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post #1 of 24 Old 01-19-2013, 01:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi there pepl..

We'r building a home theater. The construction part is easy but the audio/video part is a bit of a nightmare. We love great sound, movie fx that shaters your spine wink.gif. So far our audio setup has been the standard 5.1 in the livingroom out of the box setup. We have a ton of questions that we hope you freaks can help us with smile.gif

The budget for the audio/video is about 20.000$. We would preffer AV equipment that is easily availiable in europe, eBay and oversea bying is a possibility but the customs tax on imports are insane.

Here is a general layout:



The Room:



What we want:
A theater that is scalable. Future speaker configurations and placement. Ability to upgrade recivers etc to meet newer audio/video standards etc.The theater will be built as a standard box. The interior and deco will be built as a phone cover (easy to change).
The theater must be 99% wife (easy use) & iPhone/Pad compatibel!

We emphasize on the movie experience BUT i like listening to music to..

Construction:
General construction will be 1 layer of chipboard as a base and then 2 layers of drywall for sound damping.
We know the room is a bit of a tunnel, We can place a wall somewhere but will damping be an option? and what would be our bigest problem?

Watt:
1) Why is it that one need's more power than one uses on average? Has it to do with peaks?
2) Our room is 3,4 x 8 x 2,45 metic (inches: W:133,86 - L:314,96 H:96,45) The room can be shortened. What is the preffered watt amount per channel/speaker? (wery high volume is not important)

Subwoofer:
Alot of people have 2 sub’s (right and left) why is that?
Should we have a freestanding amp for my sub(s) or would one preffer a built in solution (Like Velodyne etc)

Front speaker config:
I have a friend with a pair of JBL Array 1400 and I love the sound. Another friend has a pair of old JBL K2 (JBL Synthesis setup) and I find the sound to sharp. The new K2’s has a great sound! We find that JBL in general give us the sound we love! only one tiny problem ... price smile.gif What is the optimal film/music config/setup for our budget and ears? (Front and suround speakers + subs)


Surround, back og Presens:
May I place the back speaker in the roof and tilt them or must I place them on floorstands?
I have configured low and high channels (19) and a sub channel in each corner (4). Is that a bit nutts? For the future what would be more than enough? (see under)

Channels:
Left, right and center front = 6 channels
Surround left & right = 4 channels
Back left & right = 4 channels
Back center = 1 channel

Amps, preAmps and recivers:
1) Are the a major difference in audio quality from power amplifiers? (JBL, Crown, Rotel etc)
2) I’v read alot about the Lexicon brand and I understand JBL are using their processors in their Synthesis systems. One can change the «inners» of it, should I consider other brands / solutions?

Wiring & pluggs:
1) Why is it that moust pro equipment are using XLR & SPK plugs?
2) Do we have to use 3-lead wires with these systems?
3) What cind of wire would You recomend (this is cheap to import from the US)
4) Every cable will be stretch in a plastic tube for easyer upgrade at a later stage. The tubes are available 16,20,30++ millimeters (inches: 0,62 - 0,78 - 1,18 +) For most wire the 16 would be enough but should i use 20mm? (HDMI will go in 40mm pipe)

Damping:
What cind of damping should I have and why?

Projector:
We have tried PJ’s from JVC and find them really great, are ther others on a lower pricepoint with the same visual quality?


Any thoughts realy.


I'm terrible sorry for my horible orthography. wink.gif
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post #2 of 24 Old 01-20-2013, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I got 2 emails showing that people has replyed to this thred, why is the replys missing?
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post #3 of 24 Old 01-20-2013, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyway, thanks to Tedd & W00lly for great input.

It's appreciated smile.gif

L.
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post #4 of 24 Old 01-21-2013, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Well your input was far from stupid W00lly smile.gif I have to learn everything from scratch.
If anyone is stupid it's me wink.gif I call it "green or learnaholic" - sounds better biggrin.gif
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-21-2013, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Got some electrical boxes from my electrician today, he had a bunch of wrongly ordered for 2-3 drywall layers. Great price smile.gif
Now I have to run a few miles of k-pipe between them ..

What do you call (US word for) the plastic pipe that runs between el. boxes?

mmmm..
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-21-2013, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Status pr. today:

Flooring insulated (5cm Styrofoam) 0.2mm dampprofing and 22mm chipboard glued (floating floor).

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post #7 of 24 Old 01-21-2013, 08:03 AM
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Well I'll post my thoughts agian then.
10' wide AT 2.35 scope screen.A false wall with at least 24" of space behind for speakers and subs. You could DIY your own with center stage XD material Chris at seymour AV also sells the Fidelio black velevt for a awesome price. This can be used for the screen frame border. http://www.seymourav.com/screens.asp

Maybe inwall speakers for your surrounds side and rear to save on space since you dont have much width. I used Jamo surround speakers which used to be produced by a Danish company that is now owned by Klipsh group. http://www.jamo.com/speaker-types/installation/?sku=IW606SUR

I really like the Panasonic for my projector as the price is right it looks great right out of the box and has the automatic lens control for zooming in for Scope movies. http://www.projectorpeople.com/projectors/projdtls.asp?itemid=27643&itmname=Panasonic+PT%2DAE8000U

On audio equipment I myself dont think a guy needs 20K in equipment for it to sound great. I'm pretty happy with my $300 dollar 7.1 Onkyo TX-NR609 but I do plan to upgrade to a 9.1 at some point and with a seprate Amp running the subs I think it sounds fantastic.



I'm sure others will chime in at some point.

Scott

The CopperFields Cinema

          Current Photo's

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post #8 of 24 Old 01-21-2013, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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First: I fitted the audio/el.boxes on my front today, almost perfect. I'm building in support for having the components inside the theater.
I'm having 2 layers of drywall and then a layer of chipboard or osb so I can skrew stuff al over the place. (is fasten a better word?) wink.gif



W00lly -> about "stupid"...
Bummer number 4987,8 in my basement/theater build smile.gif in this corner there will be 2x drywall + 1x chip/osb = a bit close! mad.gif
Well, it's an easy fix, some ripping of and a bitt of 2 by 4 smile.gif

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post #9 of 24 Old 01-21-2013, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W00lly View Post

Well I'll post my thoughts agian then.
10' wide AT 2.35 scope screen.A false wall with at least 24" of space behind for speakers and subs. You could DIY your own with center stage XD material Chris at seymour AV also sells the Fidelio black velevt for a awesome price. This can be used for the screen frame border. http://www.seymourav.com/screens.asp

There will be a false wall (ca 1m/40") thanks to you and #Tedd and probably a Dreamscreen as I can test it locally, my guess is that with customs, tax and shipping the price will be ruffly the same as a US imported DIY screen. But I will of course check the DIY solutions, even overseas.
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Originally Posted by W00lly View Post

Maybe inwall speakers for your surrounds side and rear to save on space since you dont have much width. I used Jamo surround speakers which used to be produced by a Danish company that is now owned by Klipsh group. http://www.jamo.com/speaker-types/installation/?sku=IW606SUR

I actually have a 7.1 system in the master bedroom and there we used JBL HTI8 in front + HTI55 Center and HTI6 as surround and back (In the US they are called SP8II/6II) , the sound is amazing and I'm thinking of ripping it out and using it in the theater, another buddy of mine have "Speakercraft" speakers in the ceiling (back) and as surround. I'm familiar with the Jamo brand, I had it when I was younger. PS: This is a great idea and reminder - I'v forgotten about it smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by W00lly View Post

I really like the Panasonic for my projector as the price is right it looks great right out of the box and has the automatic lens control for zooming in for Scope movies. http://www.projectorpeople.com/projectors/projdtls.asp?itemid=27643&itmname=Panasonic+PT%2DAE8000U

I'v installed a cople of Panasonic's in our church (strangely they worked smile.gif ) I'l bring my testBD's for a test session when the old "lades" are far gone! I can't remember the model but it's pretty new and amazingly easy to install and configure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W00lly View Post

On audio equipment I myself dont think a guy needs 20K in equipment for it to sound great. I'm pretty happy with my $300 dollar 7.1 Onkyo TX-NR609 but I do plan to upgrade to a 9.1 at some point and with a seprate Amp running the subs I think it sounds fantastic.

Well, your 300$ Onkyo is about 900$ in the land of tax wink.gif From time to time they'r on sale. I have a Onkyo TX SR608 and paid only 500$ on supersale (50% off) end 2010. I suppose this makes you catch your breath? Yepp - It's expensive over here wink.gif. We'v saved for years and years to get an amazing theater and tho it would be possible to get it cheaper it's sort of a retirement'ish present from us to us without doing to much DIY.
The budget is actually 40.000$ but its impossible for you Americans to comprehend our insane tax level biggrin.gif - So 20K of gods in the US marked will cost us 40/50K+ here with some exceptions.

High price for free healthcare wink.gif

Thanks again W00lly smile.gif
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-22-2013, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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If you find anything I'v missed -Please tell wink.gif

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post #11 of 24 Old 01-22-2013, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Did some last minute work before dinner smile.gif

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post #12 of 24 Old 01-22-2013, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I do admit that the front wall is a bit "crowded" but I will probably not use the high channels for speakers. The need for power sockets are great in this build, I will most likely use the high channels for that. All the high channels will therefor be fitted with a 16mm pipe for later electrical use.
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post #13 of 24 Old 01-23-2013, 05:32 AM
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Interesting project

I would be concerned about punching so many holes in the front wall from from a sound proofing perspective. However I am not familiar with those electrical boxes. I prefer to bring all the speaker wire into the theater shell through one hole and caulk any remaining gaps in the hole. Same for the electrical. Then route the wires to the desired locations though risers, soffits, columns and behind the screen wall. Looking at your design I don't see any of those aavailable so you should try to apply some sound deadening putty pads to the back of each box.

We call the connecting pipes conduit
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post #14 of 24 Old 01-23-2013, 06:21 AM
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Lars,
If you have a $20,000 budget for A/V equipment, you can get some pretty nice stuff. If you don't wanna upgrade in the future then I would go with separate amp and preamp. I would also get 2 subwoofers. The reason people do that is because one sub has a hard time sounding good in all the seats. 2 subs will even out the bass response in the room. The sound from your speakers will be different depending on which chair you are sitting in. 2 subs will help with that. I guess the only issue I would see, is that you live in Europe and I'm not sure what equipment is easily available to you and at what price. I've always been an M&K fan for speakers and I'm pretty sure you can get them over there since the new company is based out of Denmark. The actual name of the company is MK Sound.
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post #15 of 24 Old 01-24-2013, 02:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Interesting project

I would be concerned about punching so many holes in the front wall from from a sound proofing perspective. However I am not familiar with those electrical boxes. I prefer to bring all the speaker wire into the theater shell through one hole and caulk any remaining gaps in the hole. Same for the electrical. Then route the wires to the desired locations though risers, soffits, columns and behind the screen wall. Looking at your design I don't see any of those aavailable so you should try to apply some sound deadening putty pads to the back of each box.

We call the connecting pipes conduit

Thanks BIGmouthinDC. I am concerned about all the holes to, the electrical boxes must be like that cause building legislations require it (We can't draw unprotected wire for any distance without conduit). I have considered having all the audio / video cabling coming thru one hole, it might pass b.reg. I will use your tips on dampening the boxes and spend the time building drywall boxes around them, a bit work but with all those holes probably worth it smile.gif We live in the middle of nowhere so the only ones having an issue with the sound are those not in the theater from our household (me or my wife) smile.gif
The alternative is building the theater only making holes for the conduit and then put the boxes on a 2" by 2" framework on top of the wall, the problem there are that it will eat a lot of the general room-with. Anyway, i'l use a bathtub of greenglue on this project, and time, lots and lots of time fiddling with soundproofing vs. building legislations wink.gif

Thanks for the box-dampening tips, made my brain start spinning wink.gif

Lars.
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post #16 of 24 Old 01-24-2013, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Lars,
If you have a $20,000 budget for A/V equipment, you can get some pretty nice stuff. If you don't wanna upgrade in the future then I would go with separate amp and preamp. I would also get 2 subwoofers. The reason people do that is because one sub has a hard time sounding good in all the seats. 2 subs will even out the bass response in the room. The sound from your speakers will be different depending on which chair you are sitting in. 2 subs will help with that. I guess the only issue I would see, is that you live in Europe and I'm not sure what equipment is easily available to you and at what price. I've always been an M&K fan for speakers and I'm pretty sure you can get them over there since the new company is based out of Denmark. The actual name of the company is MK Sound.

Thank you JVoth.
I will have 2 subs, many people have contacted me about it (here) and for calibration reasons there will be a sub connection i each corner.

About the "MK Sound". I'v heard them play (MKSound 150 THX 5.1) and for movies they are really great, dynamic speech, they need a lot of power cause there not very sensitive but overall the preform really god. If you plan to listen to music to you need a second setup for that (my opinion). They are readily available around here and will be considered when the audio test period starts for real, that is when the real fun starts smile.gif

I have just come across a pair of 3 month old JBL Array 1400 for $ 7200.- thats under halve price but I won't bye anything until they'v been tested in my finished theater. A friend of mine have them and want to test them in my theater smile.gif. I'v heard a lot of Bowers & Wilkins, the Velodyne sub series and the PSB range. I have the PSB Image 7PT fronts, Image 2B surround and a small 10" Velodyne sub today.
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post #17 of 24 Old 01-24-2013, 09:12 AM
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I have the Array 1400s and an Array 880, which I plan to use in my new theatre (at least a year from completion, as a part of a major remodel). I'll be very interested in your evaluation of the Array 1400s. I have them in my living room now, and I love them, even though the room acoustics are terrible. I also have a pair of Array 1500s for my front subs.
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post #18 of 24 Old 01-24-2013, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I have the Array 1400s and an Array 880, which I plan to use in my new theatre (at least a year from completion, as a part of a major remodel). I'll be very interested in your evaluation of the Array 1400s. I have them in my living room now, and I love them, even though the room acoustics are terrible. I also have a pair of Array 1500s for my front subs.

Hi LeBon

I will give a full review of everything I test in the theater smile.gif I have some experience with the Array 1400 and the old K2 both in theater and in a stereo setup.

If I really dont like the sound my reviews tend to "stall" a bit, the old K2 review was horrible and the reason is that the old K2 came from Japan. For some reason the Japanese really like thin and sharp sound. I just can't find anything comfortable in that sound picture. We heard/saw a Madonna concert with a great Parasound HALO / Lexicon setup. The theater with the only dampening being the clothes on our body made me swear never to consider the old Japanese import JBL line wink.gif = End of that review..

The newer Array 1400 on the other hand produces a sound for those who are exploring the $10.000 to $30.000 ish price range. For a happy few (me included) these speakers are available used from time to time at 50% of retail, and thank god that so few wives like them.

I'v heard them with this little baby smile.gif. One can bye audiostuff that looks like and has the pricetag of creative art from the old masters. If your lucky enough or has worked your ass of, these audio setups can be yours. If not you have to beg, borrow and steal to get into the Array 1400 segment, for some of us even the used ones wink.gif But it's worth it. Beg, borrow but try not to steal because these dynamic, sharp with amazing deep, direct and controlled bass - are to big for a prison cell and the concrete fx will make the stay even worse wink.gif You might fit the JBL 880 center but it sounds much better in a good dampened theater with a bit of headroom and width. Space is a great thing with most speakers but the Array 1400 plays for your hearts delight even in a glorified shoebox..... sorry -I'm a bit biased. Lets stop before I'm running out of words smile.gif The Review will come in due time.

Lars.
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post #19 of 24 Old 01-24-2013, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Just ordered the doors for most of the house, all in oak. The theater door has 3 hinges for support of some extra soundproofing.
I made a photo edit of the result we'd like on the theater door:

Plain at the hall side (Gang), the other inside the theater (Kino).

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post #20 of 24 Old 01-25-2013, 03:49 PM
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I was able to find my JBL Array speakers at demo prices, as well -- around 50% of list. I replaced a pair of JBL S/2600s, which I liked a lot, but they aren't nearly as good as the Arrays. The sound field on the Array 1400s is just amazing.

I'm truly looking forward to hearing the Array speakers in an acoustically well-designed room. Dennis Erskine has done the room design for me, so all I need to do now is get it built...
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post #21 of 24 Old 01-25-2013, 04:00 PM
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I am really digging the European electrical boxes, looks like the "k-pipe" slides right into the enclosure without another connector? Is there an adhesive or mechanical connector that holds the two together? Is the k-pipe flexible, or rigid?
PS: Your theater door is beautiful

underachiever extraordinaire
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post #22 of 24 Old 01-27-2013, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaselfest View Post

I am really digging the European electrical boxes, looks like the "k-pipe" slides right into the enclosure without another connector? Is there an adhesive or mechanical connector that holds the two together? Is the k-pipe flexible, or rigid?
PS: Your theater door is beautiful

Hi - Thanks smile.gif

There's an metal clip on each side of the pipe (on the box) really rigid stuff, there is no way to pull the k-pipe out of the box when assembled! The K-pipe it selves is very flexible but strong. The pipe behave like a spring and should not be fastened very well so that if someone put a srew in the wall (dead on a k-pipe) it will flex away. Works great! The reason why we cant use naked wire is because mice etc can chew on it with the result that your house burn down wink.gif All electrical boxes and k-pipe don't burn.

Some years ago I had an apartment in Oslo (capital of Norway) and I had a fire in one of the boxes, a lot of smoke - awful smell but the fire where contained to the box only. When the electrician came he drew new wiring, changed the switch, cleaned the box - and that was that!

The doors will be a pain to make but I just have to do it wink.gif
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post #23 of 24 Old 01-28-2013, 01:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LeBon View Post

I was able to find my JBL Array speakers at demo prices, as well -- around 50% of list. I replaced a pair of JBL S/2600s, which I liked a lot, but they aren't nearly as good as the Arrays. The sound field on the Array 1400s is just amazing.

I'm truly looking forward to hearing the Array speakers in an acoustically well-designed room. Dennis Erskine has done the room design for me, so all I need to do now is get it built...

With a well designed room with dampening, basstraps and all the trimmings, the JBL system will deliver an amazing experience.
You have a perfect room that has a great potential. My guess is that that your mate's will come early to get a soft cinema seat. I do like your bar section, we will have a café type section in the back but we are still openminded on that smile.gif
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post #24 of 24 Old 01-28-2013, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I had some sper time so I made this little intro to some of the Nordic electrical/wire standard.

* All wires including heater-cable end censor, must be documented. (Written with measurements and photos)
* No wire can be drawn without fire-resistant k-pipe approved by the government. (except heater-cable that must be laid in cement, regulations apply)
* No electrical installation (over 12V) can be installed by non-certified personnel. (No insurance payment made if you can't document who did the work):
You may install k-pipe and boxes if your electrician allow it, the electricians firm will approve the work and be responsible for any errors.
* If the electrical board finds that you have "fixed" anything yourselves, they cut the mains immediately:
You have a short time to get it done professionally. Then the whole building(s) must be approved. This is BL#$% expensive!!! The bill to the electrician is peanuts! You will also be fined.

In a public building one should use color coded K-pipe :
Red: Wires for fire equipment and sensors only.
Blue: Data / Media. (AV also)
Orange: Alarm signal cable.
Green: Coaxial cabling. (AV also)
Beige: Electirical wire.
(In private homes one can use Beige k-pipe for everything and one does not have to document anything but electrical wiring.)

Some pictures of the k-pipes and the el. boxes:

This box can take 16 and 20mm K-pipe. They come in different colors but all work the same. They differ in size for different installations.
They all shall have a collar so one can screw it out to mach the wall + 1mm, there must not be a gap between the fixture and the el.box (e.g. lightswitch and el.box)



You have to remove the whole "pipe insert" to the el.box if you need to remove a k-pipe, it will not come out! extra inserts are always supplied.



The box is easily fixed to the framework with minimum 90mm nails:



The metal clips are designed to keep the k-pipe flush against the inside collar, you have to press the k-pipe firmly in, this will be checked by the el. board on inspection!



Here is an example of an outlet mounted. Only grounded installations are allowed.



Here are part of the documentation of the downstairs bathroom. (One have to document the exact position of the heater cable sensor)



If you have any questions I'l try my best to answer them smile.gif

L.
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