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Old 02-06-2016, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 02-06-2016, 10:45 AM
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These are the in-wall versions of those other two pair you are watching. They are asking way too much for their age and condition.

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Old 02-06-2016, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
These are the in-wall versions of those other two pair you are watching. They are asking way too much for their age and condition.
Thx

What about the rear surrounds I posted earlier?
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Old 02-07-2016, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 02-08-2016, 05:29 AM
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The other ones are too small. You won't be able to hit the SPL you need for your size room. These would be better, though maybe still not quite ideal. For the price, I'd say give it a shot if they fit where you want to put them. If you find out you need to replace them in the future, you won't be out much.

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Old 02-08-2016, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
The other ones are too small. You won't be able to hit the SPL you need for your size room. These would be better, though maybe still not quite ideal. For the price, I'd say give it a shot if they fit where you want to put them. If you find out you need to replace them in the future, you won't be out much.
I can wait - no big thing. thanks for feedback!
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Old 02-09-2016, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
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GOOD NEWS! the estimate for the theater is here and it's a price that I can afford! YAAAAAY!

No carpet, no prime or paint so there will be added cost after this is done but those are things I am happy to take care of myself.

Can someone proofread the electric for me? No idea how to read that or what to ask.

Lots of unanswered questions but here is the estimate from the contractor (my comments in red):

THEATER ROOM

Framing:

- Frame 2x4 Walls with Treated Bottom Plates OK
- Frame Soffit around Heat Ducts on Two (2) Sides of Room he pledged to leave me as much headroom as possible
- Install 2x10 Solid Bridging Between Ceiling Joists this is to eliminate the projector shaking
- Install 10" Insulation between Ceiling Joists need to confirm this is pink fluffy and not rockwool
- Extend Seating Platform 2' to Back Wall I think he left out that he has to extend the platform left to right as well

Heating

- Drop Supply Vent through New Ceiling OK
- Remove Section of Supply Vent and Re-route to Opposite Side of Room think he means return vent
- Cut in New Return Vent OK
- Vent Exhaust Fan in Media Closet to Outside OK

Electric
- Install Exhaust Fan in Media Closet with Thermostat OK
- Install Four (4) Can Lights (white trim) BLACK Trim, also nix these...?
- Install Four (4) Light Openings for Sconce Lighting OK
- Install Two (2) Switches, Two (2) 20 Amp Outlets, and Five (5) Standard Outlets not sure if this is right, need 2 4 plug outlets in riser, not sure how to proofread this

Drywall
- Hang and Tape 1/2" Drywall on Interior Walls OK
- Hang and Tape Two (2) Layers of 5/8" Drywall on Ceiling and Soffit (no details on clip and channel here... hmmmm)

Trim
- Install 3" Baseboard Around Perimeter of Room (Interior Only) OK
- Install One (1) 3'0 Six-Panel Door w/Hardware OK
- Install One (1) 1'6 Six-Panel Door w/Hardware for Entrance Behind Screen) not needed
- Install One (1) 2'0 Six-Panel Door w/Hardware for Media Closet OK
- Install Shelving for Media Closet might nix this - I feel like metal shelves are really the way to go here, just can't figure out how to get them for a reasonable price

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Old 02-09-2016, 07:35 AM
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I think it looks solid. Couple things that come to mind:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
Framing:

- Frame 2x4 Walls with Treated Bottom Plates OK - Were you going to get a quote for staggered stud walls? I'm possibly mis-remembering, but I thought I read that.
- Frame Soffit around Heat Ducts on Two (2) Sides of Room he pledged to leave me as much headroom as possible
- Install 2x10 Solid Bridging Between Ceiling Joists this is to eliminate the projector shaking
- Install 10" Insulation between Ceiling Joists need to confirm this is pink fluffy and not rockwool
- Extend Seating Platform 2' to Back Wall I think he left out that he has to extend the platform left to right as well - Ideally this would be done after drywall. That way it can be built so as not to tough the walls and prevent sound transmission out of the theater. Also, consider building it so that it can act as a bass trap. @granroth; had a great thread on the subject as have others. I'll try to dig one up.

Heating

- Drop Supply Vent through New Ceiling OK - Ideally, you want to have your supplies in the front of the room and the returns in the back. People are more accostomed to having air blow in their faces than on their necks which can be uncomfortable.
- Remove Section of Supply Vent and Re-route to Opposite Side of Room think he means return vent
- Cut in New Return Vent OK
- Vent Exhaust Fan in Media Closet to Outside OK - Confirm where this will be exhausted to. You don't want to have the air exhausted outside. When the air is sent outside, you create a negative pressure in you house. That void has to be filled with something and the only option then is unconditioned outside air coming back into your home. You're making your HVAC system work extra hard for no reason. A better option might be to just dump it into your main return.

Electric
- Install Exhaust Fan in Media Closet with Thermostat OK
- Install Four (4) Can Lights (white trim) BLACK Trim, also nix these...?
- Install Four (4) Light Openings for Sconce Lighting OK
- Install Two (2) Switches, Two (2) 20 Amp Outlets, and Five (5) Standard Outlets not sure if this is right, need 2 4 plug outlets in riser, not sure how to proofread this - Get a detailed schematic of the locations on all outlets and lights. It shouldn't take your guy long to put that together, he sounds pretty solid. How were you planning on allocating the outlets?

Drywall
- Hang and Tape 1/2" Drywall on Interior Walls OK
- Hang and Tape Two (2) Layers of 5/8" Drywall on Ceiling and Soffit (no details on clip and channel here... hmmmm)

Trim
- Install 3" Baseboard Around Perimeter of Room (Interior Only) OK
- Install One (1) 3'0 Six-Panel Door w/Hardware OK
- Install One (1) 1'6 Six-Panel Door w/Hardware for Entrance Behind Screen) not needed
- Install One (1) 2'0 Six-Panel Door w/Hardware for Media Closet OK
- Install Shelving for Media Closet might nix this - I feel like metal shelves are really the way to go here, just can't figure out how to get them for a reasonable price
Regarding your media closet, I'd have your guy frame the closet for a server rack. You can find them cheap on CL. I know you're not going to want to drive to get this one, but something like this would be ideal. https://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/sop/5432961481.html

Slim 5 racks from Middle Atlantic are very popular as well and come in a lot of different sizes. Here's one.

You can find the shelves cheap on ebay or Monoprice. Only downside of the Monoprice racks is the stupid lip on the front of the rack. Makes it difficult to get stuff in and out if you like to change up your stuff frequently.

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Old 02-09-2016, 07:39 AM
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Another thing that I haven't seen discussed is your low voltage wiring plan. Who's going to be running your HDMI, speaker wire and CAT6. Have you thought through all your wiring runs yet? You will want to have this more or less finalized before construction starts.

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Old 02-10-2016, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Why am I not getting emails when someone replies here? HRM!

That rack looks interesting - will dive in to more details on that. Thanks. I don't mind driving if it means I can get a value I cant get anywhere else (which of course leads to the question why didn't I go get those triads from Dundee...)

re : signal and speaker wiring - yah that's all me and no I don't have a perfect plan for it just yet other than I know I need a "tube" from the media closet to the projector and to the screen (and to each of the surround speakers)

panic attack break...

You would think after two years I would have a more solid plan for all this stuff... sigh... I find myself panicking now that construction is coming - maybe I thought it never would...?

boy he says this whole project will only last 3 weeks. Now I will have a ton of stuff to do after he leaves but MAN, that seems fast to me.

anyways....

OK I also need help with a plan for the false/screen wall - I promised the contractor I would give him a plan to build to. I need shelves for the 3 triad speakers and a frame to hang the screen and panels on (it was not my plan to drywall any of this)

The current plan for the ceiling drywall is mounting with resilient channel - I feel like I should step in and buy whisper clips - this is one area where I don't mind spending extra money. But without green glue, I'm not sure if it's really going to matter. they are doing pink fluffy not rock wool in the ceiling


For the 2x10 bridging they said they were only going to do one row down the middle of the theater - I feel like I want more than that? This is to keep the projector from moving and keep foot traffic in the kitchen above from impacting the theater.

They are not doing any insulation around the outside of the theater but I'm okay with that for now I figure I can throw rockwool in there as time permits. The only place where I can't do that is along the staircase so I need to figure that out beforehand.

They are going to incorporate lights on the riser steps at additional cost.

Media closet - need to research per your link above.

Man 2 years of reading forum threads and now it's my turn and I'm panicking...wtf... lol
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Old 02-10-2016, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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oh! forgot...

do I need insulation on the outside wall? So picture this, there's drywall, framing and then the existing basement insulation and then the concrete wall - do I need to insulate the framing?

looks like bacon race did?

The "Bacon Race" Theater / Patio / Bar Project
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Old 02-10-2016, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
I know you're not going to want to drive to get this one, but something like this would be ideal. https://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/sop/5432961481.html

Slim 5 racks from Middle Atlantic are very popular as well and come in a lot of different sizes. Here's one.

You can find the shelves cheap on ebay or Monoprice. Only downside of the Monoprice racks is the stupid lip on the front of the rack. Makes it difficult to get stuff in and out if you like to change up your stuff frequently.
what's your search term on CL? I can never get results.

That one is too tall - I will need it to start at 13" off the floor and then my ceiling is only 93" except the HVAC will hang down, so riser to HVAC is...69 inches? Something like that.

also re hvac - supply is going to be left side and return right side - there is no getting around this.

Last edited by JRock3x8; 02-10-2016 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 02-11-2016, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 02-11-2016, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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ok my most urgent needs are :

1) a plan for the screen wall that I can give to my contractor - needs to incorporate shelves for speakers behind a spandex screen. He wants to anchor it to the side walls as opposed to hanging it from the ceiling (which I think is fine?) I will be hanging a spandex AT screen in front of the screen wall.

2) a media cabinet solution

3) go/no go on resilient channel as opposed to clip and channel. This drywall guy has used the resilient channel in other theater builds in my area and he swears by it. I know clip and channel is better - I'm just trying to figure out how much better. Does Ted White's site address this anywhere? I don't remember seeing it.
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Old 02-11-2016, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
Another thing that I haven't seen discussed is your low voltage wiring plan. Who's going to be running your HDMI, speaker wire and CAT6. Have you thought through all your wiring runs yet? You will want to have this more or less finalized before construction starts.
is there any benefit to running multiple cat5/6 wires to the media cabinet vs just one and having a switch in the media cabinet to split them all?

The thought was to run sub/composite cables, speaker wire, HDMI and an ethernet cord to the screen area through a conduit/plastic pipe separate from the power running along the same wall.

Then separately I need speaker wire runs to each speaker and a nice big fat pipe to run to the projector for HDMI,VGA,Component, whatevs.
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Old 02-11-2016, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
is there any benefit to running multiple cat5/6 wires to the media cabinet vs just one and having a switch in the media cabinet to split them all?
Yes, because cat5e/6 wires are useful for lots of AV purposes besides Ethernet. You should have multiple cat5e/6 drops to your AV cabinet, and at least two between the cabinet and the projector location...

Quote:
The thought was to run sub/composite cables, speaker wire, HDMI and an ethernet cord to the screen area through a conduit/plastic pipe separate from the power running along the same wall.
Run all of that outside the conduit - you want the conduit left empty for the future. For pre-terminated cables like HDMI, protect the ends from damage during construction, or wait until after construction to pull the HDMI cable through the conduit.

Jeff

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Old 02-11-2016, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
Yes, because cat5e/6 wires are useful for lots of AV purposes besides Ethernet. You should have multiple cat5e/6 drops to your AV cabinet, and at least two between the cabinet and the projector location...

Run all of that outside the conduit - you want the conduit left empty for the future. For pre-terminated cables like HDMI, protect the ends from damage during construction, or wait until after construction to pull the HDMI cable through the conduit.

Jeff
When you say drops you mean wires? I am not aware of any devices that I own or plan to own that use ethernet for anything other than a network connection - color me skeptical on that point.

I also don't follow running signal wires outside the conduit? If I need an empty conduit then I can always add an empty tube, but why wouldn't I want to group all my wires in an organized tube?
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
When you say drops you mean wires? I am not aware of any devices that I own or plan to own that use ethernet for anything other than a network connection - color me skeptical on that point.
Not Ethernet - raw "cat5e" wire. Useful for HDMI extenders, IR, 12Vdc trigger, analog audio, etc. Lots and lots of uses for a dime a foot... And yes, multiple wires.

Quote:
I also don't follow running signal wires outside the conduit? If I need an empty conduit then I can always add an empty tube, but why wouldn't I want to group all my wires in an organized tube?
Because the conduit doesn't serve any purpose (for low-volt wires or anything else not required by code to be in a conduit) except to provide a pathway for future cables to be run. Which means you want that conduit "free" and open to make it easy to run cables in the future.

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Old 02-11-2016, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
Not Ethernet - raw "cat5e" wire. Useful for HDMI extenders, IR, 12Vdc trigger, analog audio, etc. Lots and lots of uses for a dime a foot... And yes, multiple wires.
ok - cat5/6 wires are reasonably cheap, no harm there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
Because the conduit doesn't serve any purpose (for low-volt wires or anything else not required by code to be in a conduit) except to provide a pathway for future cables to be run. Which means you want that conduit "free" and open to make it easy to run cables in the future.

Jeff
So call me anal retentive if you want but is there any harm to having all that stuff run in a dedicated tube as opposed to just loose between the framing and the outer wall insulation? I like neatness

Also wouldn't I minimally want to put a string or something through that empty tube to assist in pulling wires through? How wide should that empty tube be?

Thanks for all the answers. Really helpful.
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:58 AM
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A pull string can be useful, but a vacuum cleaner and a plastic bag can run a pull string into an open conduit very easily. No need to worry about that now. Larger conduit is best - large cable ends can be hard to deal with. I think I ran 1.5" but would have preferred 2". Lowes didn't have anything bigger and shipping was high, so I just went for what they had when I needed flexible conduit. For access into my riser, I ran 2.5" PVC with sweep bends.
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:58 AM
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You will likely be running and securing those loose in wall cables neatly to nearby studs.

You can use string for your conduits but I didn't. I just use fish tape.

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Old 02-11-2016, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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For access into my riser, I ran 2.5" PVC with sweep bends.
Forgive me - why do you need signal cables in the riser and what are sweep bends?
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Old 02-11-2016, 09:31 AM
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Subs on the riser need cables. I ran cables outside the conduits, but you never know. I also wanted (and ran) HDMI and the possibility of other cables near the seats so I could bring in the occasional game console or personal media player or something. So I can sit in my seat and connect my buddy's iPod and control it locally.

It's largely one of those "you never know" options.

Sweep bends are larger radius bends in the rigid PVC. For most cases in plumbing, a tight radius is advantageous because it fits in a wall or floor more easily. But a sweep bend is easier to run cables through if you have the space. Both are generally available at the big box.
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Old 02-11-2016, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
So call me anal retentive if you want but is there any harm to having all that stuff run in a dedicated tube as opposed to just loose between the framing and the outer wall insulation? I like neatness
Behind the wall that you'll never see???

As quamosa said, the wires still get secured against the studs (try to minimize - just enough to prevent wires from getting pinched or damaged during drywall installation). It's much easier to deal with the loose wires at the exit points - trying to get two conduit runs into the same point will require a larger (dual-gang) cut-out at least. But yeah, if you want to run a 2nd conduit just to fill it up to keep things "neat behind the wall", no harm - just time and money...

Signal wires to the risers could be for buttkicker / D-Box controls, USB or device docks, Ethernet devices, headphone jacks - but most importantly: "stuff we don't know about or hasn't been invented yet". Conduit is the only true "futureproof" cabling solution. Cat5 wires comes in 2nd...

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Old 02-11-2016, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
Behind the wall that you'll never see???
(suddenly feeling self conscious...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
trying to get two conduit runs into the same point will require a larger (dual-gang) cut-out at least. But yeah, if you want to run a 2nd conduit just to fill it up to keep things "neat behind the wall", no harm - just time and money...
actually in my case we are expecting to have a little room to play with outside the framing - I have concrete covered in white insulation which we will then push up the framing against so it won't require us to drill through studs - that's the plan anyways.

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Conduit is the only true "futureproof" cabling solution.
Jeff
noted

what was the "sweep bends" that was mentioned earlier?
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Old 02-11-2016, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
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what was the "sweep bends" that was mentioned earlier?
HopefulFred answered above... A larger, more gentle arc than what is normally needed for plumbing (liquid), which is easier to pull wires through. But I'd suggest flex conduit anyway for anything with more than one simple bend.

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Old 02-12-2016, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Update: contractor got called to a "real job" building a house so there will be a 3 week delay which is frankly good news for me as I am not quite set and my bonus check will arrive at almost precisely that time.

Ok getting wires to and fro seems to be pretty much settled.

Still panicking about the screen wall / speaker shelfs - Anyone have any french cleat recommendations for the screen? My design in my head says you just build a 12" shelf extending behind the screen wall and anchor it with a 45 degree piece of wood? I looked at dozens of screen walls from this site and I can't find one that will be a match - part of my problem is that the wall behind the screen wall will be left unfinished so there's nowhere to anchor the speaker.

do I insulate around the outside wall of the theater? Again, the sequence is concrete wall, existing insulation (secured to concrete), framing, drywall - does the framing need to be insulated?

Ceiling is going to be finished with resilient channel - wow just read Ted White's commentary on resilient channel - those are not kind words. Sent note through form on their website.

For the 2x10 bridging they said they were only going to do one row down the middle of the theater - I feel like I want more than that? This is to keep the projector from moving and keep foot traffic in the kitchen above from impacting the theater.
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Old 02-12-2016, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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screen wall concept :

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Old 02-14-2016, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Are these numbers generally accepted as accurate?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_transmission_class


STC Partition type
27 Single pane glass window (typical value) (Dual pane glass window range is 26-32)"STC Ratings".
33 Single layer of 1/2″ drywall on each side, wood studs, no insulation (typical interior wall)
39 Single layer of 1/2″ drywall on each side, wood studs, fiberglass insulation [2]
44 4″ Hollow CMU (Concrete Masonry Unit) [3]
45 Double layer of 1/2″ drywall on each side, wood studs, batt insulation in wall
46 Single layer of 1/2″ drywall, glued to 6″ lightweight concrete block wall, painted both sides
46 6″ Hollow CMU (Concrete Masonry Unit) [3]
48 8″ Hollow CMU (Concrete Masonry Unit) [3]
50 10″ Hollow CMU (Concrete Masonry Unit) [3]
52 8″ Hollow CMU (Concrete Masonry Unit) with 2″ Z-Bars and 1/2″ Drywall on each side [4]
54 Single layer of 1/2″ drywall, glued to 8″ dense concrete block wall, painted both sides
54 8″ Hollow CMU (Concrete Masonry Unit) with 1 1/2″ Wood Furring, 1 1/2″ Fiberglass Insulation and 1/2″ Drywall on each side [4]
55 Double layer of 1/2″ drywall on each side, on staggered wood stud wall, batt insulation in wall
59 Double layer of 1/2″ drywall on each side, on wood stud wall, resilient channels on one side, batt insulation
63 Double layer of 1/2″ drywall on each side, on double wood/metal stud walls (spaced 1″ apart), double batt insulation
64 8″ Hollow CMU (Concrete Masonry Unit) with 3″ Steel Studs, Fiberglass Insulation and 1/2″ Drywall on each side [4]
72 8″ concrete block wall, painted, with 1/2″ drywall on independent steel stud walls, each side, insulation in cavities

I've bolded the range that I'm in from 39 to 59. Neither is quite accurate as I will never get to 59 with not having double drywall on my floor and also I'm still considering the relative value of drywalling the walls of the entire basement.

I think these are Ted White's numbers?

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...nnel-assembly/

Drywall Assembly vs Clips & Channel Assembly
Posted on January 6, 2012 by Plugz
Wall Assembly: Standard Drywall Construction

STC Source Side Studs Insulation Receive Side Test #
40 One 5/8″ layer of drywall 24″ OC R13 Fiberglass One 5/8″ layer of drywall OL 05-1003
42 Two 5/8″ layers of drywall 24″ OC R13 Fiberglass One 5/8″ layer of drywall OL 05-1058
40 One 5/8″ layer of drywall 24″ OC R13 Fiberglass One 5/8″ layer of drywall OL 05-1057
44 Two 5/8″ layers of drywall 24″ OC R13 Fiberglass Two 5/8″ layers of drywall OL 05-1059
Wall Assembly: Addition of Sound Isolation Clips and Drywall Furring Channels

STC Source Side Studs Insulation Receive Side Test #
55 5/8″ Gypsum Board attached with 1-5/8″ screws + 7/8″ Drywall Furring Channel @ 24″ OC + WhisperClip attached with 1-5/8″ screws 16″ OC R19 Fiberglass 5/8″Gyspum Board attached with 1-5/8″ screws OL 08-0710
61 Two layers of 5/8″ Gypsum Board attached with 1-5/8″ screws + 7/8″ Drywall Furring Channel @ 24″ OC + WhisperClip attached with 1-5/8″ screws 16″ OC R19 Fiberglass 5/8″Gyspum Board attached with 1-5/8″ screws OL 08-0712
63 Two layers of 5/8″ Gypsum Board attached with 1-5/8″ screws + 7/8″ Drywall Furring Channel @ 24″ OC + WhisperClip attached with 1-5/8″ screws 16″ OC R19 Fiberglass Two layers of 5/8″ Gypsum Board attached with 1-5/8″ screws + OL 08-07

So basically you're looking at a 20 point (50%) improvement from drywall attached to studs to clip and channel.

Interesting that the chart from wikipedia is claiming a similar improvement from wood attached drywall to resilient channel attached. see the bolded 45 to the bolded 59

I'm sure many will step up to shoot holes in this. Based on this research, I'm content to let the drywall guy use his resilient channels.
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Old 02-14-2016, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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reading up on pluses and minuses of a stage (for sound, not looks)

Purpose of stage, side columns, soffit
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