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post #1081 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
This weekend my daughter and I ran :

500 feet of speaker wire to 13 drops (and damn near used it all)
250 feet of ethernet to 5 drops (one from my main hub to my AV closet, two from the av closet to the screen area and two from the AV closet to the projector - why? I have no idea, I was told to... )
50 feet of composite cable for the sub from the AV closet to the screen area
4 25' signal wires from AV closet to projector (HDMI, VGA, Component, Composite)

and now all of this is tucked away into plastic bags (shopping bags) to keep it safe from drywall dust.

I also ordered some clamps for the resiguard tubing but I don't have a lot of faith that I'll be able to secure the damn thing where I want it. I have also given some thought to driving nails into every stud along my wall and then bending them back to support the tube.

I'll take a pic to show what I mean.
How about eye-screws and zip ties?

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Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
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post #1082 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
I'm not sure how Dipoles would work in your setup. I know Triad can convert some of the more recently made models into Bipole with a change to crossover network, but these look like they might be a little old. You might try posting over in the Triad speaker thread and asking there. The price is price is good if they can work.

Nice looking progress BTW.
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post #1083 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
I'm not sure how Dipoles would work in your setup. I know Triad can convert some of the more recently made models into Bipole with a change to crossover network, but these look like they might be a little old. You might try posting over in the Triad speaker thread and asking there. The price is price is good if they can work.
so on the speakers - my current receiver doesn't handle side surrounds but even if they did, I have no idea what I should be shopping for or how I would wire it. Right now I have 13 distinct drops going from the various speaker locations back to the AV closet. How would 9 speakers hook up to a 7.2 receiver?


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Nice looking progress BTW.
SO. MUCH. SPEAKER. WIRE.

Seriously, I can't believe that I estimated/measured 300' and we damn near used the whole 500' box.
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post #1084 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 11:06 AM
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Never underestimate the amount of cable you're going to use. The problem is you never have an exact amount needed at the end of the spool. I'm at 700 feet with another 300 on the way. If I did it again I would buy a huge amount on a single spool.
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post #1085 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
so on the speakers - my current receiver doesn't handle side surrounds but even if they did, I have no idea what I should be shopping for or how I would wire it. Right now I have 13 distinct drops going from the various speaker locations back to the AV closet. How would 9 speakers hook up to a 7.2 receiver?
The two sets of side surrounds get wired together (either series or parallel) to the side surround speakers. The other get wired normally. So in the pic below both LS get wired to Left Surround and both RS get wired to the Right Surround. Ideally, you would have separate processing for each speaker to change the delay with regards to the MLP. That said, there are a lot of nice theaters here that do not have processing for each speaker and they don't report any ill effects.


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post #1086 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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The two sets of side surrounds get wired together (either series or parallel) to the side surround speakers. The other get wired normally. So in the pic below both LS get wired to Left Surround and both RS get wired to the Right Surround. Ideally, you would have separate processing for each speaker to change the delay with regards to the MLP. That said, there are a lot of nice theaters here that do not have processing for each speaker and they don't report any ill effects.

so are the two right side surrounds connecting to the same terminal on the receiver?

Alternatively you're saying I could have run the rear sides directly to the speakers in front of them (series?)

But parallel where two wires connect to one terminal is ok?
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post #1087 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 01:31 PM
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Just make sure you manage your impedance. Hooking in parallel increases impedance, series decreases. Here's a good write up. http://cie-wc.edu/Series_Parallel_9_14.pdf
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post #1088 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Next up.

my wife carried these all upstairs and took them back to home depot.

while I was at work.

#keeper
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post #1089 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 02:01 PM
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You have yourself a keeper.
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post #1090 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
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Just make sure you manage your impedance. Hooking in parallel increases impedance, series decreases. Here's a good write up. http://cie-wc.edu/Series_Parallel_9_14.pdf
Actually parallel decreases impedance and series increases it.

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post #1091 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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quote from my wife on the insulation :

"returned, charged a $2.12 restocking fee to wendy's" lol

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Actually parallel decreases impedance and series increases it.
Sort of glad I'm not ready to deal with this issue at present...

so theoretically if I purchase and install side speakers for the front sides then I might have to buy DIFFERENT speakers when I expand to all 4 sides?
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post #1092 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 03:00 PM
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so theoretically if I purchase and install side speakers for the front sides then I might have to buy DIFFERENT speakers when I expand to all 4 sides?
doesnt matter which speakers you use, just make sure your receiver can handle the total impedance of the speakers

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post #1093 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 03:23 PM
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so theoretically if I purchase and install side speakers for the front sides then I might have to buy DIFFERENT speakers when I expand to all 4 sides?
Don't panic.

When a speaker has low impedance - like 4Ohm - the amp is required to supply more current (measured in Amperes - characterized as a larger or heavier draw) in order to keep up. If the amp is not able to keep up, it can overheat, or produce a distorted signal. Most amps in receivers are good with 8Ohm loads, and okay with 6Ohm loads, but are usually not recommended for 4Ohm loads. This varies with manufacturer, but most common consumer-grade stuff is not characterized as 4Ohm-stable. The cases where this comes into play are when the playback level is elevated, especially for an extended time - the heat builds up.

So let's say you have true 8Ohm speakers that are easy for your amps to drive. Now you hook up two sets to the same amp terminals - just running two red wires into the positive amp output and two black wires into the negative amp output. This results in parallel configuration, and effectively halves the impedance. Now for any given playback level, the amp is required to produce twice as much current as it did before. This puts you back in the area of driving 4Ohm speakers, even though your speakers are 8Ohm individually. With most amps, this wouldn't be recommended. Still, I'm going to to it with mine, at least at first. I'll be keeping an eye on it to see if it seems like a problem. One of the reasons I'm willing to give this a try is that my speakers are so sensitive. 2.83V should get me about 93dB or 94dB of output from each of them. That means that the amp wasn't going to be working hard at all to drive one - I figure it should be okay driving two. The other variable is playback level; I plan to listen close to reference, but you don't plan to listen that loud - that works in your favor when trying to run two speakers on the same amp channel.

The other way to wire the speakers, series, looks a little weird. You would connect the red wire from one speaker (let's call it "Speaker A") to the positive output of the amp. THen the black wire to Speaker A doesn't get connected to the amp - it gets connected to the red wire to "Speaker B." Then the black wire from "Speaker B" gets connected to the negative output of the amp. This means that the amp doesn't have to produce double the current as it did when you wired them in parallel. Instead, the voltage needs to double. That means you have to adjust the trim for those output channels in your processor, and you are more likely to run out of headroom and end up with a clipped, distorted signal. Again, high sensitivity and low playback levels can both mitigate the effects.

What do you do if you find that you have a problem? Well, the trouble isn't necessarily one component or the other; it's the way they interact. So you have to decide. If you want to continue to use all the speakers, you have three options.
1 - replace the speakers with higher impedance, (or perhaps higher sensitivity) versions.
2 - replace the amp with a more powerful version
3 - find a way to split the signal from the processor to two amps and drive the speakers separately

You won't want to consider option three, because it will mean jumping from a moderate home theater receiver to a the minimum a mid-range receiver with pre-outs and then some splitter cables and an extra set of amps. It's a significant jump in equipment cost and complexity.
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post #1094 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 03:58 PM
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If you intend to wire the two sets in series this is important, because you'll need to add the extra speaker wire now. Just run a cable between the left sets and the right sets. You might even have enough left in that box! That way, you can have it ready in case. If you run them parallel you won't need it, but if you do run them series you will have the cable ready.

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post #1095 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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speakers are already wired for parallel - no way I'm redo-ing that now - plus I don't have enough wire left over

photographed all the speaker and can and sconce locations with a tape measure. I think I'm going to move the side speakers - after measuring I think I put them on the wrong side of the 2x4's or 2 of them I did. The ones on the left are 2 inches or so behind the ones on the right. Not that anyone will ever notice or care but I'll know and it will bug me.

This is why you pay other people to do this kind of work so you don't have to live with your own nightmares
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post #1096 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 06:38 PM
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you can change parallel to series at the receiver end of the wires do you need a diagram?
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post #1097 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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you can change parallel to series at the receiver end of the wires do you need a diagram?
Yah maybe. Not getting it.

Anyways. We passed rough inspection today. On to insulation and dry wall.
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post #1098 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 07:00 PM
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post #1099 of 1420 Unread 03-21-2016, 07:38 PM
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I ran series at my amp the same way. Works just fine.

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post #1100 of 1420 Unread 03-22-2016, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
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either way you need higher sensitivity or higher impedance speakers to run 4 side speakers vs 2, right?
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post #1101 of 1420 Unread 03-22-2016, 03:02 AM - Thread Starter
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either a pie cut grommet as posted earlier, a brush style face plate

VGA cable did not fit through brush plate - grrrrr
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post #1102 of 1420 Unread 03-22-2016, 03:04 AM - Thread Starter
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What do I do with this? I feel like I should have insulation in this space.

still looking for opinions on this - my current plan is to get some R11 tear it in half to thin it out and then stuff that up under the wood.

my drywall contractor recommended high density foam board but increasingly I find I don't really like his recommendations.

also do I need to quiet putty all of the elec boxes and sconces in the room? I can pick those up on the way home tomorrow.
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post #1103 of 1420 Unread 03-22-2016, 06:33 AM
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rigid foam transmits vibration and does not absorb sound.
yes putty pads every hole in the dywall.

on that duct area, I think I would cut some small pieces of fluffy that you can stuff between the frame and the metal duct work but be sure it isn't compressed too much. you want it to be springy not rigid. Then I would cut pieces of 2 inch thick denim insulation for each space between the framing members, You will have to hold it in place with something until you get the drywall up. The cheapest thing would be duct tape stapled to the framing and slinging under each piece.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/UltraTouc...6482/202710055

If the ducts currently vibrate and give off sound I would slap some Dynamat Extreme or similiar on the sheet metal first. We used this product at the BrolicBeast project

http://www.amazon.com/KnuKonceptz-Kn...dp_o_pC_nS_ttl

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post #1104 of 1420 Unread 03-22-2016, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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so this looks pretty good - I am thinking I don't need the fluffy underneath if I use this?

on the ducts I guess I never really cared about the duct noise when the basement was wide open - it was more the furnace blowing behind me that was aggravating. That should be largely silenced by the split stud wall now.

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post #1105 of 1420 Unread 03-22-2016, 08:10 AM
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I quieted my furnace by putting that stuff on the outside surfaces.
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post #1106 of 1420 Unread 03-22-2016, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Any advice on insulating around these ducts?

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post #1107 of 1420 Unread 03-22-2016, 07:15 PM
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there are two schools of thought. One is just fill the joist space with insulation surrounding the duct. The other is to step it up by using a duct wrap and then surrounding with insulation.
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post #1108 of 1420 Unread 03-22-2016, 10:23 PM
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you can change parallel to series at the receiver end of the wires do you need a diagram?
Of course you are right--thanks for the correction/addition.

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post #1109 of 1420 Unread 03-23-2016, 02:38 AM - Thread Starter
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there are two schools of thought. One is just fill the joist space with insulation surrounding the duct. The other is to step it up by using a duct wrap and then surrounding with insulation.
but like cut it as best I can to fit, not smash it right?
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post #1110 of 1420 Unread 03-23-2016, 03:14 AM
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