so I wanted to get some feedback from members that have done it. I was a little concerned with the weight and if the trusses above would be able to hold it on top of DD & GG. I assumed the clips were good, but then I read this exchange over in Dave's kinetic-river-cinema build.



My clip spacing was spec'd for 48". Channels were 24" apart. According to Ted that is just enough for the clips to hold the GG & DD, but not enough for additional weight for a coffered ceiling. Dave ended up taking his ceiling down, and Ted approved. Wondering if I need to do the same?

Also, FWIW on the framing plans, even though the plans do not show blocking in the stud walls, it is needed. This is one area where "follow the plans exactly" needs to be ignored. Dennis said not having the blocking compromised the soundproofing and rendered the room unsuitable for playback. He later said that attaching the soffits, wainscotting, columns, etc to the wall would help stiffen them and I should be ok.

I had considered taking everything down to fix the framing. Their prices for millwork on the columns, wainscotting, and chair rail made the price to build the room very high. I would rather not have to add all that stuff to the walls to stiffen it & make it work. If my wall framing was ok, I could skip the woodwork and do a fabric based room which would be much cheaper to build. It seemed like a waste though, after spending $30k to drywall the room. But if the ceiling clips can't hold the coffered ceiling that the plans call for, then that would be more reason to just tear it all out and start restart from scratch.

Has anyone else done an EG plan with clip spacing presumably the same as mine then added GG + DD + coffered ceiling without any issues? Is Ted wrong or are my plans wrong?
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I've researched this way more than I would like to admit, and I suspect there is a divergence between the ratings and what will actually work. That said, I built my ceiling with a coffered ceiling in mind. I used the 24"x48" spacing and added extra clips where I planned for the soffits and coffers to go.

After my drywall was hung, I put in a call to Ted to make sure I had everything in order, and I got some bad news. It turns out that the SIM intends for you to put dedicated channels up for anything extra you are hanging from the ceiling. The structure is not limited by the clips, it's limited by the channel. Based on the L/240 deflection tables for 25 ga channel, a 24"x48" clip and channel spacing is rated for around 6 pst. DD+GG is around 4.4 pst depending on where you look. So yeah, a 24"x48" spacing is pretty close to the limit for DD+GG. Ted told me they want an extra channel for the soffits, extra channel for the PJ/hushbox, extra channel for coffers, etc.

Now, there is going to be some difference in deflection of a coffered ceiling because you are going to be adding a linear load rather than a point source, so the loading is calculated differently than just adding up the weight and dividing by the area it covers. The structure of the coffered ceiling will also provide from stiffening of the drywall/channel, so that may actually reduce the deflection. Unfortunately, I have no idea by how much. Did Dennis spec the clip+channel pattern as well as the coffered ceiling layout? He may have had a structural engineer approve it. I really have no idea.

After reading this, I'm lucky I went against design for 24" OC in ceiling and went to 16OC. I read all specs and decided to go that route.......phew!

With relief, I can do whatever on want on ceiling with coffers.........of course with in reason!
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post #122 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
After reading this, I'm lucky I went against design for 24" OC in ceiling and went to 16OC. I read all specs and decided to go that route.......phew!

With relief, I can do whatever on want on ceiling with coffers.........of course with in reason!
Yeah, yeah! Rub it in why don't you

I feel like this was a point that could have used a little more clarification from Ted and John. They do an amazing job as it is explaining their products, but there was a communication breakdown somewhere when explaining how to design ceilings to support extra weight. I thought I was following the directions to a T, but it turns out that's not the case. To Ted's credit, he spent a LOT of time on the phone with me reassuring me that it would work (within the bounds of their liability clauses), even though not ideal.
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post #123 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Yeah, yeah! Rub it in why don't you

I feel like this was a point that could have used a little more clarification from Ted and John. They do an amazing job as it is explaining their products, but there was a communication breakdown somewhere when explaining how to design ceilings to support extra weight. I thought I was following the directions to a T, but it turns out that's not the case. To Ted's credit, he spent a LOT of time on the phone with me reassuring me that it would work (within the bounds of their liability clauses), even though not ideal.
I was just lucky........

After reading load capabilities of clip and channels..........and due to 16 OC recommendation for 3 layers, I felt it was prudent to figure coffers as third layer. Was recommended 24 OC and just add a few clips but I didn't feel good about that.........

Not trying to gloat........just noting sometimes experts are human too.
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post #124 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 06:38 PM
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I knew you weren't really rubbing it in. I was just giving you grief

I've added the 16" channel spacing to my list of things I'd do differently. When I started my build I thought I knew a lot about building a home theater. I've since learned a ton more. Nothing like experience

Fortunately this forum has lots of people that are willing to share their experiences with others. This is an amazing hobby in that regard. Now if only not was cheaper

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post #125 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 09:56 PM
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Last ceiling I did was 16OC and a first layer of OSB so that I could screw up the structure for the four tiered levels.



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post #126 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 10:08 PM
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Last ceiling I did was 16OC and a first layer of OSB so that I could screw up the structure for the four tiered levels.



Nice screw up.,....
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post #127 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 10:11 PM
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I knew you weren't really rubbing it in. I was just giving you grief

I've added the 16" channel spacing to my list of things I'd do differently. When I started my build I thought I knew a lot about building a home theater. I've since learned a ton more. Nothing like experience

Fortunately this forum has lots of people that are willing to share their experiences with others. This is an amazing hobby in that regard. Now if only not was cheaper
Grief is when you want to put up trim boards and wife forces you to go pick cherries..........



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post #128 of 145 Old 06-30-2014, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Did Dennis spec the clip+channel pattern as well as the coffered ceiling layout?
Yeah, the framing part of the plans was the most detailed. He provided the location for every clip, channel, soffit, and the coffered ceiling layout.

My design looks very similar to this: Kinetic River Cinema which is where the problem was first pointed out to Dave, but he was using the average based math at the time as well.

Conversation on clip / channel spacing with Ted's input picks back up here: Kinetic River Cinema

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two layers of 5/8 drywall weighs 4.375 lbs per square ft multiply by the room size and divide by the clips used to see where you are. Add in a small allowance for the channels, green glue (two buckets) , and screws (5 lbs) .
Big, I appreciate the help, but I think that's an over simplification. I have extra clips & channels near the perimeter to support the soffit, but that's not going to help within the ~16' x 25' interior that has to hold the coffers. That space is using the 24" x 48" pattern that Ted is saying is not enough.

If you read Ted's comments further down in the discussion I linked to above, it's not just about how much weight the clips can hold. The clips are intended to provide a certain amount of "spring" to the ceilings and walls. If you look at the Kinetics ICW clip hangers, they actually have a color coded spring built into them. You buy the appropriate spring tension depending on the load they need to "float".



It's the same concept with the cheaper Whisper clips (and everything below), except there is no physical spring to swap for different loads. The "spring" is instead determined by the number of clips & their spacing. Space the clips too tight and the spring is too stiff. Space them too far apart and the spring is too loose. There is a long way between maintaining optimal spring and ceiling collapse. But just because the latter extreme doesn't happen, doesn't mean it's all good.

 

 


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post #129 of 145 Old 06-30-2014, 09:22 AM
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I think the only way to answer this definitively for your room is to talk to Dennis. The coffers may serve to reinforce the structure in such a way as to reduce the number of clips and channel required. If the channel edge is strong enough to prevent tearing out of the clip, then I can see where adding the coffers will stiffen the structure and reduce the deflection.

I honestly don't know, but using the variables that we have at the moment, it certainly doesn't look like a 24"x48" layout is sufficient to support that type ceiling. I think it would require a structural engineer to look at it to know for certain, or maybe contact the channel manufacturer. They may be able to point you in the right direction as well.

EDIT: Were there any additional clips spec'ed towards the center of the ceiling? If there are extra clips for the coffers, you would quickly go from a 24"x48" spacing to something closer to a 24"x32" or even 24"x16" spacing. I went back and looked at pictures of my ceiling, and I would guess my average spacing is less than 24"x32" between the coffers of my ceiling. Between the coffers and the soffit, I'd say only every third channel has a 48" span between clips.

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post #130 of 145 Old 07-07-2014, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by rabident

It's something to consider after you've completed your exotic car collection.


Is that a sarcastic comment or do you mean not everybody can afford custom made home theaters even if it costs 5K?
I wasn't trying to be snarky, just save you some pain. My quotes for drywall + room trim + plans were ~$175,000. That's just for the room. No chairs, no screen, no electronics. It was an existing framed room in my basement with electrical & HVAC run to the room. There wasn't going to be any curved drywall or stepped ceiling like the pics above. No foyer, entryway, star ceiling, or other perks. The plans were for their "classic" look - columns, riser, stage, basic square coffered ceiling, chair rail, bar top in back, etc. To save money I was going to paint everything (since you can get away with cheaper wood) and use GOM to cover the Quest panels.

 

 

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post #131 of 145 Old 07-09-2014, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
I wasn't trying to be snarky, just save you some pain. My quotes for drywall + room trim + plans were ~$175,000. That's just for the room. No chairs, no screen, no electronics. It was an existing framed room in my basement with electrical & HVAC run to the room. There wasn't going to be any curved drywall or stepped ceiling like the pics above. No foyer, entryway, star ceiling, or other perks. The plans were for their "classic" look - columns, riser, stage, basic square coffered ceiling, chair rail, bar top in back, etc. To save money I was going to paint everything (since you can get away with cheaper wood) and use GOM to cover the Quest panels.
Thanks for replying after a year Glad you weren't being snarky since that's not why people visit this great forum.

Well, 175K is more than my annual salary and I'll never be able to afford that kind of room. My budget is 30K that I'm trying hard to come up with.

Did you get your theater built finally? It would be good to see a 200K media room though.
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post #132 of 145 Old 07-09-2014, 09:14 PM
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Thanks for replying after a year Glad you weren't being snarky since that's not why people visit this great forum.

Well, 175K is more than my annual salary and I'll never be able to afford that kind of room. My budget is 30K that I'm trying hard to come up with.

Did you get your theater built finally? It would be good to see a 200K media room though.
While not as bad as some, he tends to troll threads where Erskine or EG (Erskine Group) is mentioned and take digs at them.

It's a shame that he and one or two other disgruntled people, you know the type that think they should be able to walk into an Audi dealership and say, "hey, I want that silver R8 in the parking lot. I'll pay cash for it today. I was just at the Ford dealership next door, and they had a Mustang for $30k, so that's what I'll give you for the R8" and expect to drive away with the R8 and when the salesmen laughs them off the lot, they get on internet forums and bash Audi for charging outrageous prices for their R8's, when they should just charge the same as a stripped down Mustang.

Anyway, it's a shame that he and that other guy or two managed to make it unpleasant enough that Erskine stopped offering free advice on room construction, acoustic treatment, etc., like he had for the previous ten years or so.

Anyone that hasn't done so should do an advanced search on AVS putting in Dennis Erskine in the posted by field and spend some hours reading back through his posts over the last few years and see how much free advice he offered, and realize that he is a big reason why we are even having discussions today about acoustics/HT room treatments and such on AVS.

Shame when a couple malcontents drive away a great forum resource.
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post #133 of 145 Old 07-09-2014, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
It would be good to see a 200K media room though.
Here's one:

Another new build

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Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
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post #134 of 145 Old 07-09-2014, 10:00 PM
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While not as bad as some, he tends to troll threads where Erskine or EG (Erskine Group) is mentioned and take digs at them.

It's a shame that he and one or two other disgruntled people, you know the type that think they should be able to walk into an Audi dealership and say, "hey, I want that silver R8 in the parking lot. I'll pay cash for it today. I was just at the Ford dealership next door, and they had a Mustang for $30k, so that's what I'll give you for the R8" and expect to drive away with the R8 and when the salesmen laughs them off the lot, they get on internet forums and bash Audi for charging outrageous prices for their R8's, when they should just charge the same as a stripped down Mustang.

Anyway, it's a shame that he and that other guy or two managed to make it unpleasant enough that Erskine stopped offering free advice on room construction, acoustic treatment, etc., like he had for the previous ten years or so.

Anyone that hasn't done so should do an advanced search on AVS putting in Dennis Erskine in the posted by field and spend some hours reading back through his posts over the last few years and see how much free advice he offered, and realize that he is a big reason why we are even having discussions today about acoustics/HT room treatments and such on AVS.

Shame when a couple malcontents drive away a great forum resource.
A huge +1 here. I considered writing a similar post many times and couldn't agree more.

FWIW, I was very far from being one of Dennis's high end clients, but he went above and beyond in all aspects. A very knowledgeable professional, good person, and a true asset to this forum.

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
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post #135 of 145 Old 07-09-2014, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
It would be good to see a 200K media room though.
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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
Here's one:

Another new build
That's a $425k media room! http://www.procella.citymax.com/erskine_award.html So much to love about that space.
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post #136 of 145 Old 07-09-2014, 11:21 PM
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A huge +1 here. I considered writing a similar post many times and couldn't agree more.

FWIW, I was very far from being one of Dennis's high end clients, but he went above and beyond in all aspects. A very knowledgeable professional, good person, and a true asset to this forum.
Great to hear you had a positive experience..........

While I didn't work with Dennis, my experience was less than stellar with EG. Does that make me a malcontent? Who knows what/how others think.........
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post #137 of 145 Old 07-10-2014, 06:50 AM
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That's a $425k media room! http://www.procella.citymax.com/erskine_award.html So much to love about that space.
I thought I had read on another page that one came in at around $250k. I was way off. So, I guess cut that room in half and you can see your $200k media room.

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post #138 of 145 Old 07-10-2014, 09:32 AM
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With a $90k Runco projector, a large Stewart micro perf screen with motorized masking, a Kaleidescape and a whole rack of QSC gear, I'd peg equipment costs alone to be close to $200k, leaving $225 for the room, lobby and all of the rough work.
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post #139 of 145 Old 07-12-2014, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
While not as bad as some, he tends to troll threads where Erskine or EG (Erskine Group) is mentioned and take digs at them.
It goes both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
It's a shame that he and one or two other disgruntled people, you know the type that think they should be able to walk into an Audi dealership and say, "hey, I want that silver R8 in the parking lot. I'll pay

cash for it today. I was just at the Ford dealership next door, and they had a Mustang for $30k, so that's what I'll give you for the R8" and expect to drive away with the R8 and when the salesmen laughs them off the lot, they get on

internet forums and bash Audi for charging outrageous prices for their R8's, when they should just charge the same as a stripped down Mustang.
You're wrong. Audi sells a range of cars for different price points. I wanted the price for an A6. Instead I was given the price of an R8 they just sold, and told what I would be giving up with an A6. The price wasn't bad for an R8, say $150k, but the A6 better suited my needs. They wanted $125k for the A6.

Had I just walked into the dealership and been told the price of an A6 was $125k, no harm, no foul. That's their pricing and I either take it or leave it. But to tell me they just sold an R8 for $150k and then expect me to buy an A6 for $125k? What were they thinking?

Some possibilities that crossed my mind:
  • This guy can't afford us. Lets lie about the price we just sold the R8 for. Make it something reasonable to him, and we'll at least get the non-refundable design fee out of him.
  • This guy can afford us. I've been trolling his threads telling him he has problems. Lets jack him on the price for an A6 and tell him it will fix his problems.
  • This is a side job. I'm just an IT guy working a desk job and I'm all out of paid time off. Lets jack him on the price because I don't really have time for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Anyway, it's a shame that he and that other guy or two managed to make it unpleasant enough that Erskine stopped offering free advice on room construction, acoustic treatment, etc., like he had for the previous

ten years or so.
The free advice was to demonstrate capability to prospective clients, not some altruistic plan to educate the AVS DIY community bit by bit over a 10 year span.

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Shame when a couple malcontents drive away a great forum resource.
I'll try not to take that personally. I know you're just puckering up for Dennis since you're in the middle of a contract with him.

It was his choice to leave and he didn't state his reasons. It could be that he was stretched too thin, quality started to suffer, negative feedback started coming in, and he decided to forgo his time on the forum to better focus on his paying customers.

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FWIW, I was very far from being one of Dennis's high end clients, but he went above and beyond in all aspects. A very knowledgeable professional, good person, and a true asset to this forum.
That's fortunate for you and your opinion is understandable. I also had a high opinion of Dennis when I signed with him. I wouldn't normally pay $6500 upfront in full. It's taken a lot to bring my opinion down to the point it is now.

After the EG room build fell through because of price shenanigans, I should have had the separate Signature engagement to fall back on. But I couldn't get Dennis to honor the remaining terms of the contract. I sent a list of missing deliverables. It was his choice to fulfill some, but not all of them.

Other members of the group offered to take over the remaining work, but wanted to be paid their hourly rate for their time. My one ask when it came to them eating the cost on anything, was that they work out that payment internally since I had already paid Dennis in full for all of the work. Paying someone else within the group for something I already paid for would mean paying twice, which was not fair to me.

Quote:
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A huge +1 here. I considered writing a similar post many times and couldn't agree more.
You're blaming the victim here. EG was misleading with their price info, would not honor the terms of the Signature contract, and then tried to capitalize on the situation to get more money out of me. But that's not a problem in your mind, right? Those grievances don't need to be resolved. With Dennis ignoring my private requests to try to work things out, I should simply keep quiet, taking one for the team, so AVS DIY community can continue to feed on scraps of "free advice".

 

 

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post #140 of 145 Old 07-12-2014, 02:00 PM
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You're wrong. Audi sells a range of cars for different price points. I wanted the price for an A6. Instead I was given the price of an R8 they just sold, and told what I would be giving up with an A6. The price wasn't bad for an R8, say $150k, but the A6 better suited my needs. They wanted $125k for the A6.
No. Sounds like the models got messed up in the quoted price. The only A6 version car that comes in close to $125K is the RS6... Which is not available in the USA.

I LIKE THE R8!! Great track car (V10 version) but my Porsche still smokes it in a straightaway!!!

BTW - Dennis did my room and continues to help me... Great service and a lot of experience.
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post #141 of 145 Old 07-12-2014, 04:03 PM
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It goes both ways.



You're wrong. Audi sells a range of cars for different price points. I wanted the price for an A6. Instead I was given the price of an R8 they just sold, and told what I would be giving up with an A6. The price wasn't bad for an R8, say $150k, but the A6 better suited my needs. They wanted $125k for the A6.

Had I just walked into the dealership and been told the price of an A6 was $125k, no harm, no foul. That's their pricing and I either take it or leave it. But to tell me they just sold an R8 for $150k and then expect me to buy an A6 for $125k? What were they thinking?

Some possibilities that crossed my mind:
  • This guy can't afford us. Lets lie about the price we just sold the R8 for. Make it something reasonable to him, and we'll at least get the non-refundable design fee out of him.
  • This guy can afford us. I've been trolling his threads telling him he has problems. Lets jack him on the price for an A6 and tell him it will fix his problems.
  • This is a side job. I'm just an IT guy working a desk job and I'm all out of paid time off. Lets jack him on the price because I don't really have time for this.



The free advice was to demonstrate capability to prospective clients, not some altruistic plan to educate the AVS DIY community bit by bit over a 10 year span.



I'll try not to take that personally. I know you're just puckering up for Dennis since you're in the middle of a contract with him.

It was his choice to leave and he didn't state his reasons. It could be that he was stretched too thin, quality started to suffer, negative feedback started coming in, and he decided to forgo his time on the forum to better focus on his paying customers.



That's fortunate for you and your opinion is understandable. I also had a high opinion of Dennis when I signed with him. I wouldn't normally pay $6500 upfront in full. It's taken a lot to bring my opinion down to the point it is now.

After the EG room build fell through because of price shenanigans, I should have had the separate Signature engagement to fall back on. But I couldn't get Dennis to honor the remaining terms of the contract. I sent a list of missing deliverables. It was his choice to fulfill some, but not all of them.

Other members of the group offered to take over the remaining work, but wanted to be paid their hourly rate for their time. My one ask when it came to them eating the cost on anything, was that they work out that payment internally since I had already paid Dennis in full for all of the work. Paying someone else within the group for something I already paid for would mean paying twice, which was not fair to me.



You're blaming the victim here. EG was misleading with their price info, would not honor the terms of the Signature contract, and then tried to capitalize on the situation to get more money out of me. But that's not a problem in your mind, right? Those grievances don't need to be resolved. With Dennis ignoring my private requests to try to work things out, I should simply keep quiet, taking one for the team, so AVS DIY community can continue to feed on scraps of "free advice".
Translation -- You saw the tricked out Erskine home theaters with all the fancy millwork and such in magazines and posted on here, decided you wanted one, but when you got the quote, got sticker shock. So, rather than just accepting that paying an out of town crew to travel in and build your theater was out of your budget, you decided to troll threads where Erskine mentioned and make snarky comments.

Maybe your communication style and problem resolution skills have something to do with what's happened.

As to me, I bought the plans with the intention to have a local contractor build my HT as part of my house build. Erskine answered countless questions about the room design and equipment options, all while I was indicating I would have it built locally.
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post #142 of 145 Old 07-12-2014, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Translation -- You saw the tricked out Erskine home theaters with all the fancy millwork and such in magazines and posted on here, decided you wanted one, but when you got the quote, got sticker shock. So, rather than just accepting that paying an out of town crew to travel in and build your theater was out of your budget, you decided to troll threads where Erskine mentioned and make snarky comments.
No, not that simple. I got the price for the highend theater and did not want to spend that much on millwork, fabric. star ceiling, entryway, etc. Dennis listed all the ways the design he was doing for me would be cheaper. The scope of work was greatly reduced & material quality dropped down to something on par with thebland's room. But the price barely came down at all. The tricked out theater wasn't a bad price, but the scaled down version of it was a rip off rip off by their own standards. When I asked about just going ahead with the highend theater at the price I was given, I was told that price would not be available to me. So it was scaled down theater @ rip off pricing, or nothing. Take it or leave it.

And when I left it, Dennis didn't finish the signature contract. That's to say nothing of the problems I had due to mistakes in the plans or the unacceptable length of time it took Dennis to get me plans (8 months). I was also building a house and a lot of the theater prep work ended up needing to be done without plans. I had to beg Dennis to send me plates covering the work for a particular trade that was scheduled. Sometimes he would get me that section of the plans in time, other times not.

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As to me, I bought the plans with the intention to have a local contractor build my HT as part of my house build. Erskine answered countless questions about the room design and equipment options, all while I was indicating I would have it built locally.
I made the decision to have them build it after I got the initial price info. That made things easier for Dennis. I probably should have planned to have my builder do it, like you did, then had EG do it at the last minute if I wanted. I didn't think they would try to jack me on the price. My fault for being too trusting, I guess. Same with paying upfront in full. Half now / half on delivery, deposit, retainers, and bills are all standard payment practices. Paying upfront in full was against my better judgment and left me with no recourse. I would encourage anyone purchasing plans not to pay in full upfront.

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P.S. I was on the fence about whether or not to put in a coffered ceiling (new Erskine build -- EG doing the construction), but wanting to put up some ceiling speakers (probably four) for Atmos has pretty much made up my mind to go with the coffered ceiling.
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Between now and the end of the year I will have the Erskine group building my home theater.
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Ok, I'm having a new Dennis Erskine home theater put in a new house (designed and constructed by the Erskine group).
I look forward to seeing your build thread. We like seeing pictures of the attached house going up as well.

 

 

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post #143 of 145 Old 07-13-2014, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe your communication style and problem resolution skills have something to do with what's happened.
You're not privy to the communication between Dennis and I, so you have no basis for comments like these. Communication is something Dennis doesn't do particularly well, and I have plenty of examples I can provide to illustrate that point. I won't argue intelligence or technical knowledge, but communication is a weak point.

In terms of problem solving, I considered suing for breach of contract & damages a last resort. My proposed solution was that they build the room for me. Dennis would make his standard profit from a build. They would have to work out the missing details in the plans as part of the build. Dennis gets paid. Steve gets paid. I get a theater. Works out well for everyone.

I wasn't asking for special pricing. I didn't try to leverage the fact that Dennis made mistakes in my plans, took an unreasonable amount of time to deliver plans, and had not completed the Signature contract - all of which cost me money. I just wanted the pricing we had previously discussed. Lower price, yes, but because my plans called for a much less "tricked out" room, as you put it. But making their standard profit on my build wasn't good enough. They wanted to leverage the problems I was having and make a killing on the build.

So it fell through. Dennis owed me completion of the Signature agreement, which was more work for him, and he still hasn't finished. I have a number of issues I need to pay someone else to examine because EG has pulled support. And as you can imagine, I'm not at all happy with the situation.

Other than bending over and taking it, which may be your style, what could I have done differently? Threaten a lawsuit right out of the gate like the other guy? Post all the e-mail communication between EG and I on the forum so everyone here could be the judge? I think I've been fairly civil, all things considered. I have to get a new designer and possibly tear down all the work that's been done so far. So, yes, expect an occasional snarky comment out of me regarding EG. They're getting off lightly.

 

 

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Where you cross the line, IMO, is when you troll other threads and make the snarky comments.

Sharing your experience is a good thing, so people can make an informed decision. There are a great deal of Erskine designed DIY and EG built theaters talked about on here and it would seem the positive reviews abd accolades far outweigh the negative, but people being informed of both sides is good, but don't make it a crusade that crosses the line of forum decorum by having you coming across like a troll with a personal grudge to settle.

I'm old enough and in business long enough to know there are typically two sides to every dispute/narrative, but ultimately that's between and the EG.
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Where you cross the line, IMO, is when you troll other threads and make the snarky comments.
Fair enough. I will refrain from doing so in the future.

 

 

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