Swerve's 9.2 Media room and Full Bar build - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 83 Old 10-11-2013, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Rebuilt my TV wall mount niche to isolate it from the exterior wall framing in behind. Previously, I had built it without considering all the coupling I created between the inner and outer walls that surely would have resulted in a major flanking path.

Here's the niche before:



For my new design, with some help from Ted, I decided to laminate 2x4s and some 1/2" MDF scrap to create a 3" niche, with 2x6s in the back verticals for a little more strength. Here are the first assemblies:

AppleMark


As I was satisfied that the niche was at the right height, I cut out the front 2x4 resulting in my new 'engineered' studs:

AppleMark

I then mocked up the TV wall mount:

AppleMark

and proceeded to finish up niche framing, electrical, and conduit runs:

AppleMark

AppleMark

It's quite rigid, and decoupled from the outside framing. It's only connected at the top and bottom plates just like the other studs. Problem solved.


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post #62 of 83 Old 10-14-2013, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Laid down subfloor this past weekend. I went with Barricade subfloor tiles for the insulation benefit plus it doesn't clickity clack like I've heard the DriCore subfloor tiles can if you don't shim them properly in low spots. Luckily I was able to catch them on sale for $5 each versus the regular $7.19.

Feels like some progress was made!

AppleMark

AppleMark

And after about 6 hours, all 400 sq ft were down.

AppleMark

Quite an easy job really!


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post #63 of 83 Old 10-16-2013, 12:08 PM
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Looks great!

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post #64 of 83 Old 11-03-2013, 12:02 AM
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Any updates?

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post #65 of 83 Old 11-15-2013, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Any updates?
Been delayed by fun stuff in life. This room's budget just disappeared to a main bath Reno so it's going to be tough here on out I think. In the bath I did 1/2" DD&GG the wall shared with the master bedroom. Only hiccup was the boarders used 'easy lite' drywall. Argh. It was all done while I was at work so there's no going back now. You have to watch every detail or it will go sideways and quick.

I'm going to be working on my in wall AV rack next while I mull over my plan for decoupling my ceiling behind the recessed motorized screen.

I can't decide whether to keep the perpendicular orientation of clips and channel or if I should clip and channel in parallel with the joists here to use less clips and better isolate. I'd have to run another joist down the middle but thats no biggie. Here's the joist cavity where the screen will be in a backer box as far forward as I can or left in this pic:

7uja7e9e.jpg


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post #66 of 83 Old 11-21-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swervepf View Post


I can't decide whether to keep the perpendicular orientation of clips and channel with the joists or if I should clip and channel in parallel here to use less clips and better isolate. I'd have to run another joist down the middle but that's no biggie. Here's the joist cavity where the screen will be in a backer box as far forward as I can or left in this pic:

7uja7e9e.jpg

Trying to decide how to solve my ceiling clipping dilemma behind the screen opening. In front of the screen is ~18' that's all clipped and channeled perpendicular to the joists. Here's mockups of the 2 options I think I have.

Legend:
Blue - outline of recessed motorized screen
Mustard yellow - new joist
Red - clips
Grey - hat channel

1- Keep clips and channels orientation the same; perpendicular to joists. Con is that I will use a lot of clips for a small portion of ceiling and not decouple very well.



2 - Run clips and channels parallel with the joists. Con is that the 2 channels will only be 6-8" apart... not exactly the recommended 24". I don't know if there are any other cons with this approach.



Which way should I go? I'm leaning towards option 2 since it at least uses less clips and thus should better decouple.

Any other suggestions?


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post #67 of 83 Old 11-21-2013, 02:01 PM
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I would do #2 don't worry about two channels 6-8 inches apart. The fact that it takes fewer clips means that it would be preferred from an isolation viewpoint

Are you building some kind of isolated backer box for the screen housing? I would build and install that at the same time as you work on the clips and channel, you want to make sure it fits. IB3 clips to hold it up?
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post #68 of 83 Old 11-21-2013, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Are you building some kind of isolated backer box for the screen housing?

Thanks, BIG. Yes, I am. I'm basically going to repeat what I've done for my pot lights, but with thicker OSB. I'm going to use 5/8 OSB, GG, and 5/8 drywall to create a backer box to fit the screen housing into, creating a ~100 lb assembly. I emailed Ted and he suggested 2 65lb cable isolators, and stabilize with IB-3 brackets, which I'm thinking I'll use 2; 1 on each end. I suppose this would attach to the joists, or blocks between 2 joists for a total of 4 attachment points between the assembly and the joist framing.

I was thinking of taking it another step further from a decoupling perspective. I was thinking of 2 x 6 blocking between the 2 joists with 4 IB-3 brackets on each block; 2 on each end, where the blocks don't touch the joists to decouple the blocks from the joists. Then, I'd hang the screen backer box assembly from these blocks with the cable isolators and stabilize to the blocks with the 2 IB-3 brackets. So, vibration would travel from the backer box, to what's holding the load- 2 cable isolators, then onto 8 IB-3s. Is this plan sound? Have another suggestion? Thanks in advance.


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post #69 of 83 Old 11-22-2013, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I would build and install that at the same time as you work on the clips and channel, you want to make sure it fits. IB3 clips to hold it up?

Oops! Just realized I was calling the IB-3 brackets IB-1s... so have revised my post; sorry BIG. But, yes, IB-3 brackets in combination with cable isolators as described above. What do you think?


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post #70 of 83 Old 02-05-2014, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Concerned about my electrical. I just read a thread here talking about ground loop issues that can occur when Projectors and TVs are plugged into separate circuits from the main AV rack:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1515778/long-hdmi-cable-rec-for-in-wall-run#post_24311872

My AV rack has 1 dedicated 15A circuit on my breaker panel that will power my receiver, bluray player, etc.
My Projector and TV will plug into a separate 2nd circuit.
I will be connecting my receiver to the TV and projectors with Monoprice RedMere HDMI cables.

Will I have a ground loop issue and if so, how can I avoid this?


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post #71 of 83 Old 02-05-2014, 03:41 PM
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I always do a single common ground bar at the AV rack. A separate small power panel is good. Feed the AC power to the projector/TV from the AV rack, with all the grounds tied to the common ground bar in the AV rack. Short, low resistance grounds are the key to avoiding ground loops.


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post #72 of 83 Old 02-05-2014, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swervepf View Post

Thanks! I have a cat6 cable for the projector, but haven't run it simply because the Panny PT-AR100U I'm thinking I'll get doesn't have a CAT6 jack. If, when the time comes, I go with another projector, or later on replace it with a projector that does have a cat6 jack, I'll feed it through the 2" conduit, which for now only will house a single HDMI.
If you haven't closed up your walls then I'd do dual HDMIs to both your TV and projector (I've already had one of my in-wall ones fail for no apparent reason) plus dual cat 6 to your screen wall and projector, you don't even need to terminate the cables as you're not planning on using them yet but it's so much easier to run the cables now (even with conduits) than after you've put up your drywall.
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post #73 of 83 Old 02-06-2014, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBon View Post

I always do a single common ground bar at the AV rack. A separate small power panel is good. Feed the AC power to the projector/TV from the AV rack, with all the grounds tied to the common ground bar in the AV rack. Short, low resistance grounds are the key to avoiding ground loops.

I checked the junction box in my closet and see that the grounds for both the AV rack circuit and TV/projector circuit are tied together. The hot and neutrals for the 2 are separate though, right back to the panel. I hope this will be sufficient.


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post #74 of 83 Old 05-15-2014, 04:16 AM
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post #75 of 83 Old 06-28-2014, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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AV rack got some attention finally. It's simple but holds the little equipment I'll be putting in the room. It'll be recessed flush in a wall within the bar, thus not visible from the seating.

The other side of this wall is the utility closet where the furnace and hot water tank are. I actually had to move my hot water tank around in the closet to make some room for the rack, but still wasn't enough, so I had to notch out a corner of the rack to wrap around the hot water tank so that both could fit.

First thing I did was run a 15A circuit mount 2 3 gang boxes for a total of 12 outlets, which still isn't enough really.


Then I drywalled the inside of the utility closet and put a few lbs of duct seal over the electrical boxes


Since the 3' tall rack is raised up the wall to eye level, I built a stand to hold it up so that the AV rack and stand are decoupled from the framing.


Gave it a few coats of black rattle can, added 2 shelves for some stuff that won't go on display such as the whole home DVR with its noisy fans and hard drives. The stand is secured to the framing with IB-3 brackets for a bit of isolation. I also added some rubber bumpers to the feet to isolate it from the slab.


Then I worked on hacking up an old AV stand I bought on craigslist for $20. It's already got a black vinyl woodgrain look to it, has all the holes drilled for adjustable shelves, so saved me a bunch of work on starting from scratch. I basically disassembled it, cut it in half on my table saw and reassembled one half of it. I added GG and drywall for mass and damping and here's what it looked like waiting for GG to dry over 2 days.


Here it is mocked up in place looking from behind.


Access to the back is important so I was able to salvage what was one of the front doors and it's hinges and use it now as a back door, accessible from within the utility closet. Due to the notch to fit around the hot water tank, I had to remove the lower hinge, cut the door, and relocate the hinge higher up the door. I used the cut off portion of the door, after removing the hinge, as a template for drilling new holes for the hinge.


Here it is with modified back door installed.



Then I added a 1" wide door stop all around the perimeter as well as some foam gasket for a nice seal.

Lastly, I drilled 2 2" holes, 1 through the top, the other through the bottom to run in all the speaker cable, HDMI, power, etc. I then sleeved the holes with some 2" in wall vacuum tubing left over from the conduit runs, secured with acoustic sealant. I figure I'll use some non drying/hardening plasticine to plug up any gap left in each hole after all the cables are run.



Here it is finished in place, awaiting drywall, with a couple AVRs in just to see what it will eventually look like in the end.
I'll be adding another amp, PS3, and an Apple TV to the stand so it'll be full already.




on a slightly different note, I don't like this new version of the forum for photos. Maybe I'm missing something, but the only way I could upload photos was through the Insert Image Icon, which then only presented a dialog box for a url. I had to use this in conjunction with 'manage attachments'- not fun; takes forever to upload, no small, medium, large options.
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Last edited by Swervepf; 07-03-2014 at 10:41 PM. Reason: fix photos
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post #76 of 83 Old 07-03-2014, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I opened up my screen finally after having it sit in the box on the floor for over 6 months. Just my luck- it's missing a part. The Monoprice (and Grandview) in-ceiling recessed motorized screens that are smaller than 120" come with 2 "baffles"; a large one and a small one that act as trim over the opening where the screens lowers through. The large one was in the box, but not the small "baffle". The packaging here reveals where the small trim should be, but the cutout in the foam wasn't even removed nor the part included. Not happy.



I've got an RMA open with Monoprice now to get the part I'm missing.
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post #77 of 83 Old 07-05-2014, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Building my screen backer box. The plan was to create a 5/8 OSB, GG, and 5/8 drywall sandwich, but my local Home Depot doesn't carry 5/8 OSB, only 3/8 and 7/16. So I decided to go 3/8 OSB, GG, 3/OSB, GG, 5/8 drywall instead. A little more mass and damping...

I had them rip the OSB down to the widths I needed- 12" for the top of the box, 6" for the sides, and 1 1/2" for flanges that will receive acoustic sealant to bond and seal the box to the back of the ceiling drywall.

I started off with laminating the double 3/8 OSB with GG and a bead of construction adhesive, PL400, around the perimeter to form the top of the backer box. The box is 115" long, so the panels are made of a full 8' length of OSB plus another 19" on the end. I staggered the lengths of the OSB so there are seams on each end of the laminated panels.



Then I clamped the assembly together, repeated the same process for the side panels, and let it all dry a bit overnight.



I used PL400 to glue the side panels to the top panel, clamped, and then brad nailed it all together:





This completes the outer OSB shell of double 3/8 and GG, but still needs more mass, damping, and most importantly, structural strength. I started with adding more GG and 5/8 drywall to the top of the box, after which I let it dry overnight with some weight on it:



Then I added some more GG and 5/8 drywall to the sides and ends of the box, as well as inserted some 9.5' long 2x4s along the lengths of the box and screwed through the OSB into the 2x4s for structural strength.



Lastly, I added some 5/8 plywood as end caps, screwed into the 2x4s inside for some extra structural strength. Also added 1 1/2" wide 3/8 OSB on the face of the box to create a nice fat surface for it seal up to the backside of the ceiling drywall with a thick bead of acoustical sealant.

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Last edited by Swervepf; 07-14-2014 at 10:28 PM.
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post #78 of 83 Old 07-14-2014, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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One heavy backer box is now complete, so I just had to weigh it. More importantly, I need to know the weight of the assembly with the screen.

So here's the weight of just the screen backer box:



Yup, a bathroom scale. And here's the weight of the backer box with the screen in it:



168 lbs!


The hardware I'll be using to suspend the box from the joists will be screwed through the layer of 5/8 plywood, 2 layers of 3/8 OSB and then into the ends of the 2x4s so I'm thinking this should be sufficient for structure of the box itself. I'm not sure what the hardware will be yet. Perhaps eyelet and S hooks sturdy enough for the weight, with the isolators in the middle.

Considering the assembly weighs 168 lbs, I'll be using 4 CI-65 cable isolators from soundproofingcompany.com to suspend the backer box and screen assembly from the joists to achieve decoupling. The data sheet from Studco says to increase the load by 10-20% so lets say it's 200 lbs. The isolators are rated for 65 lbs. each, so max load is 260 lbs for 4 isolators.
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Last edited by Swervepf; 07-21-2014 at 09:01 AM.
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post #79 of 83 Old 07-15-2014, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swervepf View Post
One heavy backer box is now complete, so I just had to weigh it. More importantly, I need to know the weight of the assembly with the screen.

So here's the weight of just the screen backer box:



Yup, a bathroom scale. And here's the weight of the backer box with the screen in it:



168 lbs!


The hardware I'll be using to suspend the box from the joists will be screwed through the layer of 5/8 plywood, 2 layers of 3/8 OSB and then into the ends of the 2x4s so I'm thinking this should be sufficient for structure of the box itself. I'm not sure what the hardware will be yet. Perhaps eyelet and S hooks sturdy enough for the weight, with the isolators in the middle.

Considering the assembly weighs 168 lbs, I'll be using 4 CI-65 cable isolators from soundproofingcompany.com to suspend the backer box and screen assembly from the joists to achieve decoupling. The data sheet from Studco says to increase the load by 10-20% so lets say it's 200 lbs. The isolators are rated for 65 lbs. each, so max load is 260 lbs for 4 isolators.
here's a question to the masses.
is it necessary to double layer the backer boxes?
I know its best, but how much less effective is a single 5/8 layer of plywood (as example)?

if the method above is 100%
is a single layer 70%? 80%?

just wondering. I have limited space in my floor joists and am doing single layered backer boxes.

sorry for highjacking the thread.
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post #80 of 83 Old 07-21-2014, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjinc View Post
here's a question to the masses.
is it necessary to double layer the backer boxes?
I know its best, but how much less effective is a single 5/8 layer of plywood (as example)?

if the method above is 100%
is a single layer 70%? 80%?

just wondering. I have limited space in my floor joists and am doing single layered backer boxes.

sorry for highjacking the thread.
It's good that you're building a backer box of any sort as some just don't, who then post in the Regrets sticky after the fact.

It's not necessary to double layer the boxes, but it's only a little more effort to do so, so worth doing IMO. The problem with not doing the second layer is that you're not only losing mass, but there also won't be any damping in that box- 2 major factors to soundproofing. Also, note that plywood is less dense than OSB, so I'd say you'd benefit from adding some more mass. Use OSB instead of plywood if you haven't started yet.

In my case, my joists were 7 1/4", where after IB-1 clips and channel were in place (1 1/4 depth) gave me 8 1/2"- enough room to build backer boxes over HALO IC cans. Note- if you're building backer boxes, you don't need IC rated cans, and can/should use smaller retrofit cans, as recommended by BIG and others here. I unfortunately bought my HALO boxes before understanding the need for backer boxes so was stuck working with them. The other benefit of retrofit cans, is that boring the hole in the drywall for installation of the can lights after the ceiling drywall is up is easier, than what I'm facing now with drilling the holes in the drywall pre hanging... for both layers. Build a long and wide backer box, yielding you greater freedom to measure and line up the holes across the ceiling, then drill out the holes and slip in the cans. Check out BIGmouthinDC's posts on backer boxes for what those look like:

Soundproof Recessed Light Boxes

and

Basement suite reno! Please Help! Pot Light Backer box construction


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post #81 of 83 Old 07-23-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Swervepf View Post
It's good that you're building a backer box of any sort as some just don't, who then post in the Regrets sticky after the fact.

It's not necessary to double layer the boxes, but it's only a little more effort to do so, so worth doing IMO. The problem with not doing the second layer is that you're not only losing mass, but there also won't be any damping in that box- 2 major factors to soundproofing. Also, note that plywood is less dense than OSB, so I'd say you'd benefit from adding some more mass. Use OSB instead of plywood if you haven't started yet.

In my case, my joists were 7 1/4", where after IB-1 clips and channel were in place (1 1/4 depth) gave me 8 1/2"- enough room to build backer boxes over HALO IC cans. Note- if you're building backer boxes, you don't need IC rated cans, and can/should use smaller retrofit cans, as recommended by BIG and others here. I unfortunately bought my HALO boxes before understanding the need for backer boxes so was stuck working with them. The other benefit of retrofit cans, is that boring the hole in the drywall for installation of the can lights after the ceiling drywall is up is easier, than what I'm facing now with drilling the holes in the drywall pre hanging... for both layers. Build a long and wide backer box, yielding you greater freedom to measure and line up the holes across the ceiling, then drill out the holes and slip in the cans. Check out BIGmouthinDC's posts on backer boxes for what those look like:

Soundproof Recessed Light Boxes

and

Basement suite reno! Please Help! Pot Light Backer box construction
Here's what I did.
i don't think I have room for multiple layers, however I will definitely do 2 for the in-ceiling speakers (maybe 3)
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Last edited by jjinc; 07-23-2014 at 04:47 PM.
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post #82 of 83 Old 07-24-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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it looks like you've got about 2 inches of clearance between the top of the box and the subfloor above, so lots of room for a double layer and GG box. When mine went up, there was only about 3/4" or so between the box and the underside of the subfloor above.

Something to consider with the box as it is now- the best design (in the links to BIGs boxes I linked previously) uses cement board on the inside layer to handle heat from hot bulbs like halogens, but also for fire separation between floors in order to meet code requirements, pass inspection, etc. I used an inferior design of a Firecode Type X 5/8 inside layer instead only because it's easier to cut and work with, I have IC cans, and want to use LEDs, so still achieve minimum fire separation, and won't have the heat from the bulbs. Also, you'd benefit from a wider flange on the face of the box than the edge fo the 5/8 ply in order to apply more acoustical sealant to it so it can seal really well to the back of the first layer of ceiling drywall. It's got to be airtight.

Something to note about pot lights and perforations in the ceiling DDGG shell- the smaller the hole, the less sound enters the backer box and transfers upstairs. Avoid 6" like the plague, 4" is better, 3" even better...

I see you're investing in what looks like Genie Clips, and those decoupling brackets, putting in the extra effort to recess your channels within joists to gain ceiling height, etc. which is all great, but the box right now appears to me like the weak link in your soundproofing attempts.


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Last edited by Swervepf; 07-24-2014 at 08:59 AM.
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post #83 of 83 Old 07-24-2014, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swervepf View Post
it looks like you've got about 2 inches of clearance between the top of the box and the subfloor above, so lots of room for a double layer and GG box. When mine went up, there was only about 3/4" or so between the box and the underside of the subfloor above.

Something to consider with the box as it is now- the best design (in the links to BIGs boxes I linked previously) uses cement board on the inside layer to handle heat from hot bulbs like halogens, but also for fire separation between floors in order to meet code requirements, pass inspection, etc. I used an inferior design of a Firecode Type X 5/8 inside layer instead only because it's easier to cut and work with, I have IC cans, and want to use LEDs, so still achieve minimum fire separation, and won't have the heat from the bulbs. Also, you'd benefit from a wider flange on the face of the box than the edge fo the 5/8 ply in order to apply more acoustical sealant to it so it can seal really well to the back of the first layer of ceiling drywall. It's got to be airtight.

Something to note about pot lights and perforations in the ceiling DDGG shell- the smaller the hole, the less sound enters the backer box and transfers upstairs. Avoid 6" like the plague, 4" is better, 3" even better...

I see you're investing in what looks like Genie Clips, and those decoupling brackets, putting in the extra effort to recess your channels within joists to gain ceiling height, etc. which is all great, but the box right now appears to me like the weak link in your soundproofing attempts.
thanks for the advice.I really appreciate it. I think i'll do the extra effort to double up the boxes

I think I'll start a new thread, i have a few more questions about diff parts of my bsmt and soundproofing, so I don't hijack yours.
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