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post #61 of 92 Old 11-20-2013, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Bill: what projector are you using and how far is the PJ from the screen?

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post #62 of 92 Old 11-20-2013, 12:46 PM
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How do you like those Sparks? Are the redesigns simply smaller cabinets?

I'm weighing those, Cat 8s (not yet ready) and Quested LT-8s. I going to have the Questeds to demo in the next few weeks.

How do you like their sonics?

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post #63 of 92 Old 11-20-2013, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I love the Sparks. Put them with a SubMersive stuck out into the room, cross them over at about 100hz and you will have a KILLER two channel system. As a surround complement to the Catalysts up front they are a perfect match given they use the identical mid-range/tweeter.

The new Spark will be the same but different. Same driver (I think) but different configuration. The old Spark is 11 inches deep and the new one is to be something like 8 inches deep. The new one will be a bit taller. Furthermore, the amp will be on the top (or bottom) so wall mounting will be more practical.

As for the Catalysts, I came from the traditional high end speakers. Apogee, B&W, Wilson, Thiel, Magnepan, and last was Dunlavy. I had the Dunlavy VI's when I switched to the Catalysts. The Dunlavy was probably the very best measuring speaker on the planet (impulse, frequency, step, phase, etc). I don't know how the Cat12C measures in an anechoic chamber but the in-room frequency response is stellar. That said, it is EASILY the most fun speaker I have ever owned - or heard. Dynamics out the ying-yang; ginormous sound stage; I don't know how loud they will play but I have yet to hear any kind of strain when I have had them really cranked. Pin point center image as well.

As you know, sonics are all about preference, NOT reference, otherwise their would be one very popular speaker. So you may be able to find a speaker you like better and if you do it may cost a lot more. Is, for example, the Wislon Alexandria XLF $200,000 speaker 5 times better than the newest Wilson Alexia? (which is about 1/5th the price)? I bet not but there are those who are willing to pay the price.
My bet would be there are speakers that are better for HT than the Cat12C's but I have never heard them - and what do they cost.

If I had all of the money in the world, I would not replace any of my Seaton speakers for HT use.

I have a friend who has the very best two channel system I have ever heard. Magico Q5's with external subs; dCS stack, all reference electronics; and a room within a room treated to the 9's. After hearing my two channel system (in my other room) his words, not mine: "you have 80% to 90% of what I have at about 1/10 the the price. And for home theater, your system is definitely better than mine". What more needs to be said?

And anyone who heard my previous room would tell you the same thing. An incredible home theater experience. And that is what it is all about !!!!! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #64 of 92 Old 11-23-2013, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Bill: what projector are you using and how far is the PJ from the screen?

I'm using an Epson 6020UB with a screen similar to yours - Seymour AT Centerstage XD (16:9 120" wide with 1.0 gain):
- 13' screen to the first row
- 18' screen to the projector

The plan in the new house is to put the projector in the adjacent rear equipment room. The unfinished theatre room dimensions will be approximately 19' W x 30' L x 9' H. However once the 5' false wall is factored in the projector throw distance will reduced to 25'. What I haven't done (yet) is to move the projector in my existing room back to a 25' throw distance and check to make sure that the picture is bright enough. Both the existing and new rooms are bat caves.

If there isn't enough light I can simply hang the screen from the ceiling at a throw distance more suitable for this projector. It's a very simple way to mount the screen and it's how it's mounted today. Continue to use this setup until I can convince the Minister of Finance that a new projector is in order. Buying a new projector at this time is not an option.

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post #65 of 92 Old 12-01-2013, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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It's been a while since I have posted. The soffits are all covered. I decided to cover them in black instead of gray as it looks more appropriate given the black floor molding. I also mounted the JVC PJ and A-Lens though this should be fairly temporary as I am waiting for the Sony 600ES to show up.

I am having a terrible time getting the screen frame to behave. Because I will be covering the screen frame with a masking system, I purchased the less expensive frame from Seymour. And what I did not know until it showed up is that the top and bottom piece come in two pieces each. I have tried multiple times to get the pieces to be straight after assembly but they refuse. Both the top and bottom pieces bend toward the middle of the screen as the location where the two pieces are jointed together. I have talked to Chris but his recommendations did not work.

If I were not using the masking system, this would not be a big deal as there is some amount of felt on the frame to deal with overscan. But since I am using the masking system and the edge of the facia is perfectly straight, it creates an issue trying to line up with a non-straight screen sdge. I have written an email to Chris looking for the next recommendation. Unfortunately, this issue has held up getting the theater completed by several weeks Frustrating.

I am also waiting for Mark Seaton to announce his new on-wall Spark so that they can be hidden in the columns I built. This, however, does not impact getting the theater up and running - only getting the final finished look.

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post #66 of 92 Old 12-01-2013, 09:25 PM
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This may have been discussed with Seymour already, but maybe Chris can fabricate a custom, solid top bar for you with the same connection points to the sides of the frame.  It'd be easier than packing up the whole screen and sending it on a one-way trip back to Seymour.  Having recently sold a projection screen, I can say that rolling that screen material is a heart-wrenching process that has you one edge until it's back in cylindrical form.

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post #67 of 92 Old 12-01-2013, 09:26 PM
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Chuck,

Can you post a picture of how the frame is constructed as we might be able to come up with a solution for you.

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post #68 of 92 Old 12-01-2013, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

This may have been discussed with Seymour already, but maybe Chris can fabricate a custom, solid top bar for you with the same connection points to the sides of the frame.  It'd be easier than packing up the whole screen and sending it on a one-way trip back to Seymour.  Having recently sold a projection screen, I can say that rolling that screen material is a heart-wrenching process that has you one edge until it's back in cylindrical form.

Apparently they make this frame where the top and bottom ARE one piece but I don't recall being offered this as an option. I will raise the question.

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post #69 of 92 Old 12-01-2013, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Chuck,

Can you post a picture of how the frame is constructed as we might be able to come up with a solution for you.

I am not at the house tonight and would need to remove the screen from the frame to be able to get a good photo. Depending on what options I get from Chris, I may take the material off and provide a photo. The screen and frame are currently laying on the floor in the theater. I have installed the mounting bracket for the masking system but need to get the screen issue resolved before I can proceed.

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post #70 of 92 Old 12-02-2013, 05:09 AM
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As a recent addition to the product line up Seymour has added the economy frame, I assembled one with Landshark1 and it was fine. I've also assembled the one piece and I do prefer that to avoid the problem you raise. On their web sight there is the Premier screen and the Economy screen that is the choice and the Premier is one piece. As background on this issue when a one piece screen is sold included shipping you need to understand that the shipping because of the long dimension runs between $2-300. If you go shorter it is under $100.

As I said I've had good luck with the two piece and they should be able to come up with a fix, I would think 3 z brackets properly spaced middle and sides, mounted with laser accuracy would fix the problem once the screen is on the wall and gravity takes over.
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post #71 of 92 Old 12-09-2013, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Update:

Seymour is sending me new top and bottom frame pieces for my screen. Should be here later this week or first of next. Then, after I re-assemble and mount the screen, up goes the masking system.

Mounted the front ceiling "cloud" of four GIK244 Bass Traps. That worked in my last room with 9 foot ceilings but this room has 8 foot ceilings. The way they are hung with 4+ inch airspace means they hang down 10 inches. So I will need to find a new way to mount them in the future.



The last of the GIK treatments will be installed this week --- three of the GIK GridFusors on the back wall under the existing 3 GIK q7d diffusers. I should not admit this but these will probably have virtually no effect at all nor were they recommended by GIK. But since the two Monster Traps on either side of the Q7D's are longer than the Q7D's, I could not stand the lack of symmetry --- so in go the GridFusors. They will be painted black to match the Q7D's .

This photo of the GridFusors are from the GIK website as mine are not painted or mounted yet.



I have positioned the front speakers and done some listening (stereo) with and without Dirac and I see the potential. Some fine tuning will be in order for speaker placement and also getting subs time-aligned with the front mains. One of the concerns I have had about this room was that it would turn out extremely dry. I have a large amount of absorption treatment in the room - the front screen wall has 2 inch abortive material behind the screen; the ceiling has four 244 absorptions panels; bass traps all around the soffits; bass traps in the front corners; Monster Traps on the back wall (2) and Monster Traps on the side walls (3 on each side). While these each have the Scatter Plate diffusion option installed, that is still a lot of absorption material in the room. The jury is still out about if I have over-damped the room. The good news is that if I have, I can incrementally remove various treatments (under the guidance of GIK) until we get the room where it needs to be.

Glenn (the "G" of GiK) plans to visit the room in a month or so. His company doesn't get to be involved in that many home theater room projects at all of the various levels (design,dimensions, wall construction, treatment, etc) so he has a vested interest in hearing how this room worked out.

As as side note and if you like Jazz, I just acquired these: http://jazzlegacyproductions.com/catalogdeal.html (19 CD's for $99.95). Most of the music is very good and some of the recordings are exceptional. These are what I was listening to after I go the speakers into what should be close to the final position.

Once the screen and masking system are up (and I have installed the three remaining room treatments), it will be time for final speaker placement and then calibration (Audyssey for HT and Dirac for music).

This has taken WAAAAAAAAAAY longer than I had imagined.

As for equipment changes, I am on the waiting list for Mark Seaton's new wall mounted Sparks and on the list for the Sony 600ES 4K PJ.

I changed my doors from exterior doors to solid wood doors and there was virtually zero difference in the amount of sound that came through the door. My next and last step will be to attach 3/4 inch MDF to the door exterior. If that does not work, I give up.

I am incredibly disappointed on how poorly the sound is confined to the room. If the upgraded doors don't make a huge difference, I will have spent a TON of money for nothing. I was not able (or more accurately chose not to ) spend the huge amount of money necessary to completely isolate the walls and ceiling since I would have had to completely tear out three existing walls. But I did double dry wall with GG, created tightly sealed doors and used the carpet underlay and sealed all of the outlet boxes. If the new doors stop leakage out of the door but sound is still getting into the bedroom downstairs, the last attempt will be to test the HVAC duct network by temporarily completely blocking them off from the rest of the house.

If that fails, I will upgrade my headphones rolleyes.gif

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post #72 of 92 Old 12-11-2013, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I laughed when I read this because that was exactly my choice as well.
Lets see, $ for a half decent set of closed cans or $$$ and endless headache (egress, ventilation, reduced space) trying to soundproof.

It is funny -- but not exactly. I don't know what portion of what I've spent on this room is for soundproofing but I know it is well over $10,000. It was over $3000 just for the green glue, underlayment, and door seals, etc + labor plus drywall plus ....

I could have purchased an amazing set of headphones and headphone amp for a lot less than that.

I am still hopeful that the door modification will help and if I determine that the AC vents are part of the problem.

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post #73 of 92 Old 12-11-2013, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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My PJ has landed at the dealer!!

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post #74 of 92 Old 12-11-2013, 12:27 PM
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My PJ has landed at the dealer!!

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the new projector once you've had a chance to set it up.

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post #75 of 92 Old 12-11-2013, 09:50 PM
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Hey Chuck,

 

I didn't realize you didn't de-couple the walls. There's another guy here on the Design/Construction thread that did everything right, but did not decouple his walls.  Based on his "lessons learned" post, his soundproofing efforts were 100% wasted. Based on the research I've done going through the threads here, I think de-coupling is the most important part of soundproofing. My advice is not to spend another dime on soundproofing and to just enjoy the room for what it is--awesome.

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post #76 of 92 Old 12-13-2013, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Chuck,

I didn't realize you didn't de-couple the walls. There's another guy here on the Design/Construction thread that did everything right, but did not decouple his walls.  Based on his "lessons learned" post, his soundproofing efforts were 100% wasted. Based on the research I've done going through the threads here, I think de-coupling is the most important part of soundproofing. My advice is not to spend another dime on soundproofing and to just enjoy the room for what it is--awesome.
Once the doors are modified, we shall where we are. But I am pretty sure I wasted a whole lot of money (and time) and got this advice from another "sound proofing" company (not Ted's). I specifically told them I would not be using clips and channels and they told me it would work. I thought I had contacted the correct company (similar name) but did not.

oops !!

That said, for two channel (with Dirac on my server) it really sounds great. Will run Audyssey today if possible!!

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post #77 of 92 Old 12-16-2013, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Chris Seymour sent me new single piece top and bottom pieces to the screen frame and this is a completely different animal. Very rigid, no sag or flex or bending. Got it mounted, and am almost finished installing the Carada CIH masking system. The Carada is an incredibly well designed, engineered and built product. It is designed with pieces necessary for safe shipping. Very cool.

I have been doing even more listening in 2 channel (with Dirac) and the room sounds VERY good thanks to GIK (and of course, Seton speakers). Our plan is to watch our first movie in the theater this weekend so I need to get Audyssey running.

The Sony 600ES is at the dealer but can't get it scheduled for installation prior to the second week in January.

Here is the picture of a portion of the back wall completed with all acoustic treatment installed.


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post #78 of 92 Old 12-17-2013, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Chris Seymour sent me new single piece top and bottom pieces to the screen frame and this is a completely different animal. Very rigid, no sag or flex or bending. Got it mounted, and am almost finished installing the Carada CIH masking system. The Carada is an incredibly well designed, engineered and built product. It is designed with pieces necessary for safe shipping. Very cool.

I have been doing even more listening in 2 channel (with Dirac) and the room sounds VERY good thanks to GIK (and of course, Seton speakers). Our plan is to watch our first movie in the theater this weekend so I need to get Audyssey running.

The Sony 600ES is at the dealer but can't get it scheduled for installation prior to the second week in January.

Here is the picture of a portion of the back wall completed with all acoustic treatment installed.


Great to hear that the top and bottom screen frames are working out for you.

Any ideas as to what you and your better half are going to watch this weekend to christen the room?

-- Bill --
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post #79 of 92 Old 12-25-2013, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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About completed:




These were taken without flash on my new Christmas present: Canon EOS 6D

Watched a movie tonight (Man of Steel) and was impressed that the picture quality is so good given I am on a lower gain screen and have done zero adjustments on the PJ (since I will be replacing in a few weeks). Movie sound needs some additional Audyssey work but 2 channel is sounding quite nice with Dirac.

The entry door to the theater needs painting since I switched to the solid core door and a few other small items need attention (like getting each of the panels on the front ceiling exactly level). But to the extent any of our theaters is ever complete, mine is close (until the next upgrade wink.gif ).

The next few "improvements" are: (1) Install my new Sony 600ES on the 8th; (2) install new Seaton Sparks that will fit in the columns I built for them once Mark builds them and (3) try the ever delayed but often promised Emotive Dirac based SSP. I use Dirac on my server and like it a LOT better than Audyssey.

But it's functional.

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post #80 of 92 Old 12-26-2013, 03:27 AM
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... I changed my doors from exterior doors to solid wood doors and there was virtually zero difference in the amount of sound that came through the door. My next and last step will be to attach 3/4 inch MDF to the door exterior. If that does not work, I give up.

I am incredibly disappointed on how poorly the sound is confined to the room. If the upgraded doors don't make a huge difference, I will have spent a TON of money for nothing. I was not able (or more accurately chose not to ) spend the huge amount of money necessary to completely isolate the walls and ceiling since I would have had to completely tear out three existing walls. But I did double dry wall with GG, created tightly sealed doors and used the carpet underlay and sealed all of the outlet boxes. If the new doors stop leakage out of the door but sound is still getting into the bedroom downstairs, the last attempt will be to test the HVAC duct network by temporarily completely blocking them off from the rest of the house.

First of all: I really like the look of the room and the sonic choices you made regarding speakers and treatments. You obviously know how to get good sound for an all together reasonable amount of cash. Kudo's to you. I am in the process of building a house with a semi-dedicated HT myself.

Now, about the sound proofing issues. Most likely you never had a realistic chance of keeping the noise inside the space. Even decoupling the walls and ceiling would not have been enough since (correct me if I am wrong) the floor is not decoupled. Sound proofing is not like acoustic treatment where you can get better result with every step you take. It's pretty much all or nothing. Not only attention to ALL surfaces including floors and details such as windows, doors and HVAC, you also need to apply ALL known principles to work together.

1/ Decoupling, including the floor. Make the cavity as wide as possible. Avoid triple leaf constructions. This indeed means tearing down that new drywall...
2/ Absorption: filling the cavity (partly) with fiberglas to avoid resonating.
3/ Add mass. Drywall is cheap. About floors: in his book "Home Recording Studio - Build It like The Pros", Rod Gervais claims that only a floating concrete slab will suffice and a wooden deck will most likely not. There are several grades of floating floors, but I think you'd need at least 3 inches.
4/ Add damping (Green Glue in between drywall). Replaces some of the demand for mass.

I think all in all you did less than half of the above? I don't mean to criticize you, but rather those "professionals" who fooled you. They should have warned you about the issues. Since you are clearly someone open for educated suggestions, you would have adapted the modus operandi for the soundproofing. They were obviously afraid to turn you away and loose a sale. Shame on them.

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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post #81 of 92 Old 12-26-2013, 06:07 AM
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But I am pretty sure I wasted a whole lot of money (and time) and got this advice from another "sound proofing" company (not Ted's). I specifically told them I would not be using clips and channels and they told me it would work. I thought I had contacted the correct company (similar name) but did not.

Can someone please post the URL to Ted's website. I would like to avoid getting advice from the wrong "sound proofing" company.

Thanks in advance.

-- Bill --
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post #82 of 92 Old 12-26-2013, 06:13 AM
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Pretty epic wow!

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CENTRE: KEF Q600c - FRONT L/R: KEF Q900
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post #84 of 92 Old 12-26-2013, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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First of all: I really like the look of the room and the sonic choices you made regarding speakers and treatments. You obviously know how to get good sound for an all together reasonable amount of cash. Kudo's to you. I am in the process of building a house with a semi-dedicated HT myself.

Thank you but what I ended up spending on the room would not be classified as a "reasonable amount of cash"smile.gif
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Now, about the sound proofing issues. Most likely you never had a realistic chance of keeping the noise inside the space. Even decoupling the walls and ceiling would not have been enough since (correct me if I am wrong) the floor is not decoupled. Sound proofing is not like acoustic treatment where you can get better result with every step you take. It's pretty much all or nothing. Not only attention to ALL surfaces including floors and details such as windows, doors and HVAC, you also need to apply ALL known principles to work together.

I was going to decouple the floor but the methodology proposed would have eaten about 2 inches of roomo height and since I only have 8 feet to start with, I chose not to.
I was NEVER told that it had to be all or nothing and I made it clear to the company I worked with that I would not do it all and they suggested nothing about all or nothing.
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1/ Decoupling, including the floor. Make the cavity as wide as possible. Avoid triple leaf constructions. This indeed means tearing down that new drywall...

Didi not do that
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2/ Absorption: filling the cavity (partly) with fiberglas to avoid resonating.

Did that
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3/ Add mass. Drywall is cheap. About floors: in his book "Home Recording Studio - Build It like The Pros", Rod Gervais claims that only a floating concrete slab will suffice and a wooden deck will most likely not. There are several grades of floating floors, but I think you'd need at least 3 inches.

Did not build a floating floor
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4/ Add damping (Green Glue in between drywall). Replaces some of the demand for mass.

Did that
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I think all in all you did less than half of the above? I don't mean to criticize you, but rather those "professionals" who fooled you. They should have warned you about the issues. Since you are clearly someone open for educated suggestions, you would have adapted the modus operandi for the soundproofing. They were obviously afraid to turn you away and loose a sale. Shame on them.

Shame on them is correct.

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post #85 of 92 Old 12-27-2013, 08:28 AM
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About completed:





These were taken without flash on my new Christmas present: Canon EOS 6D

Watched a movie tonight (Man of Steel) and was impressed that the picture quality is so good given I am on a lower gain screen and have done zero adjustments on the PJ (since I will be replacing in a few weeks). Movie sound needs some additional Audyssey work but 2 channel is sounding quite nice with Dirac.

The entry door to the theater needs painting since I switched to the solid core door and a few other small items need attention (like getting each of the panels on the front ceiling exactly level). But to the extent any of our theaters is ever complete, mine is close (until the next upgrade wink.gif ).

The next few "improvements" are: (1) Install my new Sony 600ES on the 8th; (2) install new Seaton Sparks that will fit in the columns I built for them once Mark builds them and (3) try the ever delayed but often promised Emotive Dirac based SSP. I use Dirac on my server and like it a LOT better than Audyssey.

But it's functional.

 

Very, very nice!  yeah Man of Steel is a great A/V movie (I think it's a great movie in general).  I am very interested in the fact the screen gain difference doesn't translate to a detrimentally dimmer picture.  That bodes quite well for the 600ES then!  The room looks great!

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post #86 of 92 Old 12-27-2013, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Very, very nice!  yeah Man of Steel is a great A/V movie (I think it's a great movie in general).  I am very interested in the fact the screen gain difference doesn't translate to a detrimentally dimmer picture.  That bodes quite well for the 600ES then!  The room looks great!

Thanks. It came out better than I hoped and two channel through Dirac is AWESOME !! HT sound needs some work.

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post #87 of 92 Old 01-17-2014, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Final post as the theater, with some small exceptions, is complete.

I am very, very pleased with the final outcome (LOVE the new projector). Audio (and video) is the best I have ever had (spent a small fortune on acoustic treatment).

Caution and word of warning: If you are planning on room isolation, do it ALL or save your money and buy better equipment. Leave out any single piece, and you will not be pleased with the final result. You need HVAC air control; sealed electrical outlets; air tight thick and solid wood doors; DD and GG; clips and channels, and if you are on a second floor, complete floor isolation. And if you find a room isolation company that says otherwise, go find another company !!

I did 90+% and instead should have bought the Sony 1000 instead of the 600 and still saved a whole lot of money.

Final equipment list:

VIDEO EQUIPMENT: Sony 600ES w/ Powered Panamorph Anamorphic Lens and sled and Sony 4K Media Player; Screen Masking System by Carada; Seymour Acoustically Transparent 2:35 120 x 51 inch screen (1.1 Gain - XD Material); Lumagen XD Video Processor (not currently in use);

SPEAKERS: LCR: Seaton Catalysts 12C Active Powered Speakers on sand-filled Seaton Stands; SUBS: Seaton SubMersive HP (4); Surrounds: Seaton Sparks (4) Active Powered Speakers

ELECTRONICS: Integra 80.2 SSP (with Audyssey Pro); APS 1050 Power Conditioner; APS 2000 Power Conditioner; Emotiva XDA-2 -- USB D to A Converter;

SOURCES: Music Vault Diamond Music Server (J River and J Remote for controlling my music server); Dirac Live room correction software running on MusicVault; Oppo BD103D Bluray Player which includes DARBEE DARBLET High-Defintion Image Enhancer; DirecTV DVR

ROOM STUFF: Theater chairs by Berkline; Room design and all acoustic treatment by GIK

MISCELLANEOUS: BlueJeans and Monoprice Interconnect Cables (XLR and Single Ended)

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post #88 of 92 Old 01-17-2014, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Awesome thread!

Two suggestions..
1. No Left and Right speakers behinds the screen?? You crazy?!biggrin.gif
AND
2. You must go bigger on the screen.

Jeff: I got to see a 14 foot wide (16 x 9) screen today (at my dealers - Atlanta Home Theater) with the Sony 1000. I do now understand the fascination with a screen that large. It really does feel (if sitting close) like you are in real theater. I was sitting too close as some of the screen was outside my field of view so head movement was required. I did not like that.

But as I said to another poster on another topic, I need to stop somewhere. I have just hit the retirement button and expenditures of this magnitude will come to a screeching halt. The video in my room with my new Sony 600ES is so much better than anything I have ever seen and the audio is awesome as well. I am perfectly OK living with a 10 foot wide screen.

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post #89 of 92 Old 01-18-2014, 04:55 PM
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I'm sure the 10' will suffice. Congrats!!

When is your expected delivery on the Sparks? I talked to Mark about them and it is close. I"m considering them myself.

I order a load of Seaton Submersives myself!

Looking good!

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post #90 of 92 Old 01-26-2014, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I order a load of Seaton Submersives myself!

And "a load" would be how many?

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