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post #31 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

What code change? Do you happen to have a link to it? I looked at the Ohio State Building Code and it appears they are allowed.. it even speaks to the cutting/notching of them. Is this a local law?

Tim

No, not local.

I believe this is it:
502.14 – Fire Resistance of Floors: I-joists spanning a basement require ½” gypsum board or 5/8” wood structural panel. Exceptions: 1) space above sprinkler, 2) located over crawl space with no storage or fuel fired appliances, 3) portions of floor assemblies can be unprotected when complying with the following: 3.1) aggregate area shall not exceed 80 square feet per story, 3.2) fire blocking is installed along perimeter of all unprotected areas, 4) wood floor assemblies using dimension lumber or structural composite lumber equal to or greater than 2” by 10” nominal dimension or approved floor assemblies demonstrating equivalent fire performance.

From here:
http://www.sidneyoh.com/Forms/Forms/Build/Code%20Changes%20%282013%29.pdf

This mentions it too:
http://newavenue1.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/fire-rated-i-joists/

I believe LVLs fall under SCL and thus are exempt.

If you want some interesting reading, it looks like some of the changes might be the result (somewhat) from this research paper:
http://aerospace.ceas.uc.edu/content/dam/aero/docs/fire/Papers/Ohio%20legislation.pdf

I guess unprotected I-Joists only lasting 6 minutes with a basement fire makes people nervous and the 1/2 drywall adds 20 minutes. I'd happily take a residential sprinkler system any day of the week (and no, Dominion won't do that! smile.gif )
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post #32 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Dominion Homes is a tract home builder ... maybe a slightly semi-custom home builder. They are not going to entertain major departures from their mass production style of building. What you get with this type of builder is "more home for the money" but less of "the home I really want". You can walk. The impact on the builder will depend largely on how quickly they are selling homes and the existing homes in their inventory.

The sewage issue is a distraction. It would only have a slight impact on any waste drains below the primary sewage line coming into the house. (And, there are solutions to that problem which are "off the shelf".) Frankly, what you are dealing with is a production builder who has no intention of departing from his SOP. That's his business model. Your real choices are to accept what you get or find a custom or semi-custom builder.

Thanks for your comments Dennis. Nice to hear from someone familiar with Dominion -- and the comment about the sewage.

It seems like new builders in the area aren't hurting for business, so are pretty content with building to plan..

Part of the challenge is staying within the region (school district that we want), so there just aren't THAT many new communities being built (or land for sale, for that matter).
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post #33 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Have they actually discussed your particular issue with the floor designer? Just because they have to use an LVL or paralam doesn't mean they don't have options in how they design the floor. Without some other input, the floor designer is going to design the floor in what seems to be the most convenient way. That doesn't mean there aren't other options.

What is the joist depth now? Have they considered replacing the beam that has the room "blocked" off with a steal I-beam? It's fire rated I'm pretty sure biggrin.gif If the other beams are 20" but a 10" steal beam will do the trick, you could route your mechanicals under that to get into the room. Again, it would be nice to talk with a floor designer about what you want, and let them try to figure out another approach.

It's a big decision, but ultimately you have to be happy with it. If you don't mind the reduced head hight, it's no big deal. If it's going to bother you every time you walk in there, then you need to find a solution now! Maybe reroute your mechanicals to behind a false screen wall where the reduced head height won't matter. New locations for the mechanicals maybe? Can they go in the attic? Get creative. I put off some theater decisions during my house build, and I really wish I hadn't now! There are several things that I would love to do differently, but I thought I could work it out later.

I think Dennis nailed it pretty well..... They aren't going to entertain "redesigning things". It cuts into what they call "efficiency", and what I call "profit".

8' in my mind isn't terrible, but I thought that pushing for 9' was practical.. Especially since it was achievable before the code change!
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post #34 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 02:16 PM
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Wow that is some progressive building code you have there. Looks like Ohio tacked that section on to the International Residential Code. Of course, it doesn't really address Open Joists, but I imagine that would not fair well. Overall the language is horrible, I feel for you!

It does read like you can use them as long as you fasten 1/2" GWB to the bottom.

Thanks for providing the links, I found them both interesting.

Tim
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post #35 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

Wow that is some progressive building code you have there. Looks like Ohio tacked that section on to the International Residential Code. Of course, it doesn't really address Open Joists, but I imagine that would not fair well. Overall the language is horrible, I feel for you!

It does read like you can use them as long as you fasten 1/2" GWB to the bottom.

Thanks for providing the links, I found them both interesting.

Tim

Hahaha. Thanks! I appreciate the sympathy!!!
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post #36 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I tried to talk to another builder today, but of course they were closed for a meeting. I'm planning on calling a couple other builders tomorrow to see how they handle basement ceilings. Mostly to appease my curiosity. I believe that most builders in the area use dimensional labor for joists, which would result in drops anyway... So it would be back to 9' ceiling (if offered) and then a finished ceiling at 8'.

So I guess the moral of the story is....... Unless you're doing a custom build, or by some miracle can do I-Joists w/drywall, getting a ceiling taller than 7-8' in Ohio is a real challenge!! At least until fire rated I-Joists get some acceptance.

Maybe *someday* a custom or semi-custom build will be an option, but at this stage of life, unfortunately just don't have that kind of cash!

I'm still struggling with the concept of the average customer who doesn't place a high value on a high ceiling, never mind a full basement! Who wouldn't love a huge tall basement?

I'm probably going to accept the deal and go forward. It's a lovely house, and I'll just need to compromise (since spending another 50k-150k isn't going to happen).
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post #37 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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Well, now that we've got that out of the way, the next step is to minimize the intrusion. Do you know anything about where the ducts and plumbing will be going as well as what the joist layout is?

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post #38 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I do actually. I don't believe there is any plumbing, but there are a few 6"-7" ducts that drop below the joists - as they run perpendicular to the joists to get to the furnace. The joists do block off the room (I've confirmed).

I do have a preliminary plan from the builder, and it looks like they're trying pretty hard to make the runs as short as possible. Unfortunately since most of the runs are for vents/returns from the floors above, they can't really be brought down into the basement anywhere closer to the furnace (to prevent the below joist run).

It's possible that if I'm really lucky, maybe I would only have to drop to 8' for half the room. I don't know how strange that would look, however?

I'm reluctant to post the plans publicly, but if you want to PM me, I could send you something.
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post #39 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 06:37 AM
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I understand. I think you would benefit from the group "think", though. Could you at least draw a box and indicate the directions and locations of joists and roughly where ducts will go? Nothing fancy, just enough that everyone else that's not familiar with your space can understand what's going on. Also, an idea of where you think you want the screen, doorway, etc. would be helpful, but not absolutely necessary at this point.

Here's what I'm getting at, in my mind I picture these joists running from the side with the window to the side with the bath. If that's the case, then have the HVAC people run the ductwork inside the joist bay all the way to the wall, then turn and drop down below the joists. If you have a false wall going on that end, you might even be able to get by with the ducts running side by side since it would be hidden by the false wall. That would save your headroom in there.

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post #40 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, I've decided to go ahead and post anyway. Why not?!

I was *wrong* about the joist orientation. I was so convinced that the room was blocked off, but it isn't when I look at pictures I've taken. The joists run from the bottom wall to the dropped beam in the middle (the beam being basically the room border).

So the ducts that go, say East-West would drop below joists. They could probably reroute it a a little better, but the fact that there are 5-6 drops that have to go east-west at some point make it challenging.

I'm no blueprint expert, but I believe the symbols on the left are returns and the symbols on the right the X's are vents.

I'm trying as a last ditch effort to maybe look at the "Finished Basement" option. It would give the drywall ceiling that I need for 9' ceilings and would save ALL this headache. I might even get spousal approval if we can look at an example finished basement and she feels the cost is worth it ($11k!). Would still revamp ceilings and walls down the road for isolation though.
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post #41 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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post #42 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 08:50 AM
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Guess I should have posetd ealrier, but if they weren't willing to go DOWN another foot due to sewage lines being too deep, is there any reason they can't go a foot TALLER? I'm sure they remove enough dirt from the basement dig to backfill the extra foot of foundation that may be showing.

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post #43 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post

Guess I should have posetd ealrier, but if they weren't willing to go DOWN another foot due to sewage lines being too deep, is there any reason they can't go a foot TALLER? I'm sure they remove enough dirt from the basement dig to backfill the extra foot of foundation that may be showing.

I've thought about that, but didn't even want to ask...... I've been hammering the sales guy and he's been going up to bat every single time for me. I love the sales guy, but corporate has been the issue.

I thought that I had found the perfect compromise with the idea of doing a half basement - deeper pour and leaving the plumbing alone, but that was a dead end too.

Perhaps we'll love the finished basement and can then justify the cost...... and I can tear out the stuff I don't like in a couple years and build my room right! (I'm trying to be optimistic!!!). At the end of the day though, it should still be a nice 8' regardless. I'm a little over 7' with my current basement with a drop ceiling. I think it barely meets code!
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post #44 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post

Guess I should have posetd ealrier, but if they weren't willing to go DOWN another foot due to sewage lines being too deep, is there any reason they can't go a foot TALLER? I'm sure they remove enough dirt from the basement dig to backfill the extra foot of foundation that may be showing.

Yes, they can do that. There are places in my basement where the poured walls are lower because it follows the exterior grade. They stick frame up to the joist height from there. You can't backfill above where the poured wall stops. But if you've got the dirt, I can't see why they could pour the walls a foot taller.

You have to keep in mind what that does to your home, though. It will be a foot higher than if you hadn't. You'll have two extra steps at your front and back porch. Probably extra steps coming in from the garage. You get the idea.

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post #45 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, opted not to do the finished basement, so going to lose a few inches. Looks like most of the runs are 6", with some 7", so it shouldn't be a losing a full foot! Appears that I'll likely be framing out the (isolated) ceiling -- rather than doing clips and hat channel. Should give a fair amount of room for conduit and other stuff too (Not to mention space to run additional ducting or the room itself)

Thanks for all the comments. I wasn't expecting much feedback, but I've gotten tons - and I appreciate it!
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post #46 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 02:29 PM
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It's nice to make a decision when you feel like you've exhausted all the possibilities! It makes it easier to live with the results.

You should start a build thread, there are a lot of smart people in this forum!

On a side note, I think I understand your drawing above. Can you get the HVAC guys to route your ducts INSIDE the joist bays until you get to the perimeter of the room, then drop down below them? That way you can build a soffit around the perimeter to house them, but still keep the tall ceilings in the center. You really wouldn't be out anything there since most people build soffits anyway for their lighting. You'd just have to be a little creative in how you built the soffits.

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post #47 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I actually wanted to do soffits to begin with, and I figured with a real ceiling at 9', that would give me PLENTY of height to do a soffit in the room to stick lighting and and internal room ducting. I'm going to try to redraw the photo some to get rid of some of the distractions, and maybe I can even stop by the model house again soon and look at the joist design. That would let me correlate vent placement with joists --- since the design unfortunately doesn't show the joist bays.

I was expecting a CAD drawing, maybe more of the duct path is determined on the fly than I thought.

I might be able to talk to the HVAC guys directly, since going the official route seems to be unproductive. In my experience, most tradespeople I've met are pretty cooperative/rational.
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post #48 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 05:31 PM
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I had a lot of luck with our subs. I tried to make sure they understood I was asking for their help. Lots of times I would ask what they would do if it was their home, that sort of thing.

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post #49 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Cleaned up image (removed in-room vent "4x10 in CLG), and removed dryer vent run.


My awesome "Paint" artwork. Probably too dense, but seems cleaner - and some runs might even be shorter.


I actually wonder if a HVAC contractor could extend the trunk line. That would just mean those few runs straight into the trunk. Would be a drop --- but fewer turns.

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post #50 of 55 Old 02-07-2013, 06:01 AM
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It will be a foot higher than if you hadn't. You'll have two extra steps at your front and back porch. Probably extra steps coming in from the garage. You get the idea.

Depends on how they grade the exterior, but you would probably have an extra step or two up from the garage.

RE: soffits and HVAC
One thing I noticed in my house (built around 1991) is that in comparing to other exact models in the neighborhood (there are 6 in the 'hood out of 45) is that the electric, HVAC and water runs are all different. It looks to me like it depends on who got in to the house first as to where things are. In my case, it looks like the electricians got in first, then HVAC guys, then the plumbers. The HVAC took the easy way and gave themselves plenty of room to work. The plumbers then must have taken one look at the HVAC and took the even EASIER way, which was to run the water lines on the OUTSIDE of the main trunk. This made it so that my soffit measures out ot something like 42". I wanted to match it on the other side, but in as 12' wide room with a 7'2 cieling, that didn't leave enough headroom to pass code. I had to only do the one soffit. I guess I COULD have moved the trunk and water lines, but it would have been a LOT of work to save, MAYBE 12". In others of the same model, it looks like the HVAC guys were last because the main trunk is already closer to wall and the water lines are on inside of the trunk.

So I'm just saying that the way the model is completed may not be the way yours is completed.

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post #51 of 55 Old 02-07-2013, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Tom - Thanks for your comments. I think the ambiguity in the drawing I got was done so that they would have some flexibility in how they wanted to do it "on the fly" - pretty much like what it sounds like you're saying. It's cool that you've been able to make comparisons with other houses that are the same model. I imagine the trunk placement and furnace placement is probably set in stone in my build (so they can do 100 other same model homes the same way), but the other runs vary some.

I'm hoping to become chummy with the super, and maybe my desires can steer *something* down the road. Reworking the HVAC runs later - I don't think should be impossible, even if it costs some money. I haven't even seen what the joist bays look like w/LVL joists, so I'm curious. Probably nothing different than any other normal dimensional lumber joists. Wonder if you can run ANYTHING through LVL, like electrical? I should read up..

Completely understand about the ceiling height and code..... I understand the reasons for the code, but it's a challenge to get everything else to all work together too!

I found myself scared, looking at the original design, thinking the runs were 8", but the runs that criss-cross are almost all 6". Maybe I'm being anal about height though. I just felt strongly about it, because you can't realistically change it once it's built.
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post #52 of 55 Old 02-07-2013, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting, it looks like you can run some things through LVL, in some cases, up to 1.5 inch holes:
http://homeremodelersstore.com/web_articles/framing/notching-drilling%20lam.pdf

I'm new to all these "fake wood" joists, so it's interesting. Sorry.. I shouldn't say fake wood......."Engineered floor system components"
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post #53 of 55 Old 02-07-2013, 06:59 AM
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I know I've asked this, and you've probably answered, but I can't remember, which way do the joists in the room run? I see you have the two around the perimeter shown, but that doesn't necessarily mean the joists inside the room run that way.

As far as cutting and LVL, it depends. In our house they used LVLs to span large areas where a load was being supported from above (i.e. they are "stronger" than wood I-beams). Whenever they needed to cut a hole in one, the floor designer had to come out and tell them exactly where they could cut it. Wit that said, if your entire floor is built with the things, they're not all supporting that kind of load, so I don't think the same rules should apply, but that doesn't mean they don't. I watched them cut a ~4" hole through one of our LVLs and it looked like it was tough to do. It probably took 20 - 30 minutes to do.

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post #54 of 55 Old 02-07-2013, 07:20 AM
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Assuming all the joists are running the way you have shown above, this is what I'm thinking. Sorry for the poor scan.


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post #55 of 55 Old 02-07-2013, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Hopefully this clears it up.

I need to pick a better program for doodling... Maybe Visio.


There is a support beam going left-right at the bottom of the room and at the top - right before the trunk
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