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post #1 of 20 Old 04-26-2013, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is my build thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1468993/the-retirment-dream-home-theater
My house will be spray foam insulation in the rafters (attic) and also under my Theater since I am over the garage. I will put R13 in theater walls and R19 directly above for sound proofing. My space will be 18x23 after I get the walls up with IB1-Clips and decoupled rear wall. 10' ceiling in the front with 7' knee walls (18x14) and 9' in the rear with 6' knee walls (18x9).

I meet with the builder and the HVAC guy today. They have 4 ea 6" ducts running to the theater. Once I explained that I want to have my sound proof room and will be building Soffits to run the supply line and will need a return. I also said I may not want to heat and cool the room 24 hours 7 days a week and started discussing pricing for the zone control.

He said the best way to do what I want is to put in a ductless system from Mitsubishi which would probably run me about $2100. He said the benefit is that I can run it anytime I like and the recovery from off to on is really quick. Second benefit is that I now do not have to make 5 huge holes in my sound proof shell which I will then have to run in the soffits. I stated I had split units in Hawaii and the apt I am in now, they are loud and I do not like them. He claims they are really quiet he has one in his office and claims you do not know it is on. I looked on line and they claim from 19-22db. Does anyone know what that means noise wise. He claims that with the baffles in the zoned system when it is scaling back the air flow that it will be louder than the duct less.


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post #2 of 20 Old 04-26-2013, 04:27 PM
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I think a ductless system is fine to heat & cool the room but, you're still going to need fresh air into the room and take the stale air out. I'm sure someone will chime in.
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post #3 of 20 Old 04-26-2013, 06:27 PM
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Fresh air is critical. I put a dead vent system in for air exchange with an adjacent room. I also have a minisplit as I feared I'd need to cool the theater if it was a packed house. Turns out the dead vent alone is sufficient (in a basement in the Midwest) year-round.

Here's a link to the idea laid out by the Soundproofing Company:
http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/the-dead-vent/

Ted was extremely helpful in doing a modified design with me, as I came to the realization this was needed after we were well into construction. The key is getting the supply and return as far apart as possible in the room. My room is entirely covered in GOM so I didn't even bother with grates, I just left open flex duct in the front ceiling soffit for the return and a rear false column for the supply. So far no significant dust accumulation as I'd feared.
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post #4 of 20 Old 04-26-2013, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cw5billwade View Post

I stated I had split units in Hawaii and the apt I am in now, they are loud and I do not like them. He claims they are really quiet he has one in his office and claims you do not know it is on. I looked on line and they claim from 19-22db. Does anyone know what that means noise wise. He claims that with the baffles in the zoned system when it is scaling back the air flow that it will be louder than the duct less.

Did you have a split or a mini-split? The splits they put in condos and apartments can be obnoxiously loud. It's usually forced air for the entire space with the air handler stuck in a closet. I had a condo in Chicago with one, and I couldn't make out dialog on TV when it came on. I worked in HK a couple years ago and my apartment there had a minisplit. It was great in comparison. I could hear it if I listened for it, but it was quiet and unobtrusive. I came back thinking I should do my whole house with them, but it was too expensive.

I was told the same thing about the noise with zoning. They said a dedicated unit would be quietest, but was overkill. I considered the Mits but it was too expensive for the number of rooms I had. Their recommendation was to just run parallel supply & return lines to the theater. I haven't finished the room yet, so I don't know how good that advice was. They put my master bed & bath on a 2nd zone off the 2nd floor unit, but when I said low noise was top priority for the theater, they said then don't zone (for the same reason you were given).

 

 

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post #5 of 20 Old 04-27-2013, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Matt And Rabident hopefully someone with The Mitsubishi Mr. Slim will add their comments


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post #6 of 20 Old 04-27-2013, 04:03 PM
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I've been in two locat HTs that had Mr Slim units on the back walls of the theaters, one an attic build the other a basement project. Mr slim units are quieter than many projectors but without any sound in the theater if you sit and listen you can hear it turn on. I don't think either owner regrets their decision.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/850462/flaming-oak-cinema-a-cathan-production/0_40
http://www.avsforum.com/t/756264/the-cinemabuilder-attic-theater-construction-thread/0_40

QueenDVD2 put a mini split in her space but I've never been there. It was a different brand

http://www.avsforum.com/t/995072/queens-future-ht/0_40

Don't forget that the in theater unit passes hot air over cool coils and that generates condensation that must be pumped away somewhere.


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post #7 of 20 Old 04-29-2013, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks Big I will take a look


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post #8 of 20 Old 04-29-2013, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
My house will be spray foam insulation in the rafters (attic) and also under my Theater since I am over the garage. I will put R13 in theater walls and R19 directly above for sound proofing

I thought that from an overall insulation perspective, you would do one or the other in the attic. Either the rafters OR right on top of the ceiling, in between the joists. I thought that doing both would trap air in the attic space and cause condensation issues. I would think that for a "sound proofed ceiling" you would want to do the ceiling and NOT the rafters.

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post #9 of 20 Old 04-30-2013, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post

I thought that from an overall insulation perspective, you would do one or the other in the attic. Either the rafters OR right on top of the ceiling, in between the joists. I thought that doing both would trap air in the attic space and cause condensation issues. I would think that for a "sound proofed ceiling" you would want to do the ceiling and NOT the rafters.
the only place where there will be both is over the theater. the rest of the 2nd floor will not have anything in the ceiling.


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post #10 of 20 Old 04-30-2013, 08:23 AM
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I don't think a spray foamed attic will have condensation issues. With back of the roof decking sprayed, the attic essentially becomes conditioned space, so you shouldn't have much of a temperature differential between the attic and the room. If you are concerned at all, you can use unfaced batts to allow vapor transmission through the insulation.

For what it's worth, I'd still vote for a zoned system as you will need to put holes in your soundproofing to get fresh air in one way or another. Might as well us it to bring in cool fresh air.

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post #11 of 20 Old 04-30-2013, 12:20 PM
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I second the idea of the zoned system. From a resale standpoint I think a buyer would much rather have a zoned system than a split.

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post #12 of 20 Old 05-01-2013, 09:37 AM
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Mr. Slim's are audible but super quiet. My SIM2 projector is louder than the Mr. Slim.

A zoned system is workable but has drawbacks:
- your theater likely requires way less cooling than the rest of your house. What happens to the excess air when only your theater is calling for cooling?
- zoned system requires more technical savvy from your HVAC crew. A lot of HVAC people around where I live are clueless.
- it is easier to sound isolate a dedicated system, whether mini-split or full split
- you can get ducted mini-splits (Mitsubishi make one) which can include fresh air and are dead silent


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post #13 of 20 Old 04-22-2014, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmatt99 View Post

Fresh air is critical. I put a dead vent system in for air exchange with an adjacent room. I also have a minisplit as I feared I'd need to cool the theater if it was a packed house. Turns out the dead vent alone is sufficient (in a basement in the Midwest) year-round.

Here's a link to the idea laid out by the Soundproofing Company:
http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/the-dead-vent/

Ted was extremely helpful in doing a modified design with me, as I came to the realization this was needed after we were well into construction. The key is getting the supply and return as far apart as possible in the room. My room is entirely covered in GOM so I didn't even bother with grates, I just left open flex duct in the front ceiling soffit for the return and a rear false column for the supply. So far no significant dust accumulation as I'd feared.

 

I know this is a somewhat old post, but hope you are still active!  I live in the Cincinnati area, and am in the process of finishing my basement and I was initially thinking I didn't need HVAC, but then heard some concerns about the 'packed house' body/ equipment heat.    My equipment (other than projector of course!) will be in a connected, but different room.   So, based on your statement, it sounds like you rarely feel a great need for the AC to run?    I don't plan on very often having many people in my room (myself, wife, 2 kids, maybe a few of their friends), and rarely, having then a larger gathering.   My room will be ~ 23' x 17 1/2' with almost 9' ceilings.   

 

Also for your Dead Vent, were you pumping air INTO the theater or "Out Of" the theater?   Ted's dead vent design illustrated 'out of' but states it can be used for into or out of.   I think I could build a dead-vent in the same room I plan to use for the equipment.    If I did add an Mr. Slim type thing, that would likely be on the opposite side of the theater, which sounds like a good fit.


Thanks!

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post #14 of 20 Old 04-22-2014, 02:20 PM
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to circulate the kind of volume you need, you should power both the in and out. Be mindful of the velocity of the air at the grill faces unless you want a lot of air noise in your theater. 250 ft per minute or less. be sure the motors are as far away from the theater as possible and locate the in and out as far apart as possible to get a good mix of the outside air. I've seen them too close and the result was a short circuit and the air between the two was warm while the rest of the basement was cool.


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post #15 of 20 Old 04-30-2014, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kmhvball View Post

I know this is a somewhat old post, but hope you are still active!  I live in the Cincinnati area, and am in the process of finishing my basement and I was initially thinking I didn't need HVAC, but then heard some concerns about the 'packed house' body/ equipment heat.    My equipment (other than projector of course!) will be in a connected, but different room.   So, based on your statement, it sounds like you rarely feel a great need for the AC to run?    I don't plan on very often having many people in my room (myself, wife, 2 kids, maybe a few of their friends), and rarely, having then a larger gathering.   My room will be ~ 23' x 17 1/2' with almost 9' ceilings.   

Also for your Dead Vent, were you pumping air INTO the theater or "Out Of" the theater?   Ted's dead vent design illustrated 'out of' but states it can be used for into or out of.   I think I could build a dead-vent in the same room I plan to use for the equipment.    If I did add an Mr. Slim type thing, that would likely be on the opposite side of the theater, which sounds like a good fit.

We hardly ever need to use the cooling feature of the Mr. Slim. If anything, it's often very cool in the room and I'll use it to bring the room to a warmer temp. The dead vent pretty quickly brings in air from the adjacent room in the basement to get to a comfortable temp. I think the big difference is having all electronics barring the projector outside of the room.

I'll put up some pics of the dead vent below. It's essentially two stacked and isolated vents, one on top of the other, in the same wall just outside the theater doorway. I believe we did the inflow to the front of the theater into the false soffit just in front of the screen, and outflow in a rear false column. Both are fabric covered. I didn't use a diffusor, but the front inflow has a wide funneled opening as you can see in the pics. For the rear, the duct material was just left open behind the fabric. There is a fan for each flex-duct, and the HVAC guy made sure the fan speeds matched. They are supposed to be pretty quiet, but they are actually pretty noisy. We positioned the fans so that you don't hear them at all in the theater, but they are easily heard in the adjacent basement room.

Here is a view of the back of the room, you can see the inflow duct at the back and running to the front screen-right side of the room.
DSC_6168 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

Side view of the screen-right wall.
DSC_6171 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

Framing for the dead vent just outside the room.
DSC_6177 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

View of dead vent through the theater doorway, left rear column, and soffit.
DSC_6178 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

Equipment closet on the left. All wiring was fed through the soundproofed wall to the false soffit through one hole, then puttied, conduit run as well for additional wiring needs.
DSC_6180 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

Ductless heating/cooling LG unit.
DSC_6187 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

Flex-duct punched through the wall.
DSC_6192 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

Upper and lower dead vents. All walls as well as the dividing partial wall were 5/8 DD with GG. Not that fans were mounted on the side facing away from the theater room.
DSC_6193 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr
DSC_6194 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr
DSC_6195 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

Couple of the finished room. I need to redo these!
DSC_9205 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr
DSC_9207 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr
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post #16 of 20 Old 04-30-2014, 07:40 AM
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I helped my dad put a few of these in his house last year, installation was pretty straightforward considering his house was 50 years old and it was a retro fit. They are not loud at all, I'll take a pic and SPL meter it later when I go over there if you want. It's quieter than my parents noisy noise floor for sure. My dad's living room is 30x18 with cathedral peak celing, lots of big windows, and a second floor loft looking down into the room. It's not an easy room to cool and they do pretty well IMO.

Two zones is best if you can; there will be times you don't want to cool it and other times when you'll need it big time if the room is full of people. Independent zone is best for sure.

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I helped my dad put a few of these in his house last year, installation was pretty straightforward considering his house was 50 years old and it was a retro fit. They are not loud at all, I'll take a pic and SPL meter it later when I go over there if you want. It's quieter than my parents noisy noise floor for sure. My dad's living room is 30x18 with cathedral peak celing, lots of big windows, and a second floor loft looking down into the room. It's not an easy room to cool and they do pretty well IMO.

Two zones is best if you can; there will be times you don't want to cool it and other times when you'll need it big time if the room is full of people. Independent zone is best for sure.


I am fairly 'handy' would you consider this a 'DIY' type of deal?  I am certainly very capable of running the electric, but wasn't sure what kind of 'ducting' was needed and if that was easy or difficult.


Thanks!

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post #18 of 20 Old 04-30-2014, 08:12 AM
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Thanks for the response... Good to know about the heating... I was thinking if I did it, to maybe go with just an AC unit, I will definitely be a bit more open minded when the HVAC place comes out tonight.

 

What kind of theater seating do you have?  In the front row, are those 'arms' folded up?  I have been debating a 'love seat' vs individual seats, and a fold up arm design would be ideal.

 

Other than the 'corners' issue, did you find the Fabricmate tracks fairly easy to use?


Thanks!

Kevin


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post #19 of 20 Old 04-30-2014, 08:42 AM
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Thanks for the response... Good to know about the heating... I was thinking if I did it, to maybe go with just an AC unit, I will definitely be a bit more open minded when the HVAC place comes out tonight.

What kind of theater seating do you have?  In the front row, are those 'arms' folded up?  I have been debating a 'love seat' vs individual seats, and a fold up arm design would be ideal.

Other than the 'corners' issue, did you find the Fabricmate tracks fairly easy to use?

Definitely get the unit with heating and cooling if you're going to do it at all. If you don't heat your basement much in the winter, I suspect you'd run into a "too cold" theater room at times given the only heat generation will come from people and the PJ. It would be a shame to have such a nice room, but not see much use due to temp issues you could have controlled.

Seating is by Fortress. You'll need someone to help you amputate your arm and leg, as that's about what it cost. Seriously, it's the most expensive part of the theater, but they are quite comfortable, rock solid, and have stood up to kid movie watching sessions while still looking like new.

I have mixed feelings about the Fabricmate. I did it in conjunction with a trim contractor, and my primary purpose was to minimize reflections and be able to hide generically placed rule of thumb acoustic treatements. The false soffits were a HUGE pain in the rear. Once the track was up, fabric installation was easy after a few goes at it, except at corners. If I were to do it again, I'd do a mix of fabric panels and such ala BIGmouthinDC. My one regret is that the room is a bit overdeadened in the HF region and doesn't have quite the spaciousness you'd expect in a room that size. The flipside is that well-mixed 5.1 and 7.1 tracks are amazing as the reflections are very well controlled, and bass is awesome in this room. For music, I actually hate listening in 2-channel mode in that room and virtually always just have the Anthem AVR convert music to multichannel to get the ambient feeling back.
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post #20 of 20 Old 04-30-2014, 08:52 AM
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I am fairly 'handy' would you consider this a 'DIY' type of deal?  I am certainly very capable of running the electric, but wasn't sure what kind of 'ducting' was needed and if that was easy or difficult.

My dad's friend is an hvac guy and we worked along side him so we had so we professional guidance. The actual labor was easy - or I'm just numb to it (possibility). My dad's a pretty handy guy, he built his entire house and I grew up in a perpetual construction project. I'd say we are handier than most, but I have also learned you can do just about anything if you put your mind to it.

You might want to go half way; get some quotes from local hvac guys and interview them on some ways to save cash. If you did 60% of the labor duties yourself like running the lines, electric etc... And all they had to do was spend a half day setting it up I'm sure you get a cheaper price and also get the piece of mind of having a pro finishing touches and make sure it's right.

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