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post #31 of 55 Old 05-11-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post

This clearly wasn't the case on the 2010 HT Cruise AT screen seminar where it was clearly demonstrated by Tony Grimani, that a speaker will timbre shift at less then six inches behind a woven screen.
The effect is gone at 6". That seminar was a by product of a large two article by Widescreen Review. The effect is easily heard by running full range pink noise off a calibration disk, and holding a sample
of your speaker cloth over a speaker.

Good info. I wasn't aware of the article and have neither heard nor experienced the problem with the AT woven screen material. I have 8.5" x 11" samples of a number of different screen materials when I was making my own selections and I more or less "hung" the samples from the top of the speakers to hear if there was any differences between materials. The Stewart microperf sample had a very clear and immediate effect whereas the other ones didn't to my ears. Perhaps since both speakers had samples hanging over them at the same time this timbre effect was equal between the two speakers and therefore not heard from an uncovered speaker vs. covered. I was planning on a 6" gap anyhow between my baffle wall and screen wall, so all's good.

Do you have a link to the article? I couldn't seem to locate it. Thanks.


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post #32 of 55 Old 05-11-2013, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the late response, I'll try to get the thread back on topic.... smile.gif

So in regards to screen size, what I'm hearing is a) bare minimum sizes or b) not to trust the calculators / rules of thumb or c) wait until the PJ arrives and experiment? Unfortunately I need to at least get to a 'sane' estimate of a optimal screen size given an 11'6" standoff to determine how to configure the remainder of the room (secondary seating) etc. Can anyone provide some clear numbers or calcs that I can use for that purpose?

A second question relates to the 'standoff' of the AT screen from the wall per the above. If I am going the Seymour route, how far should the screen be offset from the front of the speakers? Or can I attempt to inset the speakers into the wall (I actually have that option with my double wall architecture) and then put the screen flush on the wall in front of them?

Thanks!
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post #33 of 55 Old 05-11-2013, 02:26 PM
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Most of those viewing angle charts are very conservative and date back to a time when projectors weren't as bright and sources were scaled.
There's also been a trend where many people have push the viewing angles and prefer a shorter seating distance. The important part is to be able to take in the
whole screen, and not have your eyes jumping around the screen, as this can cause eye strain. People also vary in their preferences so that should be taken into
consideration so yes, some experimentation can be wise. Your eye sight can also factor in, with seeing any screen weave with an AT screen. Bright scenes tend to
show weave if you have excellent eyesight and a short viewing distance.

The depth of an AT screen could be as little as 6" if using in wall speakers. Otherwise, individual speakers and their recommended situation from a front wall (and
any rear ports) should factor in. Speakers not designed for in wall use, shouldn't be recessed. A similar option would be a baffle wall but those tend to professionally
designed.

TMcG. I don't have a link to the Widescreen Review article. I attended that seminar, and the background information was first hand from Gary Reber.
(I believe Widescreen Review has all articles on a subscription service.) Tony used one speaker with full range pink noise and moved a large sample of
screen material and you could hear the timbre shifting and how the effect was gone at 6" or more.
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post #34 of 55 Old 05-11-2013, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post

...individual speakers and their recommended situation from a front wall (and any rear ports) should factor in. Speakers not designed for in wall use, shouldn't be recessed. A similar option would be a baffle wall but those tend to professionally
designed.
I just want to expand on what Tedd is getting at here, without writing a book hopefully. Most loudspeaker designers configure the crossovers and cabinet sizes with the idea that they will be listened to while positioned away from walls. That's a little bit of a silly idea because almost no one listens that way, but it's sort of the convention and at least can be trusted as a general fact for most speakers - especially anything that would be marketed as audiophile as opposed to something like a technical monitor - for near field monitors and other speakers marketed to professionals you can't assume this design approach, but there is more technical information available, so you don't have to assume anything. In-wall designs and some home theater specialty designs are exceptions as well. The consequence of this free-space design approach is that the bass is boosted through the design to accommodate the fact that low frequency sound will radiate in full space (behind the speaker) while high frequency sound tends to be much more directional. As a consequence of the omni-directional low frequency radiation, the apparent sensitivity of the speaker would drop by about three decibels as it begins to "waste" sound into the space behind itself. The speaker designer knows the frequency range that will be affected by this phenomenon based on the woofer characteristics, the speaker baffle size and any other electronic features of the crossover design - so he changes the crossover design to boost those affected low frequencies by about 3 dB to make up the difference. This is known as baffle step compensation. Why does this matter?

If you take a speaker with BSC built into it and then place the speaker on or in a wall, you double the already increased bass. Sometimes this can be accounted for with EQ, but that's not the best choice. The best choice is to use speakers designed for that placement.


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post #35 of 55 Old 05-12-2013, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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The more I think I know, the more I find I don't know.... biggrin.gif

OK, my home theater layout take 4....

Key Notes
Viewing Distance Prime viewing distance remains at 11'6" based on optimal audio location
Screen Width 105" based on reading a number of threads recommending that for a 1080p / 16:9 setup to shoot for roughly a 40 degree viewing angle / 2.4 screen width ratio to view distance
Screen Seymour 4k AT screen offset from the wall 12'. Speakers are 6" and this allows 6" from the face of the speaker to the screen
Second Row PC HT Row added w/ 10" platform based on viewing distance and expected screen height


How am I looking now? Again, I'll work the speaker layout later after the room layout itself is solid. Thanks!

Overhead:


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post #36 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 05:30 AM
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Much better, but a couple points:
  • There is no problem moving the projector to over the desk area with respect to throw distance, so I'd probably move it back over the desk FWIW.
  • Is the second row of seating supposed to be a representation of an office / desk chair or something that can slide underneath the desk?
  • How does the second row see over the bank of monitors you plan to have on your desk?
  • I know you are height-challenged, but you may want to bump up the riser height in the back another 2 inches. Every little bit helps when it comes to improving sight lines.
  • Why the 4K material with that projector? I would save the $$ and go for the XD instead, particularly for a modest system like this one.


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post #37 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 08:19 AM
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I'd suggest plush chairs for the second row, along the lines of the Fadum Theater. And invest in a motorised lift for the monitors,
so they hide away into the desk.

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post #38 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post

I'd suggest plush chairs for the second row, along the lines of the Fadum Theater. And invest in a motorised lift for the monitors,
so they hide away into the desk.

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post #39 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

  • There is no problem moving the projector to over the desk area with respect to throw distance, so I'd probably move it back over the desk FWIW.
  • Is the second row of seating supposed to be a representation of an office / desk chair or something that can slide underneath the desk?
  • How does the second row see over the bank of monitors you plan to have on your desk?
  • I know you are height-challenged, but you may want to bump up the riser height in the back another 2 inches. Every little bit helps when it comes to improving sight lines.
  • Why the 4K material with that projector? I would save the $$ and go for the XD instead, particularly for a modest system like this one.

Thanks for the feedback, to your questions
  • Will look into moving the projector. I had selected that position as it was 'mid-zoom' on that model for flexibility, but I can see the benefit of having it behind the prime seating area and should have enough zoom left to do that.
  • The second row is a large desk where the moitors / keyboard / mouse would sit. When folks come over (again very rarely) I'd remove the monitors, stash the keyboard / mouse and push the chair in to the corner. I'd then figure out some secondary seating that I could bring into the room on a temporary basis and remove when done.
  • Monitors would be removed, either just manually or via a lift system
  • Using a riser calculator with the first and second row viewing distances, it had recommended a 8" riser and I had bumped that up to 10". I understand the benefit of a higher riser, but was also trying to maintain an easy step up on to that platform and didn't want to get too high if not required?
  • Simply put, ignorance. I was speed reading / researching and glanced through a thread saying that the XD material had more issues with weave visibility at given distances and the 4k did not so I simply put that in as the placeholder. Thanks for the heads up, I'll have to go back and research in more depth as it sounds like it is a much more expensive material and overkill for my modest theater setup biggrin.gif
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post #40 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drandersoninc View Post

Using a riser calculator with the first and second row viewing distances, it had recommended a 8" riser and I had bumped that up to 10". I understand the benefit of a higher riser, but was also trying to maintain an easy step up on to that platform and didn't want to get too high if not required?

It really depends on your final selection for second row seating since that is still being decided. But as a hypothetical let's assume both rows of seats are identical theater recliners....I can tell you from first-hand personal experience that 8" is too low, especially when the second row is reclined. I had a buddy that built a very low riser and he almost always had the front row partially reclined to see over the backs of the chairs. Add in some heads from a 6' + tall person and it becomes more of an issue.

Look at it this way....anything over 7.25" and you have to add a step anyhow, so why not make it the height all the professionals use as their minimum?


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post #41 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Look at it this way....anything over 7.25" and you have to add a step anyhow, so why not make it the height all the professionals use as their minimum?

I understand what you are saying, and see the same mentioned here. What I am struggling with is that with the layout of the room now, and the intended usage of seating on that platform right behind that desk, I have a limited area to throw a step in there. The door swing prevents extending the platform any further out, and insetting a 10" tread depth into the platform where it is at even a nominal 18" wide would put that step right behind any chair on that side of the platform - and certainly no way to back that chair up if needed.

So now it looks like I have another conundrum - even if I assume chairs with an eye height of 44" (like my gaming rig chairs) the minimum platform height recommended is 7'9". And if I have to put a stair in there at anything over 7.25" that already forces me to have a step there that I cannot easily fit into the space to begin with.... T

he only other option I can see is to put the step on the opposite side towards the screen - I've got almost 2' to put one in there to meet code. It would just be a large step up if entering from the door to go directly on to the platform, or walking all the way around the sofa to 'take the stairs'...

I find it slightly ironic that in designing / planning the entire house I am having so much of an issue / complexity on this one single room...... mad.gif Ah the joys.. wink.gif
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post #42 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 11:41 AM
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I was talking immediately on the right as soon as you come into the door for a recessed step, provided you purchase individual chairs for the second row where you would be walking through the row in order to sit down.


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post #43 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I think we are talking about the same area for the steps, but I'll try to clarify my confusion. In the pic below (from my Home modeler program) you can see the desk and the PC chair in placement. The intention was to place seating in the red square area as my second row seating which would put the viewing at 15'. If I put a stair in the described area, I don't see how I can actually have a seating area (again, temporary chairs I move in and out of the room) as when they move the chair backwards it would fall into the step area.

I don't really have the option to put that seating against the wall and the stair shifted towards the desk either, as it then a) moves the viewing distance back another 2 ft and b) would require even more riser height to clear the visual obstacles. Between the desk and the rear wall I only have 3'6" to play with...

With the above in mind, can you help me better visualize what you are describing and how that would work in this space?

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post #44 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 01:40 PM
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My MS Paint skills are limited, but assuming that the riser goes all the way to the right wall and goes all the way to the back wall, you could put a small 24" step recessed into the riser like the picture below. This shouldn't obstruct anything as your previous drawing above shows the width between the back wall and the back of your seating to be 30". Let me know your thoughts.



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post #45 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Ah, ok - but I don't think I have that much room between the seating and the back wall with this current layout. I've attached another pics for reference, and I only have about 1'5" from the rear of the seat to the back wall and a total of 3'5" from the desk to the rear wall.

My initial thought was two seats in that area as shown, centered on the screen. In this configuration seat #1 would not be able to be pushed back (imagine a desk chair in the office) without dropping into the stair area (in yellow). And whoever sat in that seat would need to be able to use that area to enter / exit the seat I believe.

Because of this I was thinking the only other place a stair could be would be on the opposite side in the green area, but that relates back to the long walk to get over to it.... tongue.gif

Any other thoughts?

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post #46 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 02:53 PM
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The desk could be taller while the riser stays one step height. Taller rear seats.

The screen would be mounted with seated eyeballs about 1/3rd the way up the screen height, and
could be pushed slightly higher. If the front row neck angle becomes elevated, keep that elevation under seven degrees.

A side sight line diagram drawn to scale, would make sure the second row sees the bottom of the screen, over your 6' 1" body.
Design should start with seating.
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post #47 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 03:04 PM
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I don't think there would be any harm whatsoever in sliding everything forward by 6 or 7 inches so you could get a 24" (or so) wide step recessed into the riser as soon as you would come into the door. I'd definitely put a second step in the green area so there's not a huge sudden drop in a darkened room for the time your theater may be filled with guests who are unfamiliar with your room and layout.


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post #48 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

The traditional rule of thumb is that the best sound can be had 38% down the length of the room. .... 38% from the rear wall is about 11.5 feet from the screen....

UGH..... I just remembered this..... and just realized that when I changed to an AT screen the screen shifted out 1' from the wall but the speakers could not.... So right now I have the 'prime' eye / ear location 11'6" from the screen, and with the speakers sitting 6" behind that screen the distance from the speakers is 12' not the recommended 11' 6". I know this could be a nit pick - does it matter that much to redo all the calcs / sizing / placement because of those 6"?....
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post #49 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 03:54 PM
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I wouldn't redo them - I'd instead acknowledge to myself that 2 subwoofers with separate EQ can do a whole lot for low frequency response, and plan to do that instead. Two subwoofers is a more robust and reliable solution that relying on that rule of thumb anyway.

What's the harm in moving the side of the riser 11 inches and making the step the whole edge of the riser, near the door?


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post #50 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

My MS Paint skills are limited, but assuming that the riser goes all the way to the right wall and goes all the way to the back wall, you could put a small 24" step recessed into the riser like the picture below....


Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

What's the harm in moving the side of the riser 11 inches and making the step the whole edge of the riser, near the door?

As it seems you're both saying the same thing, which means either I'm either not relaying my thoughts very well or just not understanding what you're saying very well,sry frown.gif

I've updated the picture with my reasoning as to why I can't put a stair in that area. Focuing on seat #1, I envision that to be a typical type office chair. When that individual wants to get up from the desk, they will push that chair back in the direction shown by the blue arrow. If there is a stair in that area (yellow highlight) the chair will drop into that stair making for unhappy house guests. Am I missing something?

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post #51 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 05:04 PM
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I didn't say clearly what I meant. What I'm suggesting (and maybe no one else likes this idea) is that seats 1 and two both slide to their right, 11 inches. The step becomes the full width of that section of the riser - the full 3.5 feet. I know that getting all of that off-center is not a great solution - I'd be the first to say so if someone else suggested it, but it's a possible compromise that has high ease of use, IMO.


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post #52 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 05:11 PM
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+1 to Fred's great idea. The whole left side of the riser (or at least up to the desk area) is a long, continuous step.

Something like this (not to scale):


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post #53 of 55 Old 05-13-2013, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm with ya now, thanks. I'll need to mull that over but I see where you're going with that.

At this point I think I'm ready to start the speaker layout, so I'll post up a new thread in the Speaker forum and leverage this layout. Thanks again for everyone's help to get here!!
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post #54 of 55 Old 05-14-2013, 04:21 AM
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I bought a motorised lifting desk mechanism yesterday, via Ebay. It has a 200 pound lift capacity, and 20" of lift.

$T2eC16V,!zEE9s3!YZGbBQ32lN)9U!~~60_57.jpg 547k .jpg file

Seems to me, it could be the basis of a three monitor desk lift. A cheap 4" angle grinder could shorten the desk top brackets, and then the desk
top opening would be bolted to the to these brackets. A vertical panel could be hung from the top, and the three monitors could be attached to this panel.
Essentially a wide version of this:

top of desk cutout.JPG 36k .JPG file

The desk lift mechanism would be boxed in for a more refined finish and to hide and protect the monitors when recessed. The desk could be built shallower
then a standard desk, and extended to the wall, for additional desk top. Beneath the extended area of desk top, you could use Middle Atlantic rack rails, to
build the av rack (and you could put your computer into a rack mountable case also). The av gear could face the front of the room, and the computer face
the rear of the room if so desired. A 20"-24" deep rack and desktop would work.


bbbb.jpg 218k .jpg file

You could build the desk taller, and have a single height riser to the aisle. The shallower desk top could also buy some depth to deepen the riser. Two
plush rolling chairs then could fit on the riser, and act as a second row of seating. Gas lift adjustable height chairs.

room Capture.JPG 272k .JPG file
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File Type: jpg top of desk cutout.JPG (35.9 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg bbbb.jpg (218.0 KB, 6 views)
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post #55 of 55 Old 05-14-2013, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Great ideas, thanks. I'll look into the lift idea going forward, I like that thought....
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